Shoulda been a Cowboy Update

[Inferno]

For Steve!

Errr, sorry wrong topic.
 

Who are AGW Overlords anyways.

[Auctor]

The comparisons to FAN and \m/ are amusing as all get out. Are you ok Caliph?

[White Chocolate]

11 hours ago, Caliph said:

Some feel so slighted they would rather eternal war then quit than to surrender.

 

 

 

So far, the only return offer that I've seen mentioned from the SPaTR side of SPaTR-Oculus war is "white peace."  If a government person from one of those alliances has offered anything more to anyone in government in Oculus, feel free to correct my understanding.

 

If no one has, if they want to fight eternal war because Oculus says "no" to "white peace" I can't feel sorry for them any more than I feel sorry for Methrage when he does the same thing.  I really don't get what they have to be so slighted about.  SPaTR and/or bones have been pushing against Oculus alliances for a bit.  I'm not necessarily making a moral judgment about that.  They are free to push or not as they like.  However, at some point, if you push too hard then don't be surprised if the other side does actually "do something about it" at some point. 

 

You can say what you want, Caliph, but in my opinion most people are not going to be at all sympathetic to an alliance that would rather fight forever than say the words "we surrender" when they have clearly been out played. 

11 hours ago, Caliph said:

 

 

The only saving grace is you people might get bored at some point.  But thats it, its not like anyone can do anything about it that you couldn't just easily take.  

I don't see that happening anytime soon if other alliances keep handing Oculus a very traditional CB such as the one The Sandstorm Confederacy gave them.  I'm not saying that I agree with all the wars declared by members of Oculus.  However from what has been stated in pubic by both sides in that particular war, I don't blame Sengoku,GLoF, NPO or anyone else for having an issue with the response.  Worst I can say about Oculus is they apparently dropped the ball on their staggering of the nation. 

11 hours ago, Blackatron said:

 

My point being, if Oculus has had some problems with PoW's in the past that is really just being used as an excuse at this point, or did they think there would be no genuine surrenders after months and months of war?

I do have sympathy to people sincerely wanting to surrender.  However, based entirely on the explanation given here

I can see how reasonable people inside Oculus might see that as NOT a sincere attempt to individually surrender.  To be fair to you, Blackatron, that was posted after you commented and not before.

Edited July 4, 2016 by White Chocolate

[Alexio15]

20 hours ago, Auctor said:

 

We held a vote on being at war with SPaTR and MONGOLS 5 months ago. Everyone has to respect votes!

Wow democracy does still live... 

[murtibing]

14 hours ago, White Chocolate said:

So far, the only return offer that I've seen mentioned from the SPaTR side of SPaTR-Oculus war is "white peace."  If a government person from one of those alliances has offered anything more to anyone in government in Oculus, feel free to correct my understanding.

 

If no one has, if they want to fight eternal war because Oculus says "no" to "white peace" I can't feel sorry for them any more than I feel sorry for Methrage when he does the same thing.  I really don't get what they have to be so slighted about.  SPaTR and/or bones have been pushing against Oculus alliances for a bit.  I'm not necessarily making a moral judgment about that.  They are free to push or not as they like.  However, at some point, if you push too hard then don't be surprised if the other side does actually "do something about it" at some point. 

 

You can say what you want, Caliph, but in my opinion most people are not going to be at all sympathetic to an alliance that would rather fight forever than say the words "we surrender" when they have clearly been out played. 

 

 

As far as I know, Oculus has not issued any peace offer to SPATR or MONGOLS, aside from some members of Oculus alliances sending peace offers to some members of SPATR and MONGOLS.

 

[Caliph]

16 hours ago, White Chocolate said:

So far, the only return offer that I've seen mentioned from the SPaTR side of SPaTR-Oculus war is "white peace."  If a government person from one of those alliances has offered anything more to anyone in government in Oculus, feel free to correct my understanding.

