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You know, if NPO and all you other boobs in EQ had spent half as much time enforcing the anti-DBDC terms in the peace agreement as you did shaking hands before the war began, we could have avoided this entire situation.

 

The effort keeping such a huge group of diverse alliances together in a war was too much.  The anti Umbrella coalition fractured at the end and was unable/unwilling to do what you suggested.  There is a reason the war ended the way it did, and that is the military realities of how it played out.

 

Of course now the situation has changed, but we are allied and have agreements with much of Oculus.  This current conflict is like a fight between 2 friends, which friend do you help bash the others face in?  

 

How you answer that speaks a lot about your character.

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You know, if NPO and all you other boobs in EQ had spent half as much time enforcing the anti-DBDC terms in the peace agreement as you did shaking hands before the war began, we could have avoided this entire situation.

Wooahhh man, this war has nothing to do with DBDC.
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Mongols is fighting a noble battle against the GOONS, if Oculus doesn't expand this so its not just a target its very easy to sympathize with those being hit by so many; while they fight such a battle. Then eventually Oculus won't have public support.  If this doesn't expand, the more I feel bad for SPATR for not getting more back up.

 

Even if people criticized the additional Oculus decrees to speed up previous wars, I saw the benefit in it & they were better than waiting forever for TPF/STA to jump in on their own. We need some more decrees to expand this to include more alliance, which more members can get excited about fighting.

 

I've heard from many from various Oculus alliances, "we support your wars when you're fighting GOONS," If you're ever just fighting GOONS again I'll send you aid, etc. Fighting an alliance hitting GOONS likely isn't something most in Oculus want to do, so expand the target line to those attempting to stay out while you guys & SPATR grind each other down more.

 

Oculus will need to push this along a little bit more for it to go bigger, rather than be a slow grind against the most combat prepared nations. Oculus needs to be bold & show this is much bigger than just fighting those up against GOONS. People need a war they can get excited about.

 

There isn't really a  GOONS left to fight. GOONSadism is not a sovereign entity and has no government, so the attacks were just attacks on an AA we exert control and protect and is therefore an extension of us. 

 

Your friend took over the rogue AA  some former GOONSadism members moved to when they decided to leave the world which had the name of an alliance that disbanded in 2008. The GOONS that was attacked by MONGOLS is simply some people left on the AA to prevent it from being stolen in a similar fashion to Neutral Shoving  or  stragglers who are too inactive to become members of other AAs. 

 

also FYI since there's some confusion: the GOONS Methrage claims to have disbanded were the rogues on Neutral Shoving, who simply gave up on roguing and left.

 

There's also the Sengoku issue which would have sparked this independently of GOONS. 

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No you aren't cowards, its just you are fighting targets that nobody else in Oculus will for fear of losing their top tier.  So you are going to lose some of your top tier while others who won't fight keep theirs, putting you at a disadvantage should your current political situation change.  

 

its a bad move for you.  You are going to receive damage that others in Oculus won't because they won't fight unless they have huge odds.  You should have oA'ed in others in Oculus, like IRON and NPO who have significant top tiers, and spread the damage across multiple AAs instead of just on Senogku and Umbrella.  

 

I can only hope other Oculus nations get involved so you guys don't lose a significant portion fo your top tier and Oculus lets the damage be spread over multiple top tiernations.  Its not Oculus is lacking in that regard.

 

 

I appreciate that, Caliph; I'm not in government anymore (too busy with 'otherworldly' concerns), so I can't really say much about the current conflict beyond what I know at my level.  I don't think any of us like being baited though.

 

My comment was more that it was a pretty hard spin to call someone a coward for going in on 600k and 700k nations, especially coming from some pissant anklebiter bragging about hitting tech banks.

 

Obviously I would rather us be fighting people I actively dislike, but I certainly understand the reasoning for the fight here and doing what is required of us.  As far as I'm concerned, I do whatever STORM demands of me.

 

 

 

...I still think Oculus is a stupid name though.  I much prefer the Dune theme I came up with, and I am sad that people didn't go with it all the way :(.  Frawley, if you're listening here, bring back Dune @#$% it.

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No you aren't cowards, its just you are fighting targets that nobody else in Oculus will for fear of losing their top tier.  So you are going to lose some of your top tier while others who won't fight keep theirs, putting you at a disadvantage should your current political situation change.  

 

its a bad move for you.  You are going to receive damage that others in Oculus won't because they won't fight unless they have huge odds.  You should have oA'ed in others in Oculus, like IRON and NPO who have significant top tiers, and spread the damage across multiple AAs instead of just on Senogku and Umbrella.  

