Shoulda been a Cowboy Update

[tobbogon]

So if a nation fleeing, say, Mongols, fled to your AA and we continued attacks on them, you'd send your alliance to war in their defense without an AA wide vote?

[Auctor]

36 minutes ago, eejack said:

 

Is simple. Not allies with Sengoku means open target. You can put all the blah blah blah around it you want, imagine all sorts of intents and manifestations, infer vicious threats abounding, yet it is simple. Sengoku is the current wee bully with the big friends.  It will change eventually, as these things often do, but until then, enjoy the ride.

 

 

 

You're trying too hard.

[Alexio15]

1 hour ago, tobbogon said:

So if a nation fleeing, say, Mongols, fled to your AA and we continued attacks on them, you'd send your alliance to war in their defense without an AA wide vote?

From what I can gather a vote was taking place to try and decide what to do. Hard to get stuff accomplished with 5 hours on the clock. 

 

In essence this entire situation should have and I have no idea how it couldn't have been resolved diplomatically

 It astounds me.

[Lord Hitchcock]

As a Cowboys wannabe, M Inc pledges death to their lower teir.

[Cazaric]

Four alliances declare on these 19 nations alongside Sengoku? Is this a compliment to AGWO's skill, or an indictment of Sengoku's?

[hartfw]

14 minutes ago, Cazaric said:

Four alliances declare on these 19 nations alongside Sengoku? Is this a compliment to AGWO's skill, or an indictment of Sengoku's?

 

Cowboys sign on as well.

[White Chocolate]

15 hours ago, Alex0827a said:

Arguably because Sengoku hasn't had an active war with SPATR in about a month now. As explained in the other topic, they attacked before we could actually give them a response beyond my personal opinion, and so forced the issue. 

 

Having been cc'd on the conversation between hart and unruly, I would argue that Sengoku probably just wants to declare and couldn't care less about diplomacy. Well, maybe hart does. He seems to be reasonable discussing this matter (with me, anyways), even though we disagree. Auctor's more of a "do what we want or we'll nuke you, because we're Oculus and we can" type of diplomat, it seems. Strong-arming is the single least-effective form of diplomacy when it comes to us.

 

I've openly admitted that we should have been more aware, but they chose to escalate before we could even decide whether we'd reach an agreement or not, so here we are.

Feel free to correct me if I have the facts wrong.  I also have a question or two, I apologize if the answer is somewhere else...just make a link.  There is a lot of reading on this and I have not read it all..

 

From my understanding the person who applied to tSC was in peace mode a long time.  That being the case,  it's completely understandable why there were no wars.  The fact that Oculus is at war with SPaTR is very well known.  I'm assuming tSC government admits that you knew that much at the time.  If not, you REALLY have not been paying attention. 

 

My first question is did the applicant say what alliance he came from? If so, any attempts to double check with someone in Oculus on whether or not it was okay to take the nation?  If the nation leader didn't mention it, that nation leader (if sincere about wanting to join tSC) should of done so.  Then you could of spoken to Oculus before accepting the nation AND if the answer from Oculus wasn't one you liked, have your vote at that time.

 

Having said that, I do have sympathy for the people in SPaTR or the other alliances involved in war who SINCERELY want to individually surrender.  I have attempted to help people in that situation myself because of applications similar to this situation.  The problem (what I'm told by government members in alliances in Oculus that I've spoken to) is that early on Oculus DID allow individual surrenders and the nations who received them just left, built back up their nukes and THEN got back into the war and attacked Oculus again.  That being the case, their not wanting to allow individual surrenders is a good military move on their part.

-----------------------------------------------------

 

To the people who SINCERELY want to surrender inside SPaTR (or the other groups at war),  my advice is put pressure on your government(s) to negotiate a peace that Oculus will accept.  By that, I mean, forget about "white peace" because I'm fairly reasonable myself and I wouldn't agree to that if if I had the power that Oculus does, all else being equal.  Expect terms. 

 

If the government isn't willing to talk for whatever reason, do what you need to do internally to find a government who will actually be concerned for it's membership and/or the membership of it's allies.  If that doesn't work - sorry.  Next time around better luck in picking an alliance.

 

Hail Sengoku!  Hail NPO! Hail OWFOverlords! Have fun out there boys and girls.

Edited July 4, 2016 by White Chocolate

[The Zigur]

I am starting to believe that the Imperium is the last reasonable major alliance on the brown team

Edited July 4, 2016 by Immortan Junka

[Auctor]

4 hours ago, Alexio15 said:

From what I can gather a vote was taking place to try and decide what to do. Hard to get stuff accomplished with 5 hours on the clock.

