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One year anniversary of our Love of NPO


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36 minutes ago, leeguy said:

 

NPO's new(ish) meatshield. Congratulations.

I actually did a poll on this back in 2015. While I can't repeat the exact wording on the OWF, the outcome was 11 for this, 10 against this, 6 were Unkajo, 16 wanted FoxFire photos, and 10 want Franz back. A tight race, to say the least.

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2 hours ago, Caustic said:

Apathy isn't an excuse. If you were that unhappy you should have cancelled. And ffs your return on investment for the relationship is directly on you. And just lol at "crappy" allies. We took your place, and did it far better :)

 

Should have done this, should have done that, but it doesn't keep me up at night, it really doesn't change anything at the end of the day. That we left a bad ally and their !@#$%* friends who we couldn't stand hanging - doesn't bother me one bit. It's like old PC/ujp people trying to make TPF feel bad for this and that and whatever else from the past, probably the most infuriating thing we can do from your perspective is just not give a $%&@, which we don't. 

 

For the record though, we came very close to cancelling the treaty, but you know, like allies sometimes do, we talked to them about it, talked about the things we were unhappy about, and they asked that we wait and let them try to address our concerns. 

 

I guess empty assurances are always an easy way to keep others in the fold. 

 

1 hour ago, Caustic said:

Maybe? It goes both ways. They've taken a hard D for us, given us plenty of opportunities in return. I'm not bitter about it :)

 

Ah, well good luck with that, just always keep in mind how much you really mean to them, but I guess at this stage, it probably doesn't matter very much. 

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4 hours ago, conistonslim said:

What in my comment led you to believe I thought NG was the primary target? Those are your words not mine. TPF/NPO relations were already strained at that point, I was trying to convince roadie to look at the big picture, that NPO/TPF was already done, that TPF were hanging on due to nostalgia and NPO were hanging on because TPF was an asset.  TPF could have stayed out of the war and suffered minor PR damage given the number of times they defended NPO and dissolving the treaty after the war. That scenario would have given them a better position to pursue whatever FA plans they had in mind.

 

TPF was too inactive to be much of a military or a political asset at that point.   We were holding on to them specifically because there's no good way to cancel a  treaty with an AA that basically killed itself for you in the biggest, most devastating war in your entire history and we didn't want to deal with the internal backlash from our members.  I know what the reasons for hanging on to TPF were because I came up with them all, all the way up until Disorder...   and I feed everyone in gov that !@#$%^&* because apparently I'm a sentimental idiot.

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22 hours ago, Lady Red said:

 

TPF was too inactive to be much of a military or a political asset at that point.   We were holding on to them specifically because there's no good way to cancel a  treaty with an AA that basically killed itself for you in the biggest, most devastating war in your entire history and we didn't want to deal with the internal backlash from our members.  I know what the reasons for hanging on to TPF were because I came up with them all, all the way up until Disorder...   and I feed everyone in gov that !@#$%^&* because apparently I'm a sentimental idiot.

 

Eh we've already had a discussion about our leaders activeness, you're aware of our opinion on that.

 

Militarily I'm happy with our performance in most wars. It's obvious to everyone we've never had much of an upper tier due to all the wars we've been involved in. It's an extremely rare occurrence for us to sit out wars unlike most other alliances, so we were never really able to build the upper tiers. To compensate for that we made it a goal to get 1:1 infra tech ratios and if you had 4 or 5k infra $1 billion dollar plus warchests, so that we could absolutely dominate in the mid range, and we did. I understand the argument that wars are won by the upper tiers, but in order to accomplish that we would have had to sit out a war which is reeeeally boring.

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On 2/15/2017 at 10:22 PM, Mogar said:

I mean, I completely agree and likely am in an alliance that is going to get rolled by said top alliances simply for existing, but there's no possible scenario in which the rest of the world can do anything about it, so until someone in IRON NPO or Umbrella wishes to actually do something new, we're literally going to have to all sit here and watch Oculus destroy the rest of the planet.

 

 

I wouldn't say no possible scenario. NPO and NpO have been reduced to ashes before. They've always been allied to all the top alliances. It just takes the right circumstances and a couple of those top alliances to turn before they get turned on and the rest of the world joining in.

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8 minutes ago, MaineGOP said:

 

 

I wouldn't say no possible scenario. NPO and NpO have been reduced to ashes before. They've always been allied to all the top alliances. It just takes the right circumstances and a couple of those top alliances to turn before they get turned on and the rest of the world joining in.

