Rayvon Posted March 26, 2016 Report Share Posted March 26, 2016 I know, was being "ignorant" for the humour. sarcasm and text and what not. He's just used to ignorant for ignorance sake. Forgive him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Virginia Posted March 26, 2016 Report Share Posted March 26, 2016 How is this an upgrade? They went from being a protectorate, which you were nominally obligated to defend, to an ODP partner, for which you now have the choice whether or not to defend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Zigur Posted March 26, 2016 Report Share Posted March 26, 2016 So now Doom has no obligations to defend SNX... I fail to see how Junka can see this as an upgrade. You make the assumption that SNX would automatically request help from our allies if we are attacked, protectorate or otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvon Posted March 26, 2016 Report Share Posted March 26, 2016 You make the assumption that SNX would automatically request help from our allies if we are attacked, protectorate or otherwise. You make the assumption an assumption was being made. Rather, a point of detail was made. A protectorate has a mandatory Protector to Protectorate clause, whereas this is purely optional for DK as it is now written. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the rebel Posted March 26, 2016 Report Share Posted March 26, 2016 You make the assumption an assumption was being made. Rather, a point of detail was made. A protectorate has a mandatory Protector to Protectorate clause, whereas this is purely optional for DK as it is now written. It's probably an MDP disguised as an ODP... In someones head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Zigur Posted March 26, 2016 Report Share Posted March 26, 2016 You make the assumption an assumption was being made. Rather, a point of detail was made. A protectorate has a mandatory Protector to Protectorate clause, whereas this is purely optional for DK as it is now written. I understand what is being overtly stated but it is an upgrade because SNX and DK have a peer to peer relationship now. Most of DK's treaties are ODoAPs and that is a philosophy I embrace as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canik Posted March 26, 2016 Report Share Posted March 26, 2016 Well said, Junka. It definitely is an upgrade in that way. If people think about it in reverse too - would going from ODoAP to Protectorate really be considered an upgrade in their eyes? xD Any self-respecting sovereign alliance does NOT want to be a Protectorate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the rebel Posted March 26, 2016 Report Share Posted March 26, 2016 If people think about it in reverse too - would going from ODoAP to Protectorate really be considered an upgrade in their eyes? xD Non-guaranteed or guaranteed defence, yes you could see it as an upgrade. Normally protectorates stay protectorates or upgrade to an MDP. An MDP with non chaining is an ODP. Looks like SNX wasn't worth the risk with one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canik Posted March 26, 2016 Report Share Posted March 26, 2016 Non-guaranteed or guaranteed defence, yes you could see it as an upgrade. Normally protectorates stay protectorates or upgrade to an MDP. An MDP with non chaining is an ODP. Looks like SNX wasn't worth the risk with one of them. You could see it as an upgrade that way, but overall I'd still consider it a downgrade personally. Has anyone here ever had an ODP ally come up to you and say, "Hey, want to upgrade to a protectorate?" No, of course not it'd be absurd. And a big reason for it is protectorates generally do have less sovereignty, and it is humiliating to be considered a protectoree. Plus like you say, a non-chaining MDP is very close to an ODP. Who would not optionally defend an ally if they were attacked unprovoked? Maybe some would choose to opt-out, but a lot of alliances do take their ODPs quite seriously. Anyway, if you haven't noticed, Doomsphere rarely signs anything above an ODP as it is. It's no insult to SNX that it's an ODP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the rebel Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 Anyway, if you haven't noticed, Doomsphere rarely signs anything above an ODP as it is. It's no insult to SNX that it's an ODP. Of those, how many started out as protectorates? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devialance Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 You could see it as an upgrade that way, but overall I'd still consider it a downgrade personally. Has anyone here ever had an ODP ally come up to you and say, "Hey, want to upgrade to a protectorate?" No, of course not it'd be absurd. And a big reason for it is protectorates generally do have less sovereignty, and it is humiliating to be considered a protectoree. Plus like you say, a non-chaining MDP is very close to an ODP. Who would not optionally defend an ally if they were attacked unprovoked? Maybe some would choose to opt-out, but a lot of alliances do take their ODPs quite seriously. Anyway, if you haven't noticed, Doomsphere rarely signs anything above an ODP as it is. It's no insult to SNX that it's an ODP. Well it would be an upgrade, you are only looking the treaty of SNX