Popping some Roids

[James Spanier]

From what I heard, there are no MI def. slots open.

 

There are 31 from my count a few minutes ago.

[Tevron]

 

There are 31 from my count a few minutes ago.

A whole ton of them opened up today...

 

but ITT people complaining about a legitimate CB, people complaining we didn't war MI enough already, and people complaining about the people complaining.

[Hombre Sabio]

Thank you Atlas may I have another?

[Unknown Smurf]

All irrelivant and an attempt to obscure the issue.  Their intentions or feelings arent what matters here.
 
We have a series of facts.
 
Fact: Someone took screen shots of Atlas private forums and, acting as a spy passed them on to MI.
 
Fact: MI accepted the screen shots.
 
Fact: MI acceptd the person who stole them into their alliance knowing they stole them.
 
Fact: MI posted said screen shots of an alliances private forum on the OWF.
 
 
Are you complaining MI is so incompetent they didn't realize the above would get a response or be a CB?  I think there are very few alliances who wouldnt go to war with them in these circumstances.  And what hardin was or was not thinking has nothing to do with the poor hcoices MI made.
 
Instead of doubling down with the arogance and spin, MI... and anyone who likes them.... would do a lot better to man up and admit they screwed up. 

First and foremost I will agree with you LH screwed up. Hitting an entire war weary AA is overkill for the situation at hand though.

Those bolded facts are simply not true. In order:

Fact: Hardin left Atlas and joined MInc.

Fact: He told LH that Atlas was going to declare

Fact: LH asked if he had any proof and hardin provided those screenshots because atlas didn't change his mask (and for the record the screenshots are from a Gen membership thread, not a gov forum as people have been saying)

Then your final fact.

I'll give you some other facts:

Fact: Atlas did not approach MInc for an explanation

Fact: Atlas decided to declare on the alliance as a whole instead of the guilty parties.

 
That's all that needed to be said Sigrun, nobody expected you to look at this and accept that MInc was actually at fault as it was clear that you'd unconditionally throw your pseudo-factology of opinions around like candy. The CB is solid no matter how you cut it because MInc is protecting someone who released private Atlas information. Atlas has every right to them the same as everyone would. The type of situation here is the same as a tech scammer, war deserter, or rogue. You don't protect these kinds of people unless you're fully prepared to back it up militarily. You and Smurf have a whopping two options: activate defense clauses or don't. Nobody here is going to look at your attempts to pass off another MInc blunder as something innocent. They do these things on purpose and they don't hide it, why do you try to?

Is MINC protecting that guy? Atlas could have requested to kick him out if they so chose to. But they didnt. They saw a way to win a war on the backs of TSOs (and doom squads) allies and circumvented CN norms Edited May 29, 2015 by Unknown Smurf

[keeology]

First and foremost I will agree with you LH screwed up. Hitting an entire war weary AA is overkill for the situation at hand though.

Those bolded facts are simply not true. In order:

Fact: Hardin left Atlas and joined MInc.

Fact: He told LH that Atlas was going to declare

Fact: LH asked if he had any proof and hardin provided those screenshots because atlas didn't change his mask (and for the record the screenshots are from a Gen membership thread, not a gov forum as people have been saying)

Then your final fact.

I'll give you some other facts:

Fact: Atlas did not approach MInc for an explanation

Fact: Atlas decided to declare on the alliance as a whole instead of the guilty parties.





Is MINC protecting that guy? Atlas could have requested to kick him out if they so chose to. But they didnt. They saw a way to win a war on the backs of TSOs (and doom squads) allies and circumvented CN norms

Key thing Smurf is the screen shots got posted to the OWF. That's the CB, a rock solid one. But this doesn't happen if L_H doesnt post them.

[James Spanier]

He was masked as a full member and MInc posted the screenshots, I think MInc has made their position clear. That said, I agree, Atlas should have at least attempted diplomacy first.

[Scourge]

He was masked as a full member and MInc posted the screenshots, I think MInc has made their position clear. That said, I agree, Atlas should have at least attempted diplomacy first.

Gunboat diplomacy is still diplomacy.

[Unknown Smurf]

Key thing Smurf is the screen shots got posted to the OWF. That's the CB, a rock solid one. But this doesn't happen if L_H doesnt post them.

That is true, which is why my first line was that LH screwed up.

My point is should the rest of MInc be rolled for the actions of two people?

[James Spanier]

Gunboat diplomacy is still diplomacy.

 

Gunboat diplomacy is still diplomacy done before war is declared. You threaten war to attempt to get the results you want.

[James Spanier]

That is true, which is why my first line was that LH screwed up.

My point is should the rest of MInc be rolled for the actions of two people?

 

The leader they democratically elected? That said I know this position you're in US, I was allied to AcTi when they got hit all three times.

