Jrenster Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Jrenster; Propaganda tool of the Pacifican Powermonger- it appears that your friend has yet to receive your cue to dial down and support your arguments. It is quite contradictory and confusing for the outsider looking in, to see you both denounce and embrace your oppressive nature. I would therefore be appreciative if you could shed some light upon this. Oh no you got me. The jig is up guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Partisan Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Nobody is trying to convince you to change your views or make you believe that we are a benevolent hegemon. That wasn't the argument or the debate. If you want to talk about that, talk about it with someone else more interested. I am simply defending the assertion that we don't send grunts to do our work. In fact, in every single one of our wars (both of them), Oculus and only Oculus has participated. That is all. Everything else you're talking about is not relevant to our discussion. Ah. The callout and the sidestep. The pivot after the stab. The twist and the turn. Well done my friend. You learn fast. Why is it that you refuse to engage with me in meaningful discussion? Is it not debate that allows for the hearts and minds of the world to be swayed? I would suppose that you are correct: The Samurai Division of the Pacifican Empire can theoretically speaking be considered a part of your domain, for it is free will they lack. I have been thought to call a spade a spade, and a puppet a puppet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrenster Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 I am not going to get into that argument again. If you want a history lesson, I suggest you either ask someone who cares, or go back a few pages in Alliance Announcements and World Affairs to find the relevant information. Do you get to decide what somebody else does for what reason? Or does the person who is actually doing the thing gets to decide why they are doing the thing? Truly a confounding philosophical dilemma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Partisan Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Oh no you got me. The jig is up guys Your confirmation is appreciated. It is as I suspected. Empty drivel by the empire's minions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Partisan Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Do you get to decide what somebody else does for what reason? Or does the person who is actually doing the thing gets to decide why they are doing the thing? Truly a confounding philosophical dilemma. The confounding philosophical dilemma lies in discerning whether you are deliberately obfuscating the inherent cause-effect relationship between your presentation of your actions, and the perception the public has of your actions, or whether you simply do not have a proper understanding of such causuality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petro Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Jrenster; Propaganda tool of the Pacifican Powermonger- it appears that your friend has yet to receive your cue to dial down and support your arguments. It is quite contradictory and confusing for the outsider looking in, to see you both denounce and embrace your oppressive nature. I would therefore be appreciative if you could shed some light upon this. I wasn't aware of us denouncing anything besides warrantless sanctions and stating anything as fact without first consulting Unknown Smurf. Then again there are a lot of things I am not aware of. Just moments ago I was informed that we once rolled MI6 for no reason at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vladimir Poutine Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Do you get to decide what somebody else does for what reason? Or does the person who is actually doing the thing gets to decide why they are doing the thing? Truly a confounding philosophical dilemma. Naturally, I cannot physically make a decision for another person and/or group as to whether or not they do something. I am not capable of mind control. I do not understand what whether or not I have the capacity to control others' decisions has to do with my post, however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrenster Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Ah. The callout and the sidestep. The pivot after the stab. The twist and the turn. Well done my friend. You learn fast. Why is it that you refuse to engage with me in meaningful discussion? Is it not debate that allows for the hearts and minds of the world to be swayed? I would suppose that you are correct: The Samurai Division of the Pacifican Empire can theoretically speaking be considered a part of your domain, for it is free will they lack. I have been thought to call a spade a spade, and a puppet a puppet. Because I don't care if you think we are the bad guys. In every single alliance I've been in (I suppose just NSO and NPO), I've been the bad guy to somebody. So I'm done convincing people otherwise. Maybe somebody else cares. Debate with them. You seem more concerned about our PR than I am. Maybe you can be our PR guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Partisan Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 I wasn't aware of us denouncing anything besides warrantless sanctions and stating anything as fact without first consulting Unknown Smurf. Then again there are a lot of things I am not aware of. Just moments ago I was informed that we once rolled MI6 for no reason at all. We are happy to be of service in educating you on your own actions. It is truly a sad state of being when the leg kicks, but the brain does not register. That state of affairs does support my previously iterated theory about the imminent fall of your empire however. Decline and inefficiency tends to kick in at the tail-end of the lifespan of any entity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrenster Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 The confounding philosophical dilemma lies in discerning whether you are deliberately obfuscating the inherent cause-effect relationship between your presentation of your actions, and the perception the public has of your actions, or whether you simply do not have a proper understanding of such causuality. Naturally, I cannot physically make a decision for another person and/or group as to whether or not they do something. I am not capable of mind control. I do not understand what whether or not I have the capacity to control others' decisions has to do with my post, however. Even if you wanted to debate your perception of the events that followed, you legitimately cannot deny that MI6 was being antagonistic. Even if you