 

I hear an echo

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Just now, Rayvon said:

 

I hear an echo

*shrugs

 

I just find it entertaining to be gone from the game for probably 7 or 8 years and see the same drama and same discussions when I come back. Nothing ever changes, nothing is new. I am curious how they got back on top though, when I left we had defeated them. I don't remember the terms though, I guess they weren't harsh enough lol.

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15 minutes ago, MaineGOP said:

*shrugs

 

I just find it entertaining to be gone from the game for probably 7 or 8 years and see the same drama and same discussions when I come back. Nothing ever changes, nothing is new. I am curious how they got back on top though, when I left we had defeated them. I don't remember the terms though, I guess they weren't harsh enough lol.

Everyone has created a super bloc around NPO just like the Q era, but I I think we'll see a similar division later.

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45 minutes ago, MaineGOP said:

*shrugs

 

I just find it entertaining to be gone from the game for probably 7 or 8 years and see the same drama and same discussions when I come back. Nothing ever changes, nothing is new. I am curious how they got back on top though, when I left we had defeated them. I don't remember the terms though, I guess they weren't harsh enough lol.

 

I just meant that what you said to Mogar was essentially what he said .. 

 

This world has always been stuck in the rinse-repeat cycle .. Although each time there's a little less on the outside .. This time, Occulus got everything that wasn't a micro or the very very few of us not wanting to be aligned (everyone wants a place at the big table, whether they earn their way their or there's a hand up their ass under the table) .. The only hope for 'something to happen' - as Mogar said, and as NLC alludes to above - is a fracture within the power structure. Those events you mention where they were allied to the tops and still burned to ash, it was fractures in the power structures that caused the downfall because there wasn't enough on the outside alone to do it ..

 

Occulus won't fall from outside influence, it will only fall from the inside. Whether it be dramatic or not dramatic, it will be an inside power.

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Oh.. but something will change... this relative peace planet BOB lives right now, is the falsest of all.  Treaties, agreements, non-aggression pacts, you name it.  Those that are naive enough to rely on that status quo will be the ones to fall with it.  Cause guess what?... there's a lot of people out there silently sharpening their knifes, hoping for a little spark that triggers a big ass war that changes how the game is being played.  This "status quo" won't last forever.  All it takes is boredom and a !@#$load of money.

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54 minutes ago, Kapleo said:

Cause guess what?... there's a lot of people out there silently sharpening their knifes, hoping for a little spark that triggers a big ass war that changes how the game is being played.  This "status quo" won't last forever.  All it takes is boredom and a !@#$load of money.

Please let this be true.

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1 hour ago, Erwin Schrodinger said:

Please let this be true.

I mean, half of the people in the bloc you're in would roll you if given the chance, just as your alliance likely would do the same to at least two others in Oculus.

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1 hour ago, Mogar said:

I mean, half of the people in the bloc you're in would roll you if given the chance, just as your alliance likely would do the same to at least two others in Oculus.

Possibly. Or they could just let us be shock troops until we get bored and leave.

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2 hours ago, Mogar said:

I mean, half of the people in the bloc you're in would roll you if given the chance, just as your alliance likely would do the same to at least two others in Oculus.

Oh this sounds like a Karma situation. Given the similarity, and your apparent extensive knowledge on the subject, I assume you'll no longer preach about there being nothing that can be done to topple Oc, and instead you'll start working behind the scenes to help such a situation come to fruition. It would mean splitting Oc and hopefully arranging it to fight itself (possibly using such rampant hatred of NG as a focal point?), while also arranging non-oc parties to come in and make sure the deed is done.

 

Oh look, you have me rambling on about my dreams. I'm terribly sorry.

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3 hours ago, Erwin Schrodinger said:

Oh this sounds like a Karma situation. Given the similarity, and your apparent extensive knowledge on the subject, I assume you'll no longer preach about there being nothing that can be done to topple Oc, and instead you'll start working behind the scenes to help such a situation come to fruition. It would mean splitting Oc and hopefully arranging it to fight itself (possibly using such rampant hatred of NG as a focal point?), while also arranging non-oc parties to come in and make sure the deed is done.

 

Oh look, you have me rambling on about my dreams. I'm terribly sorry.

If I were to hypothetically waste the time and energy to force a grouping that seems content with the slow death of this planet and apparently holds no ambitions beyond the occasional war against anyone who refuses to leech off their cool kids club to actually care about this world once more and not another world, IRON appears to be the weakest link, and least likely for those in Oculus to actually have a desire to maintain within the grouping, but I also have no major ambition to make that occur since I hold a FAP with IRON and have no intentions of ever going against the spirit of that longstanding document.