 

I can only hope other Oculus nations get involved so you guys don't lose a significant portion fo your top tier and Oculus lets the damage be spread over multiple top tiernations.  Its not Oculus is lacking in that regard.

 

 
I think it's weird that you're assuming that no one else is hitting their top tier targets because the rest of Oculus are cowards, and not part of a greater strategy. Since I think you are intelligent, maybe you already know, but are spinning it otherwise anyways.

 

...I still think Oculus is a stupid name though.  I much prefer the Dune theme I came up with, and I am sad that people didn't go with it all the way :(.  Frawley, if you're listening here, bring back Dune @#$% it.

I'm with you there. The Dune theme was a seriously missed opportunity.

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Wooahhh man, this war has nothing to do with DBDC.

 

 

^^ This right here.One thing that both sides can definitely agree on, DBDC has been nothing but a good friend to alliances on either side of the conflict. I can state with certainty that we would never ask them to willfully involve themselves in a fight against their friends and I'm reasonably sure that SPaTR and Co feel the same way. But what would a conversation here be without the peanut gallery trying to drag up non issues when there are plenty of relevant things to discuss?

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Where is TAO? Their protectorate has been attacked.

 

It is common for protectors not to back their protectorates when their protectorates start aggressive wars, as was the case here by SPTR's security council.  

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...I still think Oculus is a stupid name though.  I much prefer the Dune theme I came up with, and I am sad that people didn't go with it all the way :(.  Frawley, if you're listening here, bring back Dune @#$% it.

This has my vote as well.

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I think it's weird that you're assuming that no one else is hitting their top tier targets because the rest of Oculus are cowards, and not part of a greater strategy. Since I think you are intelligent, maybe you already know, but are spinning it otherwise anyways.

 

It is a messaging thing. For example, couple of pages before;

 

 

Well you are still kind of cowards, after all you was sent in by NPO so that your top tier will burn and not theirs, that alone is an act of a coward, but i wonder if you truly thought this out, sure NPO have been known to hold a grudge and not following orders given means you will be on the list of alliances to take out, but in the end would NPO do half the damage to your top tier that Bones and Co will do, I think not.

 

Caliph just turns out to be more genuine with it.

 

Similarly, in our DoW thread you had Berbers harping on the same angle it was just Umbrella that was suppose to be the one to save their top tier while NPO burned theirs. It is a popular motive to try to play with.

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Caliph just turns out to be more genuine with it.
 
Similarly, in our DoW thread you had Berbers harping on the same angle it was just Umbrella that was suppose to be the one to save their top tier while NPO burned theirs. It is a popular motive to try to play with.

I think he's just projecting his feelings about his own alliance onto whoever he can't do anything against, as they sit it out while you guys torch their ally. (Not sure if they'll be allies after.)

So well played.
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It is a messaging thing. For example, couple of pages before;
 
 
Caliph just turns out to be more genuine with it.
 
Similarly, in our DoW thread you had Berbers harping on the same angle it was just Umbrella that was suppose to be the one to save their top tier while NPO burned theirs. It is a popular motive to try to play with.


I will turn out right in the end, if you take a standard metric such as nations greater than 25K tech right now and then look at that post war, I guarantee you Umbrella manages to have the lowest percentage reduction amongst the warring AA's.

I will even go so far to say I expect Umbrella to use this war to bring the world back to a time they had the by far dominant upper tier, before the IRON and NPO upper tier resurgence.

I can admit when I am wrong and will do so if the stats prove me wrong, but it's not like Umbrella has a reputation for going all out for coalitions, as opposed to NPO who usually shoulder far more than their fair share of a coalitions burden.
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I will turn out right in the end, if you take a standard metric such as nations greater than 25K tech right now and then look at that post war, I guarantee you Umbrella manages to have the lowest percentage reduction amongst the warring AA's.

I will even go so far to say I expect Umbrella to use this war to bring the world back to a time they had the by far dominant upper tier, before the IRON and NPO upper tier resurgence.

I can admit when I am wrong and will do so if the stats prove me wrong, but it's not like Umbrella has a reputation for going all out for coalitions, as opposed to NPO who usually shoulder far more than their fair share of a coalitions burden.

Yes, by being the first to come in against super tier nations with us, Umbrella has truly revealed its perfidy. This won't be forgotten.
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Yes, by being the first to come in against super tier nations with us, Umbrella has truly revealed its perfidy. This won't be forgotten.

Many days late and only 1 war declared against the truly monstrous nations. With friends like that, who needs enemies.

