Pastoralis Praeeminentiae

[Rustikus]

46 minutes ago, Noctis Lucis Caelum said:

Blackatron is gov and when contacted about it, made clear TTK was fine his hostile actions against myself and any other scheming he was doing from your AA. So your gov was asked about why the aggression from AA and made clear he did not care about the aggression from him and made a dumb joke in response when asked why you guys kept him on the AA despite his hostile scheming. So you can blame Blackatron for representing as being supportive of any hostile actions taken by Gh0s7. Had he not kept Gh0s7 on your AA despite knowing he was plotting against others from your AA, maybe you guys wouldn't be in the position you're in.

 

Where did he make that clear? So far you have not shown anything to confirm that.

[Thrash]

8 hours ago, Noctis Lucis Caelum said:

Guess we'll see, I wouldn't place any bets on anyone in Oculus though.

 

Some should start cross their Ts and dotting their Is. It's coming. It's not you who needs to be worried, though.

[Vortagre]

 

9 hours ago, Noctis Lucis Caelum said:

 

You are TIE, so your comments reflect upon them. So I would hope you have the self control to stop making them look bad by defending aggression against us based on size; when TIE is a tiny little alliance as well. So based on your logic, if another alliance took hostile action against your alliance; that would be fine & any treaties you have wouldn't matter due to your size. So attacking TIE couldn't be viewed as a hostile act against anyone else in the Meridian.

Don't get me wrong I would be an hypocrite if I say the size some how justify what is not justified. My point is

9 hours ago, Vortagre said:

My point is that you can't bring Ghos7 actions against you here and pass it off as evidence of TTK's alleged/nonexistent conspiracy against the Church of Oculus.  

This is what I have been saying to you all this time and no Lucius wont tell me shut up if I keep making this point. You got sanctioned due to a specific reason, it maybe a misunderstanding, it maybe something else but still a very specific reason exists.

[Mandystalin]

Page 15, as promised.

 

The discussion appears to have tailed off, as it does.

 

Noctis is back with his 'TTK sanctioned me' claim, so I'll just re-post my original response

On 31/07/2017 at 6:22 AM, Mandystalin said:

If you cut out all the supposition (and unless I'm reading it wrong you seem to think Blackatron is our leader?) the only thing of substance is that Gh0s7 requested sanctions against you on behalf of an entirely different alliance (ie: not TTK). Now I really don't want to touch your history with a barge-pole, I'm sure it can rattle on for days about who did which to why. But Alliance A wanting 1-man micro B sanctioned equals Alliance C's crime? Sigh.

 

 

Oh there was this (expected) response

On 01/08/2017 at 5:47 PM, DeathAdder said:

 

You can wait until page 99, Oculus still isn't going to give you a further explanation than what its various .gov members have already given you.

 

The fact you actually expect us to justify ourselves to you on this shell of a planet is hilarious beyond measure. We don't owe you an explanation, and the only thing you can do about it is continue to cry over the fact. Suck it up buttercup. If you're both all about casualties, less whining, more burning for your Alliance.

The only reason I quote it is that it made me realise what this whole discussion reminded me of. You know those ridiculous arguments some couples have?

"I'm mad at you"

"Why?"

"Well if you don't know, I'm not going to tell you"

 

 

 

 

On 03/08/2017 at 3:58 AM, Auctor said:

I fail to see anything hostile RIA's done in this and am not sure why this conspiracy theory that they're at the bottom of it has developed. Does someone have proof of their involvement?

Oh my word, the irony...

(my bolding)

 

 

 

I know I've been giving specific page numbers for my return, but there seems no point in this because the discussion is going nowhere. Even I'm getting fed up of me popping in every few pages and pointing out that nothing has changed. I'll pop back if anything worthwhile happens...

[Lady Red]

Quote

A weeks worth of whining and outrage.

 

You know... some of ya'll could counter.  Just a thought.  Suggestion really.  Since I'm a good two years removed from politics of any sort and can only gauge by appearances, it does appear TTK doesn't have any treaties worth a damn, so it wont be an obligation.  But I would take it as a kindness.  Variety is after all the spice of life. 

[MaineGOP]

2 hours ago, Lady Red said:

 

You know... some of ya'll could counter.  Just a thought.  Suggestion really.  Since I'm a good two years removed from politics of any sort and can only gauge by appearances, it does appear TTK doesn't have any treaties worth a damn, so it wont be an obligation.  But I would take it as a kindness.  Variety is after all the spice of life. 

