Let's Play With Scorpions!

[Caliph]

5 hours ago, rileyaddaff said:

Why dont you guys start declaring on AAs that have a decent top tier?

There isn't any non Oculus alliance that isn't actively supporting Oculus's current wars leftthat has a decent top tier left.

[Caliph]

53 minutes ago, Geerland said:

Depends who they are, and what they do once they rejoin. If it was someone insignificant (ie not one of those who sent 1000's of tech to bones etc) and was not gov, and joins that alliance in good faith (ie no aiding of people that we are at war with) then I don't see that it would be an issue. We would have to be informed though, as we keep track of nations coming in and out of inactivity so if we aren't informed then the nation could be declared on. 

So you want wars on those who supplied Bones with tech.  Would you then accept wars against those who supplied your top tier with their thousands of tech too?  

[Stoopid Ace]

I never thought I'd say this but...TIR stands behind TSC in this conflict.

 

War on brothers.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2016 by Stoopid Ace
fixed

[Neo Uruk]

On 7/2/2016 at 4:22 AM, Blackatron said:

 

You know this is !@#$%^&* Auctor, I haven't heard of a single case of Oculus allowing individual surrenders, in fact multiple people have stated that it is never been allowed, correct me if I'm mistaken on that point.

yeah that's wrong i ran the pow aa fam

[hartfw]

On 7/2/2016 at 2:41 AM, Alex0827a said:

For the purposes of full disclosure:

 

Emperor Mic left SPATR on the 21st while in peace mode. No history of active wars, no signs of any trouble.  

Minus that he had declared on IRON and VE and was at war with all of Oculus as a member of SPTR.

 

He asked to join us on the 29th, we said yes. Then yesterday, I get a pm from Auctor basically saying "he's on our target list, kick him or we'll attack you."

Auctor messaged you the 29th, as logs show.  And you were messaged that we were at war with Emperor Mic and would continue it, nathing about TSC being attacked.

For those of you who actually know me, you will recognize that threats are an awful way to go about getting anything from me. I told him I'm 100% against that, and here's my reasoning: 

 

Mic has no history of wars with anyone, let alone Sengoku.

Again not true.  Easily verifiable as false -- https://cybernations.lyricalz.com/index.php/war?nation1=555412&nation2= , he directly attacked IRON and VE and was a defender in the coalition war against a slew of other nations

Sengoku's last active war with SPATR was on June 3rd, so it's hard to believe that it's anything more than just a hobby for them. 

Sengoku is at a few wars, and will deploy were we fit best.  Thanks for the concern. And the awareness that we have been fighting them this month, so clearly accepting and aiding them might not be a peaceful action.

They waited a couple days, so obviously it wasn't important enough to follow him closely.

Nope.  Again the same lie, disproven by the messages sent on the exact first day he was accepted.

Technically, they should be declaring on KoN for the same reason, as they accepted Mic as a member.

Emperor Mic is at war with Oculus.  Wherever he goes that stays true until he gets peace.  This isn't an advanced concept.

Nobody who currently has an active war with SPATR has contacted me in any way saying that this was an issue.

Sengoku is actively at a state of war with SPATR.  We let you know that, as the logs show.   You responded by calling a vote on attacking us (Oa'ing off an applicant already at war) and then attacked us.

 

I think this corrects all the factual inconsistencies, although I might have missed some.

[hartfw]

29 minutes ago, Neo Uruk said:

yeah that's wrong i ran the pow aa fam

 

This is true, and he did a very good job.

 

Would recommend again.

Edited July 3, 2016 by hartfw

[Helbrecht]

In all of this, where is that guy who was throwing Bones's weight around constantly.

You know the one, the one who had an issue with Franz one time. Cmon i cant remember his name and he was all over these boards. Old age sucks.

[Lord Hitchcock]

29 minutes ago, Helbrecht said:

In all of this, where is that guy who was throwing Bones's weight around constantly.

You know the one, the one who had an issue with Franz one time. Cmon i cant remember his name and he was all over these boards. Old age sucks.

 

 

Oh, Stonewall the phony.

 

he's camped out in last call, I think. A ruined man.

