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LPCN: Freedom or Tyranny?


The Zigur

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1 minute ago, Grealind said:

I question the logic in having such standards, get told it's none of my business, so I produce verifiable evidence why it is in fact my business, especially considering I'm Atlas' Acting Finance Chancellor in addition to being our permanent Interior Chancellor. You opened the door when you tried to claim it was "nun-ya." Maybe you shouldn't do that anymore.

 

I'm sorry but unless you are claiming sovereignty over SNX like your buddy Methrage, then it really is none of your business who we sell tech to. Our members don't exist to serve as your tech slaves.

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1 minute ago, Immortan Junka said:

 

I'm sorry but unless you are claiming sovereignty over SNX like your buddy Methrage, then it really is none of your business who we sell tech to. Our members don't exist to serve as your tech slaves.

Okay now I'm getting a headache here. Please point to me where I claimed sovereignty over your - you call that an alliance? You approached us to arrange something, and we turned you and your ludicrous demands away. Obviously we don't want slaves, we're not plantation holders from the 1700's, after all. Heck, I don't even think I own a wig (wait, yeah I do, but thats for another time). Feels to me like you're attacking anyone who doesn't conform to your very narrow, current ideas on how alliances should operate.

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I barely even remember negotiating a deal with Atlas... we ended up selling to other buyers... but you seem to have some huge grudge that we didn't sell you tech. None of that is relevant to the actions of LPCN; now I understand your motivation in politically defending them seeing as you buy their tech... but unless you are addressing my logic in the OP why are you even here? As a government member of Atlas you are only hurting relations between our alliances.

Edited by Immortan Junka
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2 minutes ago, Immortan Junka said:

I barely even remember negotiating a deal with Atlas... we ended up selling to other buyers... but you seem to have some huge grudge that we didn't sell you tech. None of that is relevant to the actions of LPCN; now I understand your motivation in politically defending them seeing as you buy their tech... but unless you are addressing my logic in the OP why are you even here? As a government member of Atlas you are only hurting relations between our alliances.

You want to discuss logic from the OP? Alrighty, let's do this!

  1. That alliance members are free to leave during peacetime (assuming no debts). Conditionally, and I get back to this in a moment.
  2. That alliance sovereigns coordinate to sanction rogues across color teams. You are bitter because Sephiroth managed to do this more successfully than you.
  3. That alliance members cede diplomatic and military authority to the alliance sovereign. You realize this is not the "norm" in every alliance, right? While it may be the norm in alliances that you've interacted with, for the most part, it's obviously not an obligatory style of alliance structure. You are attempting to enforce this very narrow mold onto another alliance, in an effort to while not necessarily coup them, enforce a certain measure of your will onto them. You talk about sovereignty, yet by this very thread, you seek to breach the sovereignty of another alliance.
  4.  That raiding of non-aligned nations should be restrained in nature. Why? If you are dumb enough not to join an alliance, then your money, your technology, your infrastructure and land, is free for the taking and the burning. Once again, you are attempting to exert a level of control over another alliance.
  5. That alliance sovereigns do not claim jurisdiction over other alliances. Yet you breach the very sovereignty that you claim to hold so dear, straight in points 3 and 4.
  1. Sephiroth has claimed that leaving LPCN is "treason." I agree, to a certain extent. Think about it like this: in some alliances  you have to swear a measure of loyalty to the alliance and its leaders, right? I remember when I was in Ragnarok I had to swear an oath to the Empress. Other alliances have something like that. Let me take a look at SNX's admissions form. Oh! What do we have here? Your own alliance would call a member's departure treasonous unless they follow your very specific requirements for departure. How are you, therefore, able to claim that you are any different?
    Quote

    I, (state your name), do solemnly swear
    Loyalty and service unto the Imperium
    To speak and to be silent, to do and to let be,
    To come and to go, in need and in plenty,
    In peace and in war, in living and in dying,
    From this hour henceforth,
    until the Imperium releases me,
    EZI take me, or the game ends.