 

If no one has, if they want to fight eternal war because Oculus says "no" to "white peace" I can't feel sorry for them any more than I feel sorry for Methrage when he does the same thing.  I really don't get what they have to be so slighted about.  SPaTR and/or bones have been pushing against Oculus alliances for a bit.  I'm not necessarily making a moral judgment about that.  They are free to push or not as they like.  However, at some point, if you push too hard then don't be surprised if the other side does actually "do something about it" at some point. 

 

You can say what you want, Caliph, but in my opinion most people are not going to be at all sympathetic to an alliance that would rather fight forever than say the words "we surrender" when they have clearly been out played. 

I don't see that happening anytime soon if other alliances keep handing Oculus a very traditional CB such as the one The Sandstorm Confederacy gave them.  I'm not saying that I agree with all the wars declared by members of Oculus.  However from what has been stated in pubic by both sides in that particular war, I don't blame Sengoku,GLoF, NPO or anyone else for having an issue with the response.  Worst I can say about Oculus is they apparently dropped the ball on their staggering of the nation. 

I do have sympathy to people sincerely wanting to surrender.  However, based entirely on the explanation given here

I can see how reasonable people inside Oculus might see that as NOT a sincere attempt to individually surrender.  To be fair to you, Blackatron, that was posted after you commented and not before.

Oculus has not allowed SPATR or Mongols to surrender.  Not as alliances and not for individual members who may want to.

 

Oculus intends to set an example with these current wars to never $%&@ with Oculus or you will face perma war.  ZT and ZI to all who dare oppose Oculus.

[Auctor]

How very dare Oculus pursue war alliances it is at war with and refuse any kind of acceptable peace!

[James Spanier]

2 hours ago, Caliph said:

Oculus has not allowed SPATR or Mongols to surrender.  Not as alliances and not for individual members who may want to.

 

Oculus intends to set an example with these current wars to never $%&@ with Oculus or you will face perma war.  ZT and ZI to all who dare oppose Oculus.

 

You know, I think my favorite part of these ongoing debates about how unfairly SPATR and MONGOLS are being treated is that the groups that would have had the most sympathy for them in the past were at the receiving end of what they called unfair treatment by groups SPATR and MONGOLS are and were affiliated with (and partially made up of).

 

The moralists are gone: defected, destroyed, and/or relegated to isolated corners. The only people that truly care about the plight of SPATR and MONGOLS are the very friends of theirs that destroyed the original moralists to begin with.

 

When you play the big and untouchable baddies don't be surprised that should the reckoning come those you spent so much time earning the ire of care not for your tears.

[Canik]

The real crime here in my eyes is Auctor getting 'shoulda been a cowboy' stuck in my head.

[The Zigur]

9 hours ago, James Spanier said:

 

You know, I think my favorite part of these ongoing debates about how unfairly SPATR and MONGOLS are being treated is that the groups that would have had the most sympathy for them in the past were at the receiving end of what they called unfair treatment by groups SPATR and MONGOLS are and were affiliated with (and partially made up of).

 

The moralists are gone: defected, destroyed, and/or relegated to isolated corners. The only people that truly care about the plight of SPATR and MONGOLS are the very friends of theirs that destroyed the original moralists to begin with.

 

When you play the big and untouchable baddies don't be surprised that should the reckoning come those you spent so much time earning the ire of care not for your tears.

 

There is some truth to this post but I don't know if the "moralists" are gone so much as they are in hibernation during a very cold and long winter. Maybe some lessons were learned as well; a moral order cannot survive without realism.

 

I do think that any rejuvenation of moralism won't be by that name or necessarily looking much like Dajobo's NpO or the Cult of Justicia, but will instead be a result of tired nations choosing for themselves alliances with stable and codified FA approaches.