Edited July 3, 2016 by Lord Hitchcock

[Alex0827a]

4 hours ago, hartfw said:

 

I think this corrects all the factual inconsistencies, although I might have missed some.

We didn't call a vote on attacking you - hell, we didn't call a vote on anything. We opened up a discussion on how to handle this, and the result could have just as easily been having Mic pay reps or leave our AA until the issue with you was settled.

[Auctor]

6 hours ago, Alex0827a said:

To clarify, I expressed a desire for war. Me, personally, not TSC as a whole. As I said on irc last night, we likely would have come to some agreement or other had Sengoku not attacked before giving us time to discuss. Given the timing of the attack, it seems apparent that diplomacy was not Sengoku's goal at all. You guys have been around long enough to know that attacking someone while actually working to reach an agreement is very poor diplomacy. By doing this, you pretty much forced a reaction, rather than a solution.

 

Accepting a nation at war with an alliance is terrible diplomacy. Protecting them is an act of war. If your goal had just been to bandwagon into a five month old aggressive war against us(as it seems), you couldn't have handled it better.

[Haflinger]

6 hours ago, Caliph said:

There isn't any non Oculus alliance that isn't actively supporting Oculus's current wars leftthat has a decent top tier left.

Well, there's always DBDC.

[Blackatron]

8 hours ago, Geerland said:

Depends who they are, and what they do once they rejoin. If it was someone insignificant (ie not one of those who sent 1000's of tech to bones etc) and was not gov, and joins that alliance in good faith (ie no aiding of people that we are at war with) then I don't see that it would be an issue. We would have to be informed though, as we keep track of nations coming in and out of inactivity so if we aren't informed then the nation could be declared on. 

 

Long term tech farms are significant now? Yay! My 13K NS nation is significant!

 

[Haflinger]

Oh believe me, long term tech farms - what I call tech banks - are significant. They're what power every heavy-hitter alliance's military.

[DragonsPhyre]

Judging from the messages Auctor posted, TSC was trying diplomacy and needed a vote. Sengoku attacked what was then an accepted member of TSC barely five hours after the last message. Regardless of the nation's history, Sengoku fired the first actual shots here. TSC escalated when Alex countered, but er.... Sengoku is not the victim here. You couldn't have waited one more day?

[Charles the Great]

Screw diplomacy lets kill pixels.

[The Zigur]

10 minutes ago, DragonsPhyre said:

Judging from the messages Auctor posted, TSC was trying diplomacy and needed a vote. Sengoku attacked what was then an accepted member of TSC barely five hours after the last message. Regardless of the nation's history, Sengoku fired the first actual shots here. TSC escalated when Alex countered, but er.... Sengoku is not the victim here. You couldn't have waited one more day?

 

If the nation was still on the coalition target list it's understandable that he would be hit and not necessarily an aggressive intention of Sengoku's government. This is why SNX conducts a background check and asks prospective members if they are in trouble abroad. If they lie and are hit after being accepted, that would be grounds for expulsion.

 

So looks more of a case of government incompetence in TSC to me. 

 

Blah Im defending Sengoku 

[Blackatron]

59 minutes ago, Haflinger said:

Oh believe me, long term tech farms - what I call tech banks - are significant. They're what power every heavy-hitter alliance's military.

 

Certainly valuable to an alliance, I mean I have supplied mine ~30,000 NS in the 200 days, but you can't really say that individually they are significant or a threat as the post I responded to implied, nor can you hold a tech bank responsible for the actions of their receivers.

 

5 minutes ago, Immortan Junka said:

 

If the nation was still on the coalition target list it's understandable that he would be hit and not necessarily an aggressive intention of Sengoku's government. This is why SNX conducts a background check and asks prospective members if they are in trouble abroad. If they lie and are hit after being accepted, that would be grounds for expulsion.

 

So looks more of a case of government incompetence in TSC to me. 

 

Blah Im defending Sengoku 

 

Surely if a nation was hit after being accepted that would be an act of war, no? TTK has had people we've needed to hit for various reasons over the years, sometimes they went and hid in other alliances, we use diplomacy and in the large majority of cases we got what we wanted.