 

We held a vote on being at war with SPaTR and MONGOLS 5 months ago. Everyone has to respect votes!

[Caliph]

9 hours ago, Auctor said:

 

You're trying too hard.

If the shoe fits, wear it.  

 

And you are trying to jam that shoe on your foot so hard your toes are bleeding.

[Caliph]

5 hours ago, White Chocolate said:

Feel free to correct me if I have the facts wrong.  I also have a question or two, I apologize if the answer is somewhere else...just make a link.  There is a lot of reading on this and I have not read it all..

 

From my understanding the person who applied to tSC was in peace mode a long time.  That being the case,  it's completely understandable why there were no wars.  The fact that Oculus is at war with SPaTR is very well known.  I'm assuming tSC government admits that you knew that much at the time.  If not, you REALLY have not been paying attention. 

 

My first question is did the applicant say what alliance he came from? If so, any attempts to double check with someone in Oculus on whether or not it was okay to take the nation?  If the nation leader didn't mention it, that nation leader (if sincere about wanting to join tSC) should of done so.  Then you could of spoken to Oculus before accepting the nation AND if the answer from Oculus wasn't one you liked, have your vote at that time.

 

Having said that, I do have sympathy for the people in SPaTR or the other alliances involved in war who SINCERELY want to individually surrender.  I have attempted to help people in that situation myself because of applications similar to this situation.  The problem (what I'm told by government members in alliances in Oculus that I've spoken to) is that early on Oculus DID allow individual surrenders and the nations who received them just left, built back up their nukes and THEN got back into the war and attacked Oculus again.  That being the case, their not wanting to allow individual surrenders is a good military move on their part.

-----------------------------------------------------

 

To the people who SINCERELY want to surrender inside SPaTR (or the other groups at war),  my advice is put pressure on your government(s) to negotiate a peace that Oculus will accept.  By that, I mean, forget about "white peace" because I'm fairly reasonable myself and I wouldn't agree to that if if I had the power that Oculus does, all else being equal.  Expect terms. 

 

If the government isn't willing to talk for whatever reason, do what you need to do internally to find a government who will actually be concerned for it's membership and/or the membership of it's allies.  If that doesn't work - sorry.  Next time around better luck in picking an alliance.

 

Hail Sengoku!  Hail NPO! Hail OWFOverlords! Have fun out there boys and girls.

There is a difference between a peace that Oculus can accept and a peace that SPATR/Mongols will accept.  

 

Right now Oculus calls ALL the shots, and Mongols/Spatr would rather right Oculus until they can no longer do so than have a humiliating surrender to Oculus.  

 

Because sometimes fighting for months longer is better than accepting peace.  SPATR/mongols don't have friends kept at war indefinately by Oculus who need an out to be used as leverage against them in negotiations.

[monkeybum]

8 hours ago, Cazaric said:

Four alliances declare on these 19 nations alongside Sengoku? Is this a compliment to AGWO's skill, or an indictment of Sengoku's?

 

The reason for the war is the Spatr-Oculus war, so this is everyone's in Oc concern. Also...That is how it works in Oculus. 

[monkeybum]

1 hour ago, Caliph said:

Right now Oculus calls ALL the shots, and Mongols/Spatr would rather right Oculus until they can no longer do so than have a humiliating surrender to Oculus

 

That's war buddy. We've all had to surrender in the past and we got over it. 

[Caliph]

1 hour ago, monkeybum said:

 

That's war buddy. We've all had to surrender in the past and we got over it. 

Some feel so slighted they would rather eternal war then quit than to surrender.

 

FAN was under the jackboot of NPO and IRON for years until Karma rolled around and finally ended NPO's dominance and smacked down their laptops of IRON and TPF and other NPO laptogs of that era.  

 

Not saying they are going to pull a FAN, but there is a similarity with the bigger agressor side not wanting to peace out with the smaller side after it has been beat down.  So yeah, if i was them I'd fight you until I had no money, then reroll and do it again.

 

But I'm not them.  I have friends that would have gotten it even worse, and I can't do that to my friends.  But all their friends are currently being beaten down by Oculus and no chance for peace, so they really have nothing to lose.

 

And yeah, we've all had to surrender.  Even had to pay reps.  But the fact is the only time I have ever seen people forced to stay in an AA for 6 months was ... well never.  The closest was 2 months for WAPA to join \m/ after GW2, and that was in 2006.  