    Note: During peacetime, the Imperium will release all members who post in the assigned resignation thread and have no outstanding debt to the alliance.

  2. Sephiroth started sanction wars to protect rogues sanctioned by other color teams. Which, per point 2 of your first list, he was well within his rights to do.
  3. Sephiroth allows his members to threaten individual wars against other alliances. Okay, so what's your point? That his members have a greater degree of individual sovereignty than your members?
  4. Animalz has pursued PZI against new nations that fight back against raids. See my italics in point #3. You don't like it, fight a war, get some sanctions going, do something besides complaining.
  5. Sephiroth claimed jurisdiction over Supernova X, which resulted in a two month war. Can I ask, where did this jurisdiction come from? Did he offer your alliance terms that you decided weren't in your alliance's best interests? I'm guessing here, since I honestly have no idea on this one.

 

As a matter of SNX and Atlas, if I had my way, your alliance would have been curbstomped over a year ago. You're right, I am definitely government in Atlas. I also hold absolutely no sway when it comes to wars, or treaties for that matter: by personal design. I'll buy tech off anyone who wants to deal with me, I don't discriminate. You have the tech? I have the cash. It's literally that simple. As long as your alliance isn't trying to screw mine over, mazel tov!

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28 minutes ago, Grealind said:

You want to discuss logic from the OP? Alrighty, let's do this!

  1. That alliance members are free to leave during peacetime (assuming no debts). Conditionally, and I get back to this in a moment.
  2. That alliance sovereigns coordinate to sanction rogues across color teams. You are bitter because Sephiroth managed to do this more successfully than you.
  3. That alliance members cede diplomatic and military authority to the alliance sovereign. You realize this is not the "norm" in every alliance, right? While it may be the norm in alliances that you've interacted with, for the most part, it's obviously not an obligatory style of alliance structure. You are attempting to enforce this very narrow mold onto another alliance, in an effort to while not necessarily coup them, enforce a certain measure of your will onto them. You talk about sovereignty, yet by this very thread, you seek to breach the sovereignty of another alliance.
  4.  That raiding of non-aligned nations should be restrained in nature. Why? If you are dumb enough not to join an alliance, then your money, your technology, your infrastructure and land, is free for the taking and the burning. Once again, you are attempting to exert a level of control over another alliance.
  5. That alliance sovereigns do not claim jurisdiction over other alliances. Yet you breach the very sovereignty that you claim to hold so dear, straight in points 3 and 4.

 

2. My problem is with Methrage interfering with sanctioning of rogues, when sanctions are normal on every other color-sphere. This is not simply a breach of civilized custom, but it also weakens us as a team. Senators of other color teams have no reason to enforce our sanction requests elsewhere, when we cannot do the same for them here on brown.

3. Point me toward any major alliance today, our size or bigger, that officially allows members to attack or threaten any nation they want in any other alliance. Alliances like Animalz and Monsters Inc are outcasts for a reason.

4. Most large alliances either prohibit raiding entirely, or have rules of engagement that prevents public relations issues. The handful of exceptions like the old GOONS are just that, exceptions.

5. I did not define points 3 or 4 as laws, they are instead natural tendencies that tend to be followed by large alliances for the sake of stability.

 

 

Quote

 

  1. Sephiroth has claimed that leaving LPCN is "treason." I agree, to a certain extent. Think about it like this: in some alliances  you have to swear a measure of loyalty to the alliance and its leaders, right? I remember when I was in Ragnarok I had to swear an oath to the Empress. Other alliances have something like that. Let me take a look at SNX's admissions form. Oh! What do we have here? Your own alliance would call a member's departure treasonous unless they follow your very specific requirements for departure. How are you, therefore, able to claim that you are any different?
  2. Sephiroth started sanction wars to protect rogues sanctioned by other color teams. Which, per point 2 of your first list, he was well within his rights to do.
  3. Sephiroth allows his members to threaten individual wars against other alliances. Okay, so what's your point? That his members have a greater degree of individual sovereignty than your members?
  4. Animalz has pursued PZI against new nations that fight back against raids. See my italics in point #3. You don't like it, fight a war, get some sanctions going, do something besides complaining.
  5. Sephiroth claimed jurisdiction over Supernova X, which resulted in a two month war. Can I ask, where did this jurisdiction come from? Did he offer your alliance terms that you decided weren't in your alliance's best interests? I'm guessing here, since I honestly have no idea on this one.[/quote]