 

 

No treaties worth a damn? Well in some quarters optional are all the rage now. Also regardless even with an MDP why would we ask our allies and friends to throw their pixels away in a lost cause. do we have 1,000 nations to call upon, or let's be real, maybe even 500 would do it ;), probably not. so why ask another alliance of 50 or so members to come in and get curb stomped too? This is an unjust war but we will take it standing up and take down as many opponents as we can. The world can judge what happened and decide on their own if they can live with it.

[Lady Red]

13 minutes ago, MaineGOP said:

 

 

No treaties worth a damn? Well in some quarters optional are all the rage now. Also regardless even with an MDP why would we ask our allies and friends to throw their pixels away in a lost cause. do we have 1,000 nations to call upon, or let's be real, maybe even 500 would do it ;), probably not. so why ask another alliance of 50 or so members to come in and get curb stomped too? This is an unjust war but we will take it standing up and take down as many opponents as we can. The world can judge what happened and decide on their own if they can live with it.

 

If that's the case and it will likely be the case every time, I recommend canceling all treaties.  You're not doing them any future favors by redefining the word mandatory for them. 

 

 

[Noctis Lucis Caelum]

21 hours ago, Mandystalin said:

Noctis is back with his 'TTK sanctioned me' claim, so I'll just re-post my original response

The reasons for the war on you guys go well beyond Gh0s7's conspiring against Aevum; with Gh0s7 also having conspired against the entire bloc. Even if they have no need or reason to provide any evidence of it.

 

I only brought up Gh0s7's conspiring against Aevum so those treatied with you guys who I actually share mutual respect with don't jump head first into getting themselves rolled without realizing your alliance was engaged in hostile activities against my alliance; despite our Non Grata treaty; giving them reason to roll you guys based on that alone. So there is a defensive element to Oculus & Aevum hitting you guys for those who don't share the same view as you guys, in regards to knowing your member conspires on behalf of others making your alliance not liable for any aggressive moves he does. There is a reason many of the others who Gh0s7 conspires on behalf of would rather he be on an AA other than their own.

 

Its those who I share mutual respect with who would be those most likely to consider the Mandatory part in a MDP to mean just that, as well as having been around long enough to know regardless of who Gh0s7 may have been acting on behalf of; whatever alliance he's in is responsible for his actions when your gov knows about it. If you guys are incapable of realizing that, I think any type of mutual defense treaty with you guys will be seen as a huge liability for most alliance.

 

Gh0s7 plotting on behalf of many doesn't excuse you of liability; but instead a willing scapegoat for those he plots on behalf of. You can replace your example with Gh0s7 conspiring against Aevum with Oculus instead;, if people want a better idea of Oculus' main motivation here.

 

However having clarified this war is justified for those who don't share the same disrespect towards Aevum your gov has, I'm done bringing up the example here. However its obvious you guys were well aware Gh0s7 was plotting against Oculus and wanted him to succeed, or you wouldn't have taken the risk of being the easy scapegoat for the many he plots on behalf of. Those alliances who are friendly with Aevum know this war is justified, along with those who have common sense in regards to liability of harboring members; who plot of behalf of those who don't want a direct link being easily drawn to them if he gets caught.

 

Also for the record, Aevum has 2 members. So we're not a 1 man AA.

[Thrash]

11 hours ago, MaineGOP said:

 

 

Also regardless even with an MDP why would we ask our allies and friends to throw their pixels away in a lost cause. 

 

Cause it's what we do.  Just say the word. Ain't no point of saving them for some revolution that's never gonna happen. We'll take NG or Pacifica, the others have their !@#$ together and are kind of scary.

Edited August 6, 2017 by Thrash

[Master Hakai]

16 hours ago, Noctis Lucis Caelum said:

The reasons for the war on you guys go well beyond Gh0s7's conspiring against Aevum; with Gh0s7 also having conspired against the entire bloc. Even if they have no need or reason to provide any evidence of it.

 

I only brought up Gh0s7's conspiring against Aevum so those treatied with you guys who I actually share mutual respect with don't jump head first into getting themselves rolled without realizing your alliance was engaged in hostile activities against my alliance; despite our Non Grata treaty; giving them reason to roll you guys based on that alone. So there is a defensive element to Oculus & Aevum hitting you guys for those who don't share the same view as you guys, in regards to knowing your member conspires on behalf of others making your alliance not liable for any aggressive moves he does. There is a reason many of the others who Gh0s7 conspires on behalf of would rather he be on an AA other than their own.