think that is a weak reason to go to war, that is still a reason nevertheless. But that is still a perception of events that is emphatically wrong. The fact of the matter is that Oculus didn't hit MI6 for "no reason". Oculus had reasons, and acted upon them. If you choose to ignore those reasons for the sake of your public perception; fine ignore them. But that's called being delusional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Partisan Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Because I don't care if you think we are the bad guys. In every single alliance I've been in (I suppose just NSO and NPO), I've been the bad guy to somebody. So I'm done convincing people otherwise. Maybe somebody else cares. Debate with them. You seem more concerned about our PR than I am. Maybe you can be our PR guy. Oh but I would never claim that you are the bad guy in this unfortunate scenario. You are part of an opportunistic, hegemonic entity that has a fundamental misunderstanding of the impact of its actions on its long-term viability. There is nothing inherently evil or good about that: It merely is. I find it telling however that you would place yourself in the category of 'bad'. Word choice often betrays desires, fears and guilt. Word choice subconsciously weaves emotion into debate, and one can often learn more from this, than from the argument itself. Tell me, Jrenster the Careless of the Caring Pacificans- why is it that you consider your empire to be the 'bad guys'? Is it a desire for you to be labeled as such, or is it borne out of guilt over the forced disbandments you have pushed, and the wars of annihilation you have waged? I must graciously decline your offer to be in charge of your PR- it would be unwise to take over the PR of a declining empire. It would provide me with none of the boons, yet all of the hardship of witnessing the inevitable fall. I wish you the best of luck though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimaera Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Even if you wanted to debate your perception of the events that followed, you legitimately cannot deny that MI6 was being antagonistic. Even if you think that is a weak reason to go to war, that is still a reason nevertheless. But that is still a perception of events that is emphatically wrong. The fact of the matter is that Oculus didn't hit MI6 for "no reason". Oculus had reasons, and acted upon them. If you choose to ignore those reasons for the sake of your public perception; fine ignore them. But that's called being delusional. I have, I can, and I will continue to deny that MI6 was in any way, shape, or form being 'antagonistic' in the leadup to the previous war. However, this is all rather irrelevant. The relevant 'antagonism' in this particular thread is Sengoku and Oculus' towards SPATR and BONES, their attempted (and failed) antagonism towards Kashmir, and their remarkably transparent attempt at drawing the larger Doomsphere into a war despite holding multiple mutual treaties one would normally think would preclude military action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auctor Posted March 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 I have, I can, and I will continue to deny that MI6 was in any way, shape, or form being 'antagonistic' in the leadup to the previous war.We know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Partisan Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Even if you wanted to debate your perception of the events that followed, you legitimately cannot deny that MI6 was being antagonistic. Even if you think that is a weak reason to go to war, that is still a reason nevertheless. But that is still a perception of events that is emphatically wrong. The fact of the matter is that Oculus didn't hit MI6 for "no reason". Oculus had reasons, and acted upon them. If you choose to ignore those reasons for the sake of your public perception; fine ignore them. But that's called being delusional. I am truly confused as to why we are bringing MI6 into this conversation. While I can appreciate your attempt at deflection, I would prefer focusing on your wars of annihilation against The Phoenix Federation and the Siberian Tiger Alliance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrenster Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Oh but I would never claim that you are the bad guy in this unfortunate scenario. You are part of an opportunistic, hegemonic entity that has a fundamental misunderstanding of the impact of its actions on its long-term viability. There is nothing inherently evil or good about that: It merely is. I find it telling however that you would place yourself in the category of 'bad'. Word choice often betrays desires, fears and guilt. Word choice subconsciously weaves emotion into debate, and one can often learn more from this, than from the argument itself. Tell me, Jrenster the Careless of the Caring Pacificans- why is it that you consider your empire to be the 'bad guys'? Is it a desire for you to be labeled as such, or is it borne out of guilt over the forced disbandments you have pushed, and the wars of annihilation you have waged? I must graciously decline your offer to be in charge of your PR- it would be unwise to take over the PR of a declining empire. It would provide me with none of the boons, yet all of the hardship of witnessing the inevitable fall. I wish you the best of luck though. Funny, I thought I said " I don't care if you think we are the bad guys", and "I've been the bad guy to somebody", implying the very lesson about perception that you so desperately wanted to be heard. I think it's hilarious that you claim that I was sidestepping, when you spent all of this time to sidestep into this entire other conversation no one wants to have with you. And why does no one else want to have this conversation with you? Perhaps because you lack brevity. Maybe you are condescending. Or maybe because you are very obviously pretending to be well spoken, when you are not. I don't know. It's perception, as you say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrenster Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 I am truly confused as to why we are bringing MI6 into this conversation. While I can appreciate your attempt at deflection, I would prefer focusing on your wars of annihilation against The Phoenix Federation and the Siberian Tiger Alliance. Because: Well, there was that one time you rolled MI6 for no reason at all. I would say that could be construed as tyrannical action. If you are truly confused, then I cannot help you further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branimir Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 The powerless have spoken, The masters that wanted to be, power that