 

1. LPCN is a political party, not an alliance. I don't particularly care if Methrage claims it's treason to leave LN (barbarian nonsense); however I have been pointing out his hypocrisy in saying that it's treason for an AA to leave LPCN (meaning the subject AA is not sovereign), but it wasn't ok for SNX to hit the entire LPCN when Animalz attacked. Oculus set the same standard as SNX by attacking SPATR as well as MONGOLS.

3. The problem is Methrage trying to deny responsibility for the actions of his members. I am pointing this out to alliances that might otherwise support him.

4. SNX is not world police, it was a point made to distinguish LPCN from the world community.

5. Methrage's court thread stated he had the right to try the government officials of a sovereign alliance, which is a direct claim of sovereignty over another alliance.

Edited by Immortan Junka
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Regarding point 5 (the second point 5): Immortan, I hereby sentence you to some random sentence for an indeterminate amount of time because I don't like the way you included Atlas in your original OP. I am not claiming I have sovereignty over your alliance, or even you for that matter. I am however saying that I'm holding you responsible for something, and will to the best of my ability hold you to whatever I decided to sentence you to.

 

So what if Sephiroth wants to do something different that other larger alliances aren't doing? It's his prerogative as the leader of his alliance. As far as the Senate goes, if you have that much of an issue with him having a Senate seat, then get your members to vote him out. If your members alone, and I think you have 60 or so right, are unable to do so, then reach out to your fellow brown alliances, including the smaller brown alliances, and try to convince them to support a second candidate from SNX, or from another Brown alliance. If that isn't an option, then try recruiting more members to Brown and to your alliance, and then try pushing him out of the Senate by voting. Obviously there are enough Brown members who believe that Sephiroth has their best interests at heart if he keeps getting the Senate seat.

 

On a related note, he has on several occasions called for Brown unity, while through this thread you are calling for the exact opposite. Perhaps instead of calling him out on all the differences the two of you have, maybe grab some olive garden and find some common ground.

 

edit: follow up, if you polled your entire alliance and asked them if they would rather burn through their resources fighting or would instead prefer to try bridge building and relationship mending, how many would really rather burn their nations to the ground?

Edited by Grealind
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6 minutes ago, Grealind said:

Regarding point 5 (the second point 5): Immortan, I hereby sentence you to some random sentence for an indeterminate amount of time because I don't like the way you included Atlas in your original OP. I am not claiming I have sovereignty over your alliance, or even you for that matter. I am however saying that I'm holding you responsible for something, and will to the best of my ability hold you to whatever I decided to sentence you to.

 

So what if Sephiroth wants to do something different that other larger alliances aren't doing? It's his prerogative as the leader of his alliance. As far as the Senate goes, if you have that much of an issue with him having a Senate seat, then get your members to vote him out. If your members alone, and I think you have 60 or so right, are unable to do so, then reach out to your fellow brown alliances, including the smaller brown alliances, and try to convince them to support a second candidate from SNX, or from another Brown alliance. If that isn't an option, then try recruiting more members to Brown and to your alliance, and then try pushing him out of the Senate by voting. Obviously there are enough Brown members who believe that Sephiroth has their best interests at heart if he keeps getting the Senate seat.

 

On a related note, he has on several occasions called for Brown unity, while through this thread you are calling for the exact opposite. Perhaps instead of calling him out on all the differences the two of you have, maybe grab some olive garden and find some common ground.

 

edit: follow up, if you polled your entire alliance and asked them if they would rather burn through their resources fighting or would instead prefer to try bridge building and relationship mending, how many would really rather burn their nations to the ground?