 

Yeah we've had to surrender, but that doesn't mean we have to like it, especially when you kick us in the balls on the way down.  You can be gracious about it, or be a dick, and you people have only been dicks.  What next, a return to "do something about it" when you have the biggest consolodated NS total in the upper tiers and mid  tiers we have ever seen and nothing of note can be done to your bloc?  

 

Yeah, do what you want but that doesn't mean I have to like it, and you done pissed me off with the !@#$ you pulled.  

Edited July 4, 2016 by Caliph

[the rebel]

6 minutes ago, Caliph said:

Some feel so slighted they would rather eternal war then quit than to surrender.

Not saying they are going to pull a FAN.

 

What spend years in peacemode? I think all sides are in agreement against that.

[Caliph]

2 minutes ago, the rebel said:

 

What spend years in peacemode? I think all sides are in agreement against that.

Somehow I don't think Oculus would mind.  I mean its not like anybody can do something about it, Oculus can absorb a hit from anyone, and especially with the non Oculus alliances willing to soak up damage like MHA Gramlins ODN and Polar, to which there just isn't the NS outside of this grouping to pose a credible threat to Oculus outside of Oculus and their power base.  

 

The only saving grace is you people might get bored at some point.  But thats it, its not like anyone can do anything about it that you couldn't just easily take.  

[rileyaddaff]

2 minutes ago, Caliph said:

Somehow I don't think Oculus would mind.  I mean its not like anybody can do something about it, Oculus can absorb a hit from anyone, and especially with the non Oculus alliances willing to soak up damage like MHA Gramlins ODN and Polar, to which there just isn't the NS outside of this grouping to pose a credible threat to Oculus outside of Oculus and their power base.  

 

The only saving grace is you people might get bored at some point.  But thats it, its not like anyone can do anything about it that you couldn't just easily take.  

I doubt that anyone would be able to beat them even if they drop all their external treaties

[Blackatron]

9 hours ago, White Chocolate said:

Having said that, I do have sympathy for the people in SPaTR or the other alliances involved in war who SINCERELY want to individually surrender.  I have attempted to help people in that situation myself because of applications similar to this situation.  The problem (what I'm told by government members in alliances in Oculus that I've spoken to) is that early on Oculus DID allow individual surrenders and the nations who received them just left, built back up their nukes and THEN got back into the war and attacked Oculus again.  That being the case, their not wanting to allow individual surrenders is a good military move on their part.

-----------------------------------------------------

 

To the people who SINCERELY want to surrender inside SPaTR (or the other groups at war),  my advice is put pressure on your government(s) to negotiate a peace that Oculus will accept.  By that, I mean, forget about "white peace" because I'm fairly reasonable myself and I wouldn't agree to that if if I had the power that Oculus does, all else being equal.  Expect terms. 

 

If the government isn't willing to talk for whatever reason, do what you need to do internally to find a government who will actually be concerned for it's membership and/or the membership of it's allies.  If that doesn't work - sorry.  Next time around better luck in picking an alliance.

 

Hail Sengoku!  Hail NPO! Hail OWFOverlords! Have fun out there boys and girls.

 

If this was some supertier nation that could do a ridiculous amount of damage after restocking nukes, collecting, and then jumping back into the fight it would be somewhat understandable that they would be very cautious, but this guy is what? 20K NS? Worst he could do is shave some infra off a tech farm. Not that it matters because he was already in peacemode, so could build up his nukes anyway, no need to change AA's if he wanted to continue to fight Oculus.

 

I would assume that surrendering to an alliance or bloc would include a promise not to engage in aggression in any of the ongoing conflicts, if a nation were to break that promise that not many would defend them if harsh individual penalties were to be inflicted onto that nation.

 

My point being, if Oculus has had some problems with PoW's in the past that is really just being used as an excuse at this point, or did they think there would be no genuine surrenders after months and months of war?

[monkeybum]

1 hour ago, Caliph said:

Somehow I don't think Oculus would mind.  I mean its not like anybody can do something about it, Oculus can absorb a hit from anyone, and especially with the non Oculus alliances willing to soak up damage like MHA Gramlins ODN and Polar, to which there just isn't the NS outside of this grouping to pose a credible threat to Oculus outside of Oculus and their power base.  

 

The only saving grace is you people might get bored at some point.  But thats it, its not like anyone can do anything about it that you couldn't just easily take.  

 

You are overly pessimistic. I have no doubt that one day the tables would turn against us, and we will be rolled just as every other dominant bloc has been in the past. Its a game, that's how it works.

 

As for your previous comment. Bones & co earned their treatment.  Even if they hadn't, no alliance in a similar situation would agree to a white peace after this amount of war, and the clear winner. 