The main issue with this line of thinking is that NG would not really be a priority target for ire within Oculus, due to the nature of not being one of the sanctioned ones. Logic dictates the largest threats and thereby the easiest to grow a coalition towards within Oculus to the rest of Oculus would be those within the sanctioned tier of alliances, by their very nature of having better resources and the unique capabilities those allow for. Pacifica's recent drive into the super tier by using their own nations essentially as land and tech farms in the upper tier is a great example of what could hypothetically be done with any of the larger populated alliances(anyone down the list to about VE, or so), should they have the desire to.

If you actually wanted the world to change someone larger than yourself would have to be the receiver, Karma was NPO's, EQ was Umb's, IRON got smacked around in a few wars but I can't think of any where they were the primary source of the collective dislike required to maintain a coalition, at least from my experience watching the various wars upon our planet transpire..

Not to mention after watching Brehon and a few others spend the energy required to actually spend the necessary time juggling plates that is maintaining an actual coalition and not simply a signifigantly larger grouping beating on someone a tenth or less their size, I would be concerned about my ability to actually do anything else for several months of life for this planet which sort of feels like it could be a simulation, perhaps of nations or a recreation of children of the flies I suppose.

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1 hour ago, Mogar said:



Not to mention after watching Brehon and a few others spend the energy required to actually spend the necessary time juggling plates that is maintaining an actual coalition and not simply a signifigantly larger grouping beating on someone a tenth or less their size, I would be concerned about my ability to actually do anything else for several months of life for this planet which sort of feels like it could be a simulation, perhaps of nations or a recreation of children of the flies I suppose.

So you're saying it wouldn't be worth the effort? I mean I agree with that then.  Going to be honest, a recurring theme in your posts is an assumption of  an energy level that just isn't there on this planet. Junka has pointed out it doesn't exist within your alliance and it doesn't exist in many more so relying on other people to be willing to put in the hours you are not willing to put in yourself is pretty foolhardy. The longevity of this world encourages people to stick around even when they've checked out because their nations are keepsakes, meaning very little of the population is willing to seriously engage. The barrier to entry makes it so newer people who would be more energized can't impact things.  Expecting a Karma-level of engagement when the appeal is no longer there for most is dumb.

 

If it's not worth the effort, then don't complain.

Edited by Monster
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2 hours ago, Monster said:

 

So you're saying it wouldn't be worth the effort? I mean I agree with that then.  Going to be honest, a recurring theme in your posts is an assumption of  an energy level that just isn't there on this planet. Junka has pointed out it doesn't exist within your alliance and it doesn't exist in many more so relying on other people to be willing to put in the hours you are not willing to put in yourself is pretty foolhardy. The longevity of this world encourages people to stick around even when they've checked out because their nations are keepsakes, meaning very little of the population is willing to seriously engage. The barrier to entry makes it so newer people who would be more energized can't impact things.  Expecting a Karma-level of engagement when the appeal is no longer there for most is dumb.

 

If it's not worth the effort, then don't complain.

I am saying there is no boogeyman to muster up a coalition to fight oculus as all of you so desperately want to occur, one of you has to actually want to move past Oculus for the world to continue, I could sit online 24/7 on every single alliance forum and discord and irc channel possible, you all don't seem to grasp that nobody is willing to move until you all decide who is not part of the cool kids club anymore. The only way this hypothetical Karma that you all supposedly want yet none of are willing to actually put you statistics at risk for happening is when one of you decides it is time, you cannot expect the rest of the world to just actively plot against you when there's no possible route to a victory condition beyond multiple someones in Oculus betraying the rest of the group.

The appeal could easily be regained with different set of politics, but apparently ideology no longer exists on our world, merely treaties of survival. There's plenty of well deserved grudges have fallen to the wayside, why bother taking revenge when you can simply ally them and do nothing instead?

Additionally Roq, run the statistics yourself, I know for certain you are intelligent enough to run the scenarios, how would a hypothetical war between everyone in Oculus vs the rest of the planet sans the neutrals play out? Your own alliance's claim that Eq was a victory is reasonable considering the upper tier advantage, with NPO and Umbrella's incestuous relationship continuing for what appears to be the rest of this planet's existence, what possible scenario could lead to a victory with even just those two on the same side?

I grasp the concept of "You're just mad we're winning with dem statistics!" but at what point does the planet matter more than ending it on top? Who are you all saving the 20+ billion warchests for?