dreamed it could, But outwitted, outplayed, dominated it stands, Inferior in every way, footnote of history, their pain has taken words, The last resort they have to hold on to, Of any importance left in the world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vladimir Poutine Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Even if you wanted to debate your perception of the events that followed, you legitimately cannot deny that MI6 was being antagonistic. Even if you think that is a weak reason to go to war, that is still a reason nevertheless. But that is still a perception of events that is emphatically wrong. The fact of the matter is that Oculus didn't hit MI6 for "no reason". Oculus had reasons, and acted upon them. If you choose to ignore those reasons for the sake of your public perception; fine ignore them. But that's called being delusional. I can neither confirm nor deny the public's perception of MI6, nor can I comment on the nature of it, as I was a member of MI6 at the time of these events and not a member of the public. It is true that I can only speculate on Oculus' decision to go to war with MI6, as I was not a member of the government of any Oculus or inner-circle Oculus alliance at the time. However I can comment on the public's perception of your aggressive action against us, as I was a part of this public because, as already stated, I was not in Oculus government. And the general perception of the non-Oculus public seems to be that the war was unjustifiable and that Oculus attacked MI6 either to eliminate us while we were isolated as a potential future threat to their monopoly on power, or because they simply did not like us. The general consensus amongst the non-Oculus public is that this war was an act of aggression by Oculus and therefore something to be condemned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shahenshah Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 (edited) I can neither confirm nor deny the public's perception of MI6, nor can I comment on the nature of it, as I was a member of MI6 at the time of these events and not a member of the public. It is true that I can only speculate on Oculus' decision to go to war with MI6, as I was not a member of the government of any Oculus or inner-circle Oculus alliance at the time. However I can comment on the public's perception of your aggressive action against us, as I was a part of this public because, as already stated, I was not in Oculus government. And the general perception of the non-Oculus public seems to be that the war was unjustifiable and that Oculus attacked MI6 either to eliminate us while we were isolated as a potential future threat to their monopoly on power, or because they simply did not like us. The general consensus amongst the non-Oculus public is that this war was an act of aggression by Oculus and therefore something to be condemned. Looks like a biased opinion. Edited March 22, 2016 by shahenshah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrenster Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 I can neither confirm nor deny the public's perception of MI6, nor can I comment on the nature of it, as I was a member of MI6 at the time of these events and not a member of the public. It is true that I can only speculate on Oculus' decision to go to war with MI6, as I was not a member of the government of any Oculus or inner-circle Oculus alliance at the time. However I can comment on the public's perception of your aggressive action against us, as I was a part of this public because, as already stated, I was not in Oculus government. And the general perception of the non-Oculus public seems to be that the war was unjustifiable and that Oculus attacked MI6 either to eliminate us while we were isolated as a potential future threat to their monopoly on power, or because they simply did not like us. The general consensus amongst the non-Oculus public is that this war was an act of aggression by Oculus and therefore something to be condemned. As much as I want to continue to debate this point with you, Chim is right in that this is irrelevant. Drag it up somewhere else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petro Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 I have, I can, and I will continue to deny that MI6 was in any way, shape, or form being 'antagonistic' in the leadup to the previous war. However, this is all rather irrelevant. The relevant 'antagonism' in this particular thread is Sengoku and Oculus' towards SPATR and BONES, their attempted (and failed) antagonism towards Kashmir, and their remarkably transparent attempt at drawing the larger Doomsphere into a war despite holding multiple mutual treaties one would normally think would preclude military action. Pretty sure that Caliph, White Chocolate and myself have addressed the drawing in of Doomsphere multiple times, but please, do tell us what we are really thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shahenshah Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 (edited) Pretty sure that Caliph, White Chocolate and myself have addressed the drawing in of Doomsphere multiple times, but please, do tell us what we are really thinking. Well, you can add Chim to the esteemed list of personalities such as berbers (you're still a friend :P), holton, unkown smurf, hitchok, ridley, isolator and a couple others hoping for a Doom-Occulus war. Edited March 22, 2016 by shahenshah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berbers Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Well, you can add Chim to the esteemed list of personalities such as berbers (you're still a friend :P), holton, unkown smurf, hitchok, ridley, isolator and a couple others hoping for a Doom-Occulus war. Hey I am not hoping for a doom vs occulus war, i like to many people on both sides. I loathe Valhalla and have to back BONES up because he backed up Addaff, nothing more to me than that :P Obligatory Umbrella sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petro Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Hey I am not hoping for a doom vs occulus war, i like to many people on both sides. I loathe Valhalla and have to back BONES up because he backed up Addaff, nothing more to me than that :P Obligatory Umbrella sucks. Civility and reasonable decisions like doing something to back your friends? Where am I at because this is not the discussion forum I thought I knew. Obligatory agreement on Umbrella. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crownguard Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Apparently we've been slipping on our Umbrella Arrogance to be getting such flak from our lessers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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