 

Animalz attacked us after I rejected his claim of sovereignty in his court thread:

 

Our goal has always been peace, but we aren't intimidated by bullies and tyrants either. Our low-tier has been rocked with spy attacks in the last two weeks while Methrage and The Rebel threatens to attack us.

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4 minutes ago, Immortan Junka said:

Our goal has always been peace, but we aren't intimidated by bullies and tyrants either. Our low-tier has been rocked with spy attacks in the last two weeks while Methrage and The Rebel threatens to attack us.

If your goal is peace, then stop with the posturing and go seek out peace.

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I never claimed sovereignty over SNX, I suggested a leadership change because I could foresee even back then this obsession you have with us wasn't going away and was going to  be a constant issue.

 

You are a liability for SNX as their leader, since you've decided its your mission to be our enemy. Unless the rest of the SNX agrees with you having chosen to make SNX our enemy over the last few months, it would make sense to change leadership. Although if they want to follow you into these wars against us, then I don't care. I just don't think you are a good fit for leader with your obsession, but if they want to follow you down that road its up to them.

 

As I've been thinking about our response, I see you continuing to slander us rather than apologize for creating this thread meant to slander us.

Edited by Sephiroth
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6 minutes ago, Sephiroth said:

Your political opposition failed to remove me, so you're resorting to non-stop slander and I think its been well established that is grounds to get hit.

 

Your warmongering does not intimidate the Imperium, all you are capable of doing is destroying, while Supernova X has built a strong economy and active member-base. Your tyranny will never prevail against our sovereignty and freedom.

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Just now, Immortan Junka said:

 

Your warmongering does not intimidate the Imperium, all you are capable of doing is destroying, while Supernova X has built a strong economy and active member-base. Your tyranny will never prevail against our sovereignty and freedom.

In the last war, you declared on Limitless Nexus because I spoke out against you.

 

Also there is no freedom in SNX, so enough of the jokes. Your whole position is an anti-freedom one, which is why you've decided the LPC is your enemy.

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1 minute ago, Immortan Junka said:

Our members are free to leave without being called "traitors."

 

Our Imperium liberates new nations from the state of nature, allowing them to achieve prosperity unlike most of the nations in LPCN.

 

 

You get how this makes you sounds like a controlling and immovable dictator right?

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3 minutes ago, Immortan Junka said:

Our members are free to leave without being called "traitors."

 

Our Imperium liberates new nations from the state of nature, allowing them to achieve prosperity unlike most of the nations in LPCN.

 

 

"Anyone who will not fight at your side is an enemy meant to be crushed", I'm sure they are free to leave.:rolleyes:

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5 minutes ago, Grealind said:

You get how this makes you sounds like a controlling and immovable dictator right?

 

The number one alliance in this world is an autocratic democracy not to mention your own ally, our government emulates the best system known to mankind.

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It seems Kashmir still has a nation in range who wasn't broke or in peace mode, so I used my slot which opened up on him rather than your nations who are still broke and beaten from our last war.

 

Quote

 

You have just conducted a spy operation against the nation of Heinleiner. In the attack your spy efforts were successful as your spies were able to gather the following information about the nation:

Last Tax Collection: 5/22/2016 5:45:23 PM
Last Bill Payment: 5/25/2016 2:37:48 PM
Desired Religion: Baha'i Faith
Desired Government: Dictatorship
Threat Level: Low
Tax Rate: 30%
Number of Spies: 790
Last Nuke Purchase: 5/22/2016 5:47:14 PM
Last Wonder Purchase: 12/3/2015
Total Money: $993,789,383
Technology: 1,499.04 Levels
Trade Partners: NEPAL, Blissfields, Afro Pick, Alvarez
Secret Aid Sent To: None
Military XP Ratings: Army XP: 155, Navy XP: 80, Air Force XP: 1124, Intelligence XP: 169
Assigned Generals: None

 

 

I attacked the improvement & wonder stacked nation in range who has 1.5k tech rather than hit your nations, since I'd rather fight the enemy at hand rather than get distracted by a nobody. However if you keep portraying us as an enemy, that could make it true for SNX.

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