 

Bob may be dying, but still there is not really any rush in such matters, even if they were adamant that he had to be hit (which they didn't really have any reason to be, as I have stated before) there is no reason not to leave things a little while, it is not as if he is going to gain 100k tech and become a threat.

[Auctor]

Actually pursuing wars with nations you are at war with is what decent alliances do. Are we a bit remiss in not keeping him staggered? sure. It doesn't materially change the fact of him being an enemy nation and TSC apparently protecting him. We hit only the nation we are at war with. TSC chose to escalate it.

[The Zigur]

The purpose of an alliance is to protect the interests of it's membership, not draw arbitrary borders in the dirt.

[Alexio15]

Most alliances preach democracy on this game and require votes on such a strange world we certainly live in. Not sure all the difference one day would have made would most likely have got.your guy out of tsc and free for you to have your way with.

[Auctor]

TSC's commitment to democracy didn't extend to things like accepting nations at war with us or subsequently declaring war on us, so that narrative can drop dead.

[hartfw]

2 minutes ago, Auctor said:

TSC's commitment to democracy didn't extend to things like accepting nations at war with us or subsequently declaring war on us, so that narrative can drop dead.

 

Or aiding said nation with money *and* tech.

[White Chocolate]

17 hours ago, Alex0827a said:

To clarify, I expressed a desire for war. Me, personally, not TSC as a whole. As I said on irc last night, we likely would have come to some agreement or other had Sengoku not attacked before giving us time to discuss. Given the timing of the attack, it seems apparent that diplomacy was not Sengoku's goal at all. You guys have been around long enough to know that attacking someone while actually working to reach an agreement is very poor diplomacy. By doing this, you pretty much forced a reaction, rather than a solution.

 

[OOC]My apologies for not responding immediately Auctor - I work 10 hour days, raise a 4 month old on my own, and have two nephews up for a couple weeks that I haven't seen in a while. I'm a tad busy  [/OOC]

/me sigh.

 

Bad idea for a government member to say their preference is to go to war, Alex0827, especially when the person you're talking to is the other government leader.   In Auctor's shoes, I would of assumed it's war.  I'm well aware of how much a leader's opinion can sway people, including in a democracy.

 

Even if the other person isn't to the level of diplomatic that you want, in this particular case he is clearly representing the stronger power.  I'm not exactly sure how to continue without sounding like I'm talking about "the godfather", but for the sake of your membership if not yourself, you should of been more careful.  Or give the job to someone in your alliance who is capable of showing the "respect" required in this situation.

 

I don't agree with the actions Oculus takes all the time. I have had frustrations on who to talk to about which nation who comes and wants to join the alliance I'm in.  On the other hand, I (or haflinger now that I'm in Last Call) do talk to someone with power inside Oculus before accepting someone when there is any sort of potential history. In this case, I think Sengoku/Oculus did alright. 

 

------------------------------------

Regarding the general issue of individual surrenders... I have no clue what has been discussed internally in Oculus or not, but in my personal opinion (speaking only for myself here) there should be a clear way for individuals to surrender  Something that involves using the surrender thread (below), add terms such as having no nukes, etc. if you like:

If it is going to be a case by case basis, then I suggest (take or leave my suggestion as you like Oculus) to figure out what guideines will be used and find someone to be the go to person who can actually make that decision as far as if the individual person can surrender or not and the rest of Oculus will stick to it.  Then publish it - preferably the guidelines but at least who is the decision maker. 

 

Hail Sengoku!  Hail the Sandstorm Confederacy!  Have fun with the war everyone.

 

Edited July 4, 2016 by White Chocolate

[Caliph]

13 hours ago, Haflinger said:

Well, there's always DBDC.

If you think DBDC could take on Oculus if they wanted to you are mistaken.

 

Besides theres not even a will in DBDC to attack Oculus, and Oculus would rather not engage in the many months of warfare it would take to take DBDC down at this point in time.  Give it a coupel of months for nations to recover from taking down Timmeh, Gator, Bones, Bean, and the rest of Mongols and then maybe Oculus will fire the first shot, but there absolutely is no way in hell DBDC would gain from attacking Oculus.

[Auctor]

What does LC have against DBDC, anyway?