Edited by Mogar
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1 hour ago, Mogar said:

I am saying there is no boogeyman to muster up a coalition to fight oculus as all of you so desperately want to occur, one of you has to actually want to move past Oculus for the world to continue, I could sit online 24/7 on every single alliance forum and discord and irc channel possible, you all don't seem to grasp that nobody is willing to move until you all decide who is not part of the cool kids club anymore. The only way this hypothetical Karma that you all supposedly want yet none of are willing to actually put you statistics at risk for happening is when one of you decides it is time, you cannot expect the rest of the world to just actively plot against you when there's no possible route to a victory condition beyond multiple someones in Oculus betraying the rest of the group.

The appeal could easily be regained with different set of politics, but apparently ideology no longer exists on our world, merely treaties of survival. There's plenty of well deserved grudges have fallen to the wayside, why bother taking revenge when you can simply ally them and do nothing instead?

Additionally Roq, run the statistics yourself, I know for certain you are intelligent enough to run the scenarios, how would a hypothetical war between everyone in Oculus vs the rest of the planet sans the neutrals play out? Your own alliance's claim that Eq was a victory is reasonable considering the upper tier advantage, with NPO and Umbrella's incestuous relationship continuing for what appears to be the rest of this planet's existence, what possible scenario could lead to a victory with even just those two on the same side?

I grasp the concept of "You're just mad we're winning with dem statistics!" but at what point does the planet matter more than ending it on top? Who are you all saving the 20+ billion warchests for?

I think we have a misunderstanding here. I'm not saying we're desperate for it to occur. That discussion started because Kapleo mentioned the world was on the brink of something.  The replies to it were pretty dismissive and sarcastic.  Here's what I'm getting at it, it's not that just no one is willing to move: it's very few people are capable of moving at all. Inertia is the reason many people keep existing here.  Part of the reason Oculus appealed to people is because people got tired of herding cats with coalitions that were more akin to amorphous blobs with low overall commitment/activity and getting outcomes that weren't truly decisive or backfired. 

 

There hasn't been any ideology for quite some time. Pragmatism has ruled the day for years. The thing with grudges is you end up repeating the same thing over and over and a lot of the times  the differences are ones that can be worked through or fade over time. Usually a grudge will be something only certain parties are particularly invested in, while a war  based on single alliance's grudges is a coalition effort so someone is having to marshal a coalition of people who usually aren't as committed and would come up short in terms of objectives. So when grudges faded, repeating the same wars became a pointless endeavor.  That's kind of the issue with it being largely the same people and everyone knowing each other. There haven't been any new power players popping up on the scene which is symptomatic of a general decline in interest.  The decline in interest has been there for years and it was evident even when there was a bipolar dynamic. Certain parties had to carry more and more of the burden. Even they have experienced huge declines in interest over time. You keep misreading the issue since it's really not one of the politics killing the planet here, it's the planet's decay due to lasting so long that has eroded traditional politics. I'm pretty sure the sanction requirement for alliances had to be changed before Oculus.  Since you seem to think basically the same alliances should fight each other constantly as they'd be the only ones capable of taking each other out, it'd lead to a similar stagnation and eventually one side would no longer be capable of providing resistance.

 

Again, I didn't say it was necessarily possible to win vs Oculus. Other people have been able to minimize the overall impact Oculus has on their existence and operate in almost parallel systems. There are also always adaptations people can make to be more effective even when the odds are against them. 

 

There's no real reason for anyone to go out of their way to make things interesting currently for its own sake.It's more likely more and more people will just depart  and alliances will fold and it won't be because the politics, it'll be because they don't care about the planet itself to the extent the politics are immaterial.  For the average person who has been a sustaining member of an established alliance, you'll find very little interest in the details of politics and it has always been like that and when they depart they'll have just tired of the routine and not make time for it like they previously had or it will be an afterthought. The alliances that are going the strongest are ones where the internal community is the main way people engage.  Outside of a very niche demographic, settings like these inevitably lose their luster. The only thing that would make it more sustainable would be a lot more fresh blood, not anyone going out of their way to please the small slice of the population that currently reads these forums for a short period of time before another centralization of power would occur. 

 

 

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On 2017-03-01 at 1:51 PM, Caustic said:

I don't dispute IRON's culpability in !@#$@#$ over NG in that conflict. I don't think anyone on their current council would argue otherwise. Here's what it boils down to, I caused that war by handing out a very valid CB but you think NG was actually the target? Come on, you're smarter than that. Chef $%&@head and friends wanted a revenge shot at NPO and I just happened to give them an easy in.

I'm not defending TPF's actions in that war. However, you probably should know that NG was a primary target for a lot of people in that war; the coalition was essentially a bunch of people who either wanted to get NPO or NG banding together, which is partly why it was sort of ... discordant.

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