Protectorate vs SNX ODP with DK, however have you thought about all the extra freedom an alliance has when they are no longer a protectorate but a treaty partner ?, when they have grown enough to no longer need protecting ?, so yes it is an upgrade no matter how you wish to look at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Zigur Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 (edited) Of those, how many started out as protectorates? SNX started as a sanctioned alliance, not a protectorate. Go back to nuking defenseless new nations rather than attempting political commentary, you are only good at the former. Edited March 27, 2016 by Immortan Junka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the rebel Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 (edited) SNX started as a sanctioned alliance, not a protectorate. Go back to nuking defenseless new nations rather than attempting political commentary, you are only good at the former. Reading isn't your strong point I see Junka... Out of all I've faced only two were non nuclear nations and I have nuked 3 times between them in a whole round, so nice try. But at least we agree on something you're one of those newbs. :D Anyways what you doing posting here, haven't you got your arse to sell? Since your pathetic excuse of a nation has required so much money to fight that you're becoming a joke. Edited March 27, 2016 by the rebel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Chocolate Posted March 27, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 (edited) So now Doom has no obligations to defend SNX... I fail to see how Junka can see this as an upgrade. Simple. As you are aware, the ODoAP has all the basics that a protectorate agreement has (attached NAP, intelligence clause, military, etc.) except that neither party is required to defend the other. The optional defense avoids tedious "legal" arguments from third parties about what the signatories SHOULD "legally" be doing given X or Y situation. If a mutual agreement is signed that is not always the case. An optional military agreement allows for the leadership of both alliances to do as they both consider best if, to give a hypothetical example, one signatory is attacked for the purpose of bringing in the other in an attempt to manipulate the treaty web in the attackers favor. The vast majority of Doom Kingdom's military treaties are optional, btw. Just in case you didn't know :P Edited March 27, 2016 by White Chocolate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvon Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 (edited) Simple. As you are aware, the ODoAP has all the basics that a protectorate agreement has (attached NAP, intelligence clause, military, etc.) except that neither party is required to defend the other. The optional defense avoids tedious "legal" arguments from third parties about what the signatories SHOULD "legally" be doing given X or Y situation. If a mutual agreement is signed that is not always the case. An optional military agreement allows for the leadership of both alliances to do as they both consider best if, to give a hypothetical example, one signatory is attacked for the purpose of bringing in the other in an attempt to manipulate the treaty web in the attackers favor. The vast majority of Doom Kingdom's military treaties are optional, btw. Just in case you didn't know :P It doesn't change the fact that the treaty is entirely optional as you describe it here - as Grub had pointed out in the quote you responded to to refute. There is no mandatory clause, as you clarify for us, that obligates you to take action as per the words of the treaty. Provides option to leave him out in the cold without violating an obligation [pointed out in the statement of 'peer to peer' giving him leeway to be an asshat without your obligation to bail him out]. This is the stated fact of optional treaties, consistent across the board whether or not the majority of your treaties are optional or not. You know, such as now. Where SNX is starting to eat it from Polar for failures of his leadership and person. Your protectorate would essentially force you to be in action right now - as opposed to optionally sitting back as you are while Junka "doesn't request help." Sovereign freedom gained? Sure. Freedom to become a crater alone. Edited March 27, 2016 by Rayvon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Chocolate Posted March 27, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 Where SNX is starting to eat it from Polar for failures of his leadership and person. Your protectorate would essentially force you to be in action right now - as opposed to optionally sitting back as you are while Junka "doesn't request help." Sovereign freedom gained? Sure. Freedom to become a crater alone. SNX is taking damaged and becoming a "crater" for one reason only, because the New Polar Order attacked them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvon Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 (edited) SNX is taking damaged and becoming a "crater" for one reason only, because the New Polar Order attacked them. Why? Surely not anything to do with Junka ... Not at all ... Your involvement now is wisely optional - as I said in your quote of me, so you don't gotta worry none. Well