Maybe we will find out if they have turned over a NEW leaf soon :D

Edit: white fish (pollack) flavoured to taste like crab is better than actual crab. There I said it. Edited by berbers
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Many days late and only 1 war declared against the truly monstrous nations. With friends like that, who needs enemies.

Do you even check the things you say before you say them? Honest question.
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Do you even check the things you say before you say them? Honest question.


I see lots of wars involving Tim and Bones, only 1 Umb nation got in on that though. You seem to have taken the brunt of that one. My comment of them coming in many days later and not participating against the truly monstrous nations at the level they should stands.
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I see lots of wars involving Tim and Bones, only 1 Umb nation got in on that though. You seem to have taken the brunt of that one. My comment of them coming in many days later and not participating against the truly monstrous nations at the level they should stands.

I cannot imagine that you are legitimately this obtuse, because you've been around for a while, and understand how war here works. If you really don't understand why events are happening the way they are happening, maybe you need to think about this mechanically. Or perhaps think about it from the point of view of someone who is leading a war effort of our nature.

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I count 4 Umbrella wars against nations with 60k tech and above. That's a different number than 1 for those keeping score at home.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV7vGf4B4WM

Edited by Auctor
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I count 4 Umbrella wars against nations with 60k tech and above. That's a different number than 1 for those keeping score at home.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV7vGf4B4WM

Two nations are very much bigger than the rest, which there are exactly 1 umb nations fighting.

What purpose does it serve to throw Sengoku nations with less tech at Tim and BONES while the big Umb nations hit the smaller nations?

Anyway, there is almost no point in arguing when this can be easily settled by looking at the stats when the war ends. If I end up wrong, I will aknowledge that, I just don't think I will be wrong.

And it's not like I expect anyone allied to Umb to agree with me, we all know what happened to the last Umbrella ally to question their behaviour ;)

Edit: 4 umbrella wars against the biggest nations, for kicks why not look at how many Sengoku nations with comparatively low tech levels are engaged on those same nations? Edited by berbers
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We were the one with the CB. We felt it important to act on it ourselves. Solely depending on other people to do all of our work for us is not how we do things.

Does it mean we take a significant statistical hit? sure. Our allies were all informed that we intended to act to defend ourselves. How they've chosen to respond has been left up to them. I have no complaints.

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We were the one with the CB. We felt it important to act on it ourselves. Solely depending on other people to do all of our work for us is not how we do things.

Does it mean we take a significant statistical hit? sure. Our allies were all informed that we intended to act to defend ourselves. How they've chosen to respond has been left up to them. I have no complaints.

It really boils down to perception, because in my mind a good ally would have worked with you to maximize the damage to the enemy and minimize it to the coalition. My perception based on experience is that this is not how Umbrella does business. For example, if Umb had a CB against SPaTR, I highly doubt they would have thrown themselves at those monsters without asking everyone to go along for the ride.

But anyways, we can only go around and around on this issue since it's very much opinion based. We shall see what the stats say at the end. Edited by berbers
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It really boils down to perception, because in my mind a good ally would have worked with you to maximize the damage to the enemy and minimize it to the coalition. My perception based on experience is that this is not how Umbrella does business. For example, if Umb had a CB against SPaTR, I highly doubt they would have thrown themselves at those monsters without asking everyone to go along for the ride.

But anyways, we can only go around and around on this issue since it's very much opinion based. We shall see what the stats say at the end.

 

I ll be honest .. Umbrella has been nothing but great Allies along with the rest of our allies with nothing but respect .   End of Story 

Edited by brucemania
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It really boils down to perception, because in my mind a good ally would have worked with you to maximize the damage to the enemy and minimize it to the coalition. My perception based on experience is that is now how Umbrella does business. For example, if Umb had a CB against SPaTR, I highly doubt they would have thrown themselves at those monsters without asking everyone to go along for the ride.

But anyways, we can only go around and around on this issue since it's very much opinion based. We shall see what the stats say at the end.

Umbrella has only been countered by one Mongols nation, how much damage they take will largely depend on how much focus they get from your side. If Cuba declared on Umbrella's top tier in response to their invovlement, that would be bad news for them & its outside of their control. So even if its in their nature to try coming out ahead in stats, as long as they are assisting the war effort I doubt their side is going to be worrying about who's comparatively taking more damage. So its kind of a pointless argument, its not like Sengoku is going to complain to Umbrella they're not taking enough damage.

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The unsung hero in all this is Argent, who have stepped in with offers for rebuilding aid before the first round of wars are even over.

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