 

Its those who I share mutual respect with who would be those most likely to consider the Mandatory part in a MDP to mean just that, as well as having been around long enough to know regardless of who Gh0s7 may have been acting on behalf of; whatever alliance he's in is responsible for his actions when your gov knows about it. If you guys are incapable of realizing that, I think any type of mutual defense treaty with you guys will be seen as a huge liability for most alliance.

 

Gh0s7 plotting on behalf of many doesn't excuse you of liability; but instead a willing scapegoat for those he plots on behalf of. You can replace your example with Gh0s7 conspiring against Aevum with Oculus instead;, if people want a better idea of Oculus' main motivation here.

 

However having clarified this war is justified for those who don't share the same disrespect towards Aevum your gov has, I'm done bringing up the example here. However its obvious you guys were well aware Gh0s7 was plotting against Oculus and wanted him to succeed, or you wouldn't have taken the risk of being the easy scapegoat for the many he plots on behalf of. Those alliances who are friendly with Aevum know this war is justified, along with those who have common sense in regards to liability of harboring members; who plot of behalf of those who don't want a direct link being easily drawn to them if he gets caught.

 

Also for the record, Aevum has 2 members. So we're not a 1 man AA.

Just curious, did you copy the word Gh0s7 and just ctrl+V it each time, or manually type it out? It took me a couple seconds to type it so I'm thinking the copy/paste idea would be ideal, although with the amount of times you were able to type it in this post, I could see how it may get to the point where not as much effort is required due to muscle memory. Let me know.

[Noctis Lucis Caelum]

23 hours ago, Thrash said:

 

Cause it's what we do.  Just say the word. Ain't no point of saving them for some revolution that's never gonna happen. We'll take NG or Pacifica, the others have their !@#$ together and are kind of scary.

Any revolution lead by Gh0s7 was bound to fail anyways, along with any alliances who would outsource all their plotting to him. Might want to find somebody who has more experience with that sort of thing; Gh0s7 seems like magnet for making enemies. He seemed to put a great amount of effort into convincing me to drop everything else I might have been planning and focus on him; when he decided to suddenly try getting my sanctioned everywhere & slandered on OWF; so he can act like he runs the white team; which he's not even on by getting others to sanction for him. For someone to lead a revolution, they would need to represent something better than the status quo; not worse if they had their way.

 

So placing your bets on any of these highly pro-sanction ex-Doom types is a sure way not to gain any support for any revolution; since wide spread use of sanctions without any restraint represents a worse era I think. Even if TTK's flag has some symbolism associated with Anarchism & Christianity; there actions seemed more authoritarian & lacking any kind morality. So even if their original leadership might have had these ideas in mind when forming the alliance and designing the flag; they have since been replaced by the opposite. 

 

People need to see the change would be positive for them to support a revolution, rather than reverting to a system where anybody can be sanctioned for any reason; with no moral or ethical code making them represent change worth having. If you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Noctis Lucis Caelum

[Mandystalin]

On Saturday, August 05, 2017 at 6:08 AM, Mandystalin said:

 I'll pop back if anything worthwhile happens...

And it has. Screenshots of the Discord conversation that are the reason behind the war have been posted in TTK's general (public) Discord, by their author. A censored copy of this convo was sent to us by Oculus as explanation for their attack, and that formed the rock of my 'you have no evidence TTK is plotting' argument. We were asked not to share the screenshots to prevent speculation as to their source, which we honoured, but that cat is out of the bag now. 

 

So please, go take a look and make up your own minds. ☺

[MaineGOP]

19 minutes ago, Mandystalin said:

And it has. Screenshots of the Discord conversation that are the reason behind the war have been posted in TTK's general (public) Discord, by their author. A censored copy of this convo was sent to us by Oculus as explanation for their attack, and that formed the rock of my 'you have no evidence TTK is plotting' argument. We were asked not to share the screenshots to prevent speculation as to their source, which we honoured, but that cat is out of the bag now. 

 

So please, go take a look and make up your own minds. ☺

 

As we said plenty, evidence of Ghost plotting but no evidence that TTK has any involvement. If anything most of Ghosts's plotting involved actions involving the white sphere... Now I'm not saying any of those alliances have done anything wrong, just that Ghost seemed preoccupied with that sphere more than our own.

[Noctis Lucis Caelum]

51 minutes ago, Mandystalin said:

And it has. Screenshots of the Discord conversation that are the reason behind the war have been posted in TTK's general (public) Discord, by their author. A censored copy of this convo was sent to us by Oculus as explanation for their attack, and that formed the rock of my 'you have no evidence TTK is plotting' argument. We were asked not to share the screenshots to prevent speculation as to their source, which we honoured, but that cat is out of the bag now. 