played. Edited March 27, 2016 by Rayvon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Zigur Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 (edited) Can we please not pretend that the Imperium is a helpless victim hoodwinked by Doom Kingdom? We all know that Holton leaked information about a planned war of aggression by Polar against Doom. Polar has supported Methrage, supplying him with aid with which he nuked our new nations. When we implored them to stop, Grub sneered at us. The Imperium is a peace-loving alliance, we have never started a war without a concrete Casus Belli, and Polar has shown zero honor in attacking us. They attempt to rob us of the prosperity and freedom we have worked so hard for. So in turn, I will seek to hurt them as they have hurt us. Polar calls us cowards, yet they have elected to strike at tiny SNX, fearful of fighting mighty Doom itself. Grub compares us to excrement on a boot, in reality we are excrement on a punji stake. We will see how they like having a foot infection. Edited March 27, 2016 by Immortan Junka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hitchcock Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 (edited) Can we please not pretend that the Imperium is a helpless victim hoodwinked by Doom Kingdom? We all know that Holton leaked information about a planned war of aggression by Polar against Doom. Polar has supported Methrage, supplying him with aid with which he nuked our new nations. When we implored them to stop, Grub sneered at us. The Imperium is a peace-loving alliance, we have never started a war without a concrete Casus Belli, and Polar has shown zero honor in attacking us. They attempt to rob us of the prosperity and freedom we have worked so hard for. So in turn, I will seek to hurt them as they have hurt us. Polar calls us cowards, yet they have elected to strike at tiny SNX, fearful of fighting mighty Doom itself. Grub compares us to excrement on a boot, in reality we are excrement on a punji stake. We will see how they like having a foot infection. To be fair, Grub did talk more highly of you, he claimed you at 700NS and last I checked you were barely pushing 200Ns.... And per the Holton leaks, I encourage you to listen to Monsters Inc News Edited March 27, 2016 by Lord Hitchcock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the rebel Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 Can we please not pretend that the Imperium is a helpless victim hoodwinked by Doom Kingdom? So you're saying DK is coming in to save your sorry arse? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Virginia Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 Any self-respecting sovereign alliance does NOT want to be a Protectorate. Since when is SNX a self-respecting sovereign alliance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvon Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 Can we please not pretend that the Imperium is a helpless victim hoodwinked by Doom Kingdom? We all know that Holton leaked information about a planned war of aggression by Polar against Doom. Polar has supported Methrage, supplying him with aid with which he nuked our new nations. When we implored them to stop, Grub sneered at us. The Imperium is a peace-loving alliance, we have never started a war without a concrete Casus Belli, and Polar has shown zero honor in attacking us. They attempt to rob us of the prosperity and freedom we have worked so hard for. So in turn, I will seek to hurt them as they have hurt us. Polar calls us cowards, yet they have elected to strike at tiny SNX, fearful of fighting mighty Doom itself. Grub compares us to excrement on a boot, in reality we are excrement on a punji stake. We will see how they like having a foot infection. Hoodwinked by DK? No, SNX was hoodwinked by you. DK has just wisely separated themselves after multitudes of examples by yourself as to why they should - surely you're not responsible for the negative tones you've garnered across every political line since even before your name change. You have created all this situation, you are responsible for the ire towards SNX - towards yourself. DK made a move to let you have your freedom you so strongly desire, lifted their skirt so you could step out from under it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigrun Vapneir Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 The Imperium is a peace-loving alliance, we have never started a war without a concrete Casus Belli, and Polar has shown zero honor in attacking us. They attempt to rob us of the prosperity and freedom we have worked so hard for. You owe me a new keyboard buddy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlmightyGrub Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 You owe me a new keyboard buddy. If we are keeping count, I need my screen cleaned as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helbrecht Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 Congrats on finally not needing protection anymore (again) SNX. My god, Methrage, I understand this inevitably comes as a surprise but not everything is about you. Give it up and for the betterment of CN go away already!This, so much this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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