Edited July 6, 2016 by Immortan Junka

[Caliph]

10 hours ago, James Spanier said:

 

You know, I think my favorite part of these ongoing debates about how unfairly SPATR and MONGOLS are being treated is that the groups that would have had the most sympathy for them in the past were at the receiving end of what they called unfair treatment by groups SPATR and MONGOLS are and were affiliated with (and partially made up of).

 

The moralists are gone: defected, destroyed, and/or relegated to isolated corners. The only people that truly care about the plight of SPATR and MONGOLS are the very friends of theirs that destroyed the original moralists to begin with.

 

When you play the big and untouchable baddies don't be surprised that should the reckoning come those you spent so much time earning the ire of care not for your tears.

I only care about what happens to Mongols and Spatr because it sets a new tone of what acceptable in wars now.  For years it was beat down then white peace.  Not saying Spatr or Mongols wants peace, but given the few people that tried to surrender already and your outrighrt refusal of it, well that also sends a message.  The message is mess with Oculus at all and you will be warred for months, no chance of peace until ZT.  

 

 

[Auctor]

What years are you even talking about? The only war I can even think of that was all white peace was Eq and that was more due to stalemate than some glorious surge of morality.

[Caliph]

4 minutes ago, Auctor said:

What years are you even talking about? The only war I can even think of that was all white peace was Eq and that was more due to stalemate than some glorious surge of morality.

Well no, most wars since Karma were white peace.

[Auctor]

Ok let's just go through the big ones.

 

Bipolar - ended with a ton of reps

PB-NpO/DH-NPO - definitely did not end in white peace. NpO was made to adhere to aid restrictions for a period of one month. TOOL were forced to pay 26000 tech. NPO and a bunch of its allies were slapped with a whole bunch of terms, including reps, extended war, and a 6 month ODP between DH and NPO. DT were forced to pay a big pile of reps.

Grudge War- reps were charged.

Dave War - MCXA was given terms that included extended war for some of its nations.

Equilibrium War - terms essentially amounted to white peace only because the winning coalition fell apart when some attempted to impose extended war terms on Umbrella

Disorder War - NPO were forced to adhere to aid restrictions for nations that were in peace mode.

Doom War - Probably mostly resulted in white peace, someone that lost will be along shortly to tell me that's wrong I'm sure.

 

That's arguably 2 out of 7. Not most by a longshot. Maybe you can go through and find all the micro wars that support your statement, but I doubt it.

[Caliph]

9 minutes ago, Auctor said:

Ok let's just go through the big ones.

 

Bipolar - ended with a ton of reps

PB-NpO/DH-NPO - definitely did not end in white peace. NpO was made to adhere to aid restrictions for a period of one month. TOOL were forced to pay 26000 tech. NPO and a bunch of its allies were slapped with a whole bunch of terms, including reps, extended war, and a 6 month ODP between DH and NPO. DT were forced to pay a big pile of reps.

Grudge War- reps were charged.

Dave War - MCXA was given terms that included extended war for some of its nations.

Equilibrium War - terms essentially amounted to white peace only because the winning coalition fell apart when some attempted to impose extended war terms on Umbrella

Disorder War - NPO were forced to adhere to aid restrictions for nations that were in peace mode.

Doom War - Probably mostly resulted in white peace, someone that lost will be along shortly to tell me that's wrong I'm sure.

 

That's arguably 2 out of 7. Not most by a longshot. Maybe you can go through and find all the micro wars that support your statement, but I doubt it.

Most wars that I was involved in.  The alliances that I was a part in during those wars never accepted reps.  I never accepted reps.  In fact I paid my  share of reps.  So claiming that I have to pay for sins of the past is absurd.

[Auctor]

Were you involved in some special wars no one else was, or were you a hippy the entire time?

[Caliph]

9 minutes ago, Auctor said:

Were you involved in some special wars no one else was, or were you a hippy the entire time?

I was in alliances that didn't take reps.  

 

Protip, Umbrella never took reps.  That was one of the alliances I was in in some of the wars you mentioned.