 

So please, go take a look and make up your own minds. ☺

You're implying Gh0s7 posted those screenshots based on pure speculation they are they are the evidence, without knowing the contents of whatever screenshots you were shown? Seems like a long shot he would suddenly post what looks likes him plotting against some random alliances without you guys sharing the contents of whatever screenshots they sent you.

 

I guess we'll see if anything changes from you guys posting some random screenshots. However them sending you some seemingly unrelated screenshots doesn't mean that is their evidence, lol.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Noctis Lucis Caelum

[MaineGOP]

27 minutes ago, Noctis Lucis Caelum said:

You're implying Gh0s7 posted those screenshots based on pure speculation they are they are the evidence, without knowing the contents of whatever screenshots you were shown? Seems like a long shot he would suddenly post what looks likes him plotting without you guys sharing the contents of whatever screenshots they sent you.

 

Although them sending you screenshot wouldn't necessarily mean they don't have more evidence beyond that & just showed you some of it to see what you'd do with it. Although I'm not sure what you're implying this has changed.

 

 

I think and we've discussed this plenty, it is you making the jumps based on speculation. Any personal conversations I've had with Ghost, the logs we can clearly see there, and his actions regarding you, also ghosts actions in attacking SNX, all show a player playing a bit fast and loose on his own and about ready to leave the planet most likely.  Nothing, nothing but speculation has tied Ghosts actions to TTK. 

 

Period. It's fine, it's not like I didn't expect Oculus to attack people without a real CB. The hegemony, no matter who it is has acted the same for a decade. Eliminate on flimsy evidence anyone who could possibly be a threat in the future. Once all outside threats are gone, take down internal threats. Rinse, repeat. It is the history of Bob.

[Noctis Lucis Caelum]

10 minutes ago, MaineGOP said:

I think and we've discussed this plenty, it is you making the jumps based on speculation. Any personal conversations I've had with Ghost, the logs we can clearly see there, and his actions regarding you, also ghosts actions in attacking SNX, all show a player playing a bit fast and loose on his own and about ready to leave the planet most likely.  Nothing, nothing but speculation has tied Ghosts actions to TTK. 

 

Period. It's fine, it's not like I didn't expect Oculus to attack people without a real CB. The hegemony, no matter who it is has acted the same for a decade. Eliminate on flimsy evidence anyone who could possibly be a threat in the future. Once all outside threats are gone, take down internal threats. Rinse, repeat. It is the history of Bob.

If you're being serious about this being the evidence shown to you guys, maybe they were messing around with you guys. Seems like a joke to me. (Evidence I've seen is different)

Edited August 7, 2017 by Noctis Lucis Caelum

[MaineGOP]

9 minutes ago, Noctis Lucis Caelum said:

If you're being serious about this being the evidence shown to you guys, maybe they were messing around with you guys. Seems like a joke to me. (Evidence I've seen is different)

 

I mean being shown to us, you saw who posted it, Ghost, they were his own logs... Now i'm not privy to what our gov has been shown so I don't know. 

 

But go ahead an post what damning evidence you have.... I'm not skurred.

[Mandystalin]

46 minutes ago, Noctis Lucis Caelum said:

You're implying Gh0s7 posted those screenshots based on pure speculation they are they are the evidence, without knowing the contents of whatever screenshots you were shown? Seems like a long shot he would suddenly post what looks likes him plotting against some random alliances without you guys sharing the contents of whatever screenshots they sent you.

 

I guess we'll see if anything changes from you guys posting some random screenshots. However them sending you some seemingly unrelated screenshots doesn't mean that is their evidence, lol.

Sigh. Nice try but poor logic

 

1) Not implying anything of the sort. Once we were sent the shots of Gh0s7's convo guess who we talked to...

 

2) Not us that posted them. It is an important distinction. 

 

3) Yes of course, they sent them for the lulz. Silly me. And there is yet more mythical evidence. Also, ain't it a shame that sarcasm is so hard to show in writing

 

 

But I do owe you one apology, I did not check on the membership of your alliance. My bad, I will be more accurate in future

[Noctis Lucis Caelum]

I guess we'll see if anything changes with what you've done here, but I consider your gov being perfectly fine with all the sanction stuff Gh0s7 pulled on me plenty of justification to fight without posting classified logs. Although I plan to see this through to its duration alongside our allies, regardless of what they decide.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Noctis Lucis Caelum

[Thrash]

2 hours ago, Noctis Lucis Caelum said:

Any revolution lead by Gh0s7 was bound to fail anyways, along with any alliances who would outsource all their plotting to him. Might want to find somebody who has more experience with that sort of thing; Gh0s7 seems like magnet for making enemies. He seemed to put a great amount of effort into convincing me to drop everything else I might have been planning and focus on him; when he decided to suddenly try getting my sanctioned everywhere & slandered on OWF; so he can act like he runs the white team; which he's not even on by getting others to sanction for him. For someone to lead a revolution, they would need to represent something better than the status quo; not worse if they had their way.