[murtibing]

10 hours ago, White Chocolate said:

The problem (what I'm told by government members in alliances in Oculus that I've spoken to) is that early on Oculus DID allow individual surrenders and the nations who received them just left, built back up their nukes and THEN got back into the war and attacked Oculus again.
 

 

No SPATR or MONGOLS member has ever surrendered to the Oculus.

 

Here is the full story:

 

A few members of SPATR have switched to "Oculus POW" AA. Two of them posted their resignations in the thread on the OWF. However they haven't in fact surrendered. It was explained by Petro (from Sengoku) in the IRON DOW thread:

 

On 4/1/2016 at 11:22 PM, Petro said:

Terms were never offered to the "surrendering" nations by anyone with the authority to do so.

 

This was further reinforced by a message which was sent by IRON government member to our Leader Sgt Gus (who was baffled why POWs are being attacked). IRON official explained that the nations switching their AA to "Oculus POW" have done so on their own accord and that Oculus is not offering any terms and not accepting any individual surrenders. He further stated that this may change in the future, and in such case a thread with individual surrender terms will be posted on the OWF (which has never happened so far).

 

So long story short, some inexperienced nation rulers (who don't know how individual surrenders work on Digiterra) tried to surrender individually but obviously it didn't work. I don't know why they thought that switching AA and posting on OWF would work. Since World Freedom Federation was sending individual surrender terms to SPATR members, maybe they thought that it will work for Oculus too?

 

Furthermore, the people who tried to surrender were still attacked whilst on the POW AA (since they haven't in fact surrendered, Oculus was still targeting them obviously). So they were not able to restock nukes like you said. And since they were still attacked while on the POW AA, they have returned to SPATR with the exception of one person who is now in third party alliance (and still under attack).

 

There was also one person from MONGOLS who switched to some misspelled version of Oculus POW. I don't know what he was up to though.

 

TL;DR Nobody from SPATR or MONGOLS surrendered individually, because nobody from SPATR or MONGOLS was ever given any individual surrender terms by Oculus. Some people who didn't know better tried to surrender regardless. Obviously it didn't work and they were still attacked. So most of them returned to SPATR.

Edited July 4, 2016 by murtibing

[Caliph]

18 minutes ago, monkeybum said:

 

You are overly pessimistic. I have no doubt that one day the tables would turn against us, and we will be rolled just as every other dominant bloc has been in the past. Its a game, that's how it works.

 

As for your previous comment. Bones & co earned their treatment.  Even if they hadn't, no alliance in a similar situation would agree to a white peace after this amount of war, and the clear winner. 

Well no.  The only possible way the tables could be turned against you is if big parts of Oculus split up and use external treaties to roll the other members of Oculus, just like how Continuum was only able to be defeated with several large alliances in Continuum flat out leaving it after it was attacked and then declared war on a few Continuum members.  

 

There does not exist the NS outside of Oculus to defeat Oculus in battle.  Even if the rest of CN nutted up, unified on the goal of defeating Oculus, and somehow got he neutrals involved, Oculus would still win.  

 

So no, you will not get the tables turned on you unless you are majorly betrayed by current Oculus members.  And depending on your enemies to betray each other is not a good strategy.

[iwin90]

cant we have peace in our time?

[unruly]

8 hours ago, monkeybum said:

   16 hours ago,  Cazaric said: 

Four alliances declare on these 19 nations alongside Sengoku? Is this a compliment to AGWO's skill, or an indictment of Sengoku's?

 

The reason for the war is the Spatr-Oculus war, so this is everyone's in Oc concern. Also...That is how it works in Oculus. 

 

only half right, monkeybum ... re-read the original post.     Auctor wet his pants that an alliance less than half his size might attack him -- due to AGW-O asking hartfw if Sengoku declared war before attacking Sandstorm.  No one said anything about "enter the conflict against Sengoku", but as Proberbs 28:1 notes "The wicked flee when no man pursueth" 

 

The part Monkeyburn got right is that dogpiling is how it works in Oculus.    On the other hand, Cazaric got it all right, but I still don't know if it's the compliment or the indictment.   The public record confirms that the only attack I received from Sengoku waddled in hours after larger attackers had waded in.

 

For our part, no pixel huggers here: we'll defend and let everyone update their "nukes taken..." bios.   Doomcave learned that, too, among others.  That's how it works in AGW Overlords.

[hartfw]

Agreed that Emperor Mic was wicked and fleeing.

[unruly]

5 minutes ago, hartfw said:

Agreed that Emperor Mic was wicked and fleeing.

 

As I've learned more from our conversations, I agree with your conclusion as well, hartfw.