Do the math.  Claiming I owe some debt to be paid for reps when I never took any in my entire time here since 2006 is nonsense.  Especially sice you are currently allied to people who have taken the most reps in that same time here.

[white majik]

This is what happens when we don't give terms. Every one thinks that after losing a war they are entitled to white peace. You lost. You can either accepted what terms are given or you can continue fighting. The winners owe the losers nothing. 

 

Also just an fyi, the reason Umbrella does take reps has nothing to do with morality or wanting to be fair. It's because reps are ineffective compared to our efficiency. We have pushed for extended wars on several occasions and aid restrictions because wars have consequences. I know it's a crazy concept that you don't understand and that's ok.

[the rebel]

1 hour ago, Caliph said:

I was in alliances that didn't take reps.  

 

Protip, Umbrella never took reps.  That was one of the alliances I was in in some of the wars you mentioned.

Do the math.  Claiming I owe some debt to be paid for reps when I never took any in my entire time here since 2006 is nonsense.  Especially sice you are currently allied to people who have taken the most reps in that same time here.

 

Wait, so firstly you claim you was never in alliances which took reps and secondly retort about Auctor being allied to those who have taken reps.

 

Your second part answers your first part. You're accountable for your friends of friend and allies of allies actions and reparation demands when you stand with them in war.

[James Spanier]

I enjoy how "there's no recent precedent of non-white peace" turned into "Umbrella never demanded reps in all those wars that contradicted my original point" in only three posts, glossing over the faulty logic conclusion that Umbrella not demanding reps somehow meant there is a recent solid precedent of white-peace only.

 

Caliph, I honestly can't tell if you're not even trying or if you're trying really, really hard; and the sad thing is that the end result is the same in either instance.

[Caliph]

1 hour ago, the rebel said:

 

Wait, so firstly you claim you was never in alliances which took reps and secondly retort about Auctor being allied to those who have taken reps.

 

Your second part answers your first part. You're accountable for your friends of friend and allies of allies actions and reparation demands when you stand with them in war.

I was never in an alliance that took reps in a war.  

 

Unless you want to go back to 2008 when I was an NPO member for a few months.

[Caliph]

1 hour ago, white majik said:

This is what happens when we don't give terms. Every one thinks that after losing a war they are entitled to white peace. You lost. You can either accepted what terms are given or you can continue fighting. The winners owe the losers nothing. 

 

Also just an fyi, the reason Umbrella does take reps has nothing to do with morality or wanting to be fair. It's because reps are ineffective compared to our efficiency. We have pushed for extended wars on several occasions and aid restrictions because wars have consequences. I know it's a crazy concept that you don't understand and that's ok.

Wars do have consequences.  So does giving !@#$%^&* peace terms.

 

And yeah, I get Umbrella's stance on peace terms, I was there for like 3 years.

[Auctor]

There's some really dopey assumptions being made here tbh. The glaring one is just because an alliance that has expressed no interest in peace isn't being offered white peace means that the intent is to charge them reps. Or that a peace other than white peace automatically equals reps. It's all coming off as emotional and not terribly grounded in anything the world the rest of us have been in since Karma has had to offer.

[the rebel]

6 hours ago, Caliph said:

I was never in an alliance that took reps in a war.  

 

So you never been in an alliance which one of their allies forced terms/reparations? You sir are a liar, get off the cross.

[Gizmo]

3 hours ago, the rebel said:

So you never been in an alliance which one of their allies forced terms/reparations? You sir are a liar, get off the cross.

 

A lot of alliances in the past did not accept reps.  I think I was only once in an alliance that received reps and that was because we were not really involved in the Peace Talks and they were minimal (3m 50 tech if I remember).  Received reps for rouges, errant spy attacks etc. sure but as far as war ending reps?? Not that I can think of anyway.  I think Caliph is correct here.  

 

Also nothing wrong with reps.