 

So placing your bets on any of these highly pro-sanction ex-Doom types is a sure way not to gain any support for any revolution; since wide spread use of sanctions without any restraint represents a worse era I think. Even if TTK's flag has some symbolism associated with Anarchism & Christianity; there actions seemed more authoritarian & lacking any kind morality. So even if their original leadership might have had these ideas in mind when forming the alliance and designing the flag; they have since been replaced by the opposite. 

 

People need to see the change would be positive for them to support a revolution, rather than reverting to a system where anybody can be sanctioned for any reason; with no moral or ethical code making them represent change worth having. If you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything.

 

Dude, Invicta doesn't even know who Ghost is. And here you go with the sanctions again making it all about you.

[Noctis Lucis Caelum]

8 minutes ago, Thrash said:

 

Dude, Invicta doesn't even know who Ghost is. And here you go with the sanctions again making it all about you.

Gh0s7 was also member of TTK until he jumped AAs right before this war & involved in most of the logs plotting to form a coalition against Oculus; while a member of the TTK AA. So Gh0s7's involvement goes well beyond his actions against me. He's even mentioned in the tags for thread "sorrygh0s7" & being rolled by Oculus. So that post wasn't all about me, it was mentioning he wasn't a good choice to follow in any type of revolution; seeing as its largely his fault TTK is being rolled right now. Since they knowingly harbored him on the AA as he was conspiring against Oculus & got caught.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Noctis Lucis Caelum

[MaineGOP]

17 minutes ago, Noctis Lucis Caelum said:

Gh0s7 was also member of TTK until he jumped AAs right before this war & involved in most of the logs plotting to form a coalition against Oculus; while a member of the TTK AA. So Gh0s7's involvement goes well beyond his actions against me. He's even mentioned in the tags for thread "sorrygh0s7" & being rolled by Oculus. So that post wasn't all about me, it was mentioning he wasn't a good choice to follow in any type of revolution; seeing as its largely his fault TTK is being rolled right now. Since they knowingly harbored him on the AA as he was conspiring against Oculus & got caught.

 

 

You keep leaping to knowingly harbored him while he plotted. There is yet any proof that anyone at TTK knew what he was doing.... You can speculate, but stop stating as fact.

[AlmightyGrub]

4 hours ago, MaineGOP said:

 

 

You keep leaping to knowingly harbored him while he plotted. There is yet any proof that anyone at TTK knew what he was doing.... You can speculate, but stop stating as fact.

 

I think what we can all take away from people arguing with Noctis about things that have nothing to do with the OP, based on the opinion of Noctis, who has nothing to do with the OP and no actual knowledge of the evidence used to support the OP and in fact absolutely no link in any way shape or form to the OP, is you are becoming less informed by the post.

 

As previously stated, leave the witch hunting to the witch hunters.  Noctis speculating out his navel and you debating the merits of the resulting pontification serves only to frustrate you and stroke the ego of someone completely irrelevant to the matters at hand to the point where you have convinced him he is important. 

 

You have received all the information you were entitled to receive.  If you feel aggrieved by what you have received because you erroneously perceive your entitlement to anything is higher than it is, then feel free to complain loudly to anyone who will listen.  Given that appears to be only Noctis, who is quite possibly insane, one could speculate that you are pretty much talking to yourselves. 

 

You, of course, have other options, but it seems accepting a completely ''unprovoked'' and ''unjustifiable' attack on your alliance stand without response, other than the gnashing of teeth and waving of arms, feels appropriate to you.  If only you had friends and allies who could relieve some of the burden.  Imagine their outrage upon finding an ally attacked under such circumstances, why it might even trigger that pesky Defense clause in those fancy treaties you all hold. Maybe martyrdom suits the Knights, but I don't think the poets will sing tales of your alliance when this crusade is finished. 

 

 

[Neo Uruk]

methrage will literally just go away if you stop responding to him every time he chases his own argument in a circle 

[Master Hakai]

I wish he would of answered my question about the word Gh0s7