[Unknown Smurf]

He was masked as a full member and MInc posted the screenshots, I think MInc has made their position clear. That said, I agree, Atlas should have at least attempted diplomacy first.

He was masked as a full member because he applied.

MInc putting him as a full member wasn't them making a statement in this scenario because Atlas never made them aware that this was a scenario!

[Tevron]

Smurf, you're missing the point. He posted them on the OWF, saying "Meanwhile in Atlas" in a mocking tone and revealing private information of Atlas's to the whole of Planet Bob. Alexio already ran through the situation exclusively 

I don't understand why this is hard to fathom, but a leader should be expected to act more responsibly. I'm surprised your alliance (as a protectorate) did not flat out condone that kind of behavior as it was frankly an embarrassment. Hitchcock has obviously proven himself unapologetic in this thread and you miss the point - He should have been the one approaching Atlas. To apologize. Rather, he should not have even done it in the first place because it is an act of war.

 

This war is a war strictly of HItchcock's creation, because of his lack of a level head as a leader. If he didn't see this coming when several days had passed, then that's on him. If someone engages in an act of aggression, and does not retract that aggression - that is a diplomatic statement. Our diplomatic response to their apathy in addition to their initial acts of aggression is war, which should not be a surprise.

 

[James Spanier]

He was masked as a full member because he applied.

MInc putting him as a full member wasn't them making a statement in this scenario because Atlas never made them aware that this was a scenario!

 

Oh come now, you seriously don't believe that? MInc had no idea that accepting screen shots, giving membership to the person that gave said screenshots, and publicly posting said screenshots could provoke a war? I mean, I agree MInc isn't the most intelligent alliance around, but I didn't expect YOU of all people to accuse them of such unintelligent actions.

[Unknown Smurf]

I see your points and I think you see mine. I'll bow out of the topic here.

Just poorly handled by all parties involved.

Edit: seems you've posted in the time it's taken me to post mine.

 
Oh come now, you seriously don't believe that? MInc had no idea that accepting screen shots, giving membership to the person that gave said screenshots, and publicly posting said screenshots could provoke a war? I mean, I agree MInc isn't the most intelligent alliance around, but I didn't expect YOU of all people to accuse them of such unintelligent actions.

Those screenshots were all over IRC and I'm sure they didn't think it was a big deal as logs/screenies are posted regularly during wartime.

And I call them stupid on the daily. I do support them however as they do learn from their mistakes and they are one of the handful of alliances that are different in this day and age. Edited May 29, 2015 by Unknown Smurf

[James Spanier]

I see your points and I think you see mine. I'll bow out of the topic here.

Just poorly handled by all parties involved.

Edit: seems you've posted in the time it's taken me to post mine.

Those screenshots were all over IRC and I'm sure they didn't think it was a big deal as logs/screenies are posted regularly during wartime.

And I call them stupid on the daily. I do support them however as they do learn from their mistakes and they are one of the handful of alliances that are different in this day and age.

 

I was wondering why you hadn't replied, I was going to suggest resyncing anyway.

 

As for your reply, so the screenshots were on IRC (I didn't see them, but I'm not everywhere). Why did they accept the member and make sure Atlas was inflamed by using the screenshots they got? They very well knew who leaked them, and they accepted them. It doesn't matter who had the screenshots when, they should have known better.

 

MInc doesn't seem to have learned anything, considering this is the fourth of fifth blunder in two months. They're not "new and different", plenty of alliances do this sort of thing. The only different part is that Kaskus asserts protection, whereas other alliances that relentlessly screw up are dropped by legitimate alliances and are usually raided away into obscurity.

[Unknown Smurf]

 
I was wondering why you hadn't replied, I was going to suggest resyncing anyway.
 
As for your reply, so the screenshots were on IRC (I didn't see them, but I'm not everywhere). Why did they accept the member and make sure Atlas was inflamed by using the screenshots they got? They very well knew who leaked them, and they accepted them. It doesn't matter who had the screenshots when, they should have known better.
 
MInc doesn't seem to have learned anything, considering this is the fourth of fifth blunder in two months. They're not "new and different", plenty of alliances do this sort of thing. The only different part is that Kaskus asserts protection, whereas other alliances that relentlessly screw up are dropped by legitimate alliances and are usually raided away into obscurity.

I have nothing beyond that they did not believe this was an issue because atlas didn't give them reason to believe they were that miffed.

I know what youre gonna say: they should *know* better.. but take a gander at world affairs. There's many leaked screenshots that never have repercussions. Not saying that makes it right but it justifies MInc being oblivious to atlas' war preperation considering no contact from Atlas

[James Spanier]

I have nothing beyond that they did not believe this was an issue because atlas didn't give them reason to believe they were that miffed.

I know what youre gonna say: they should *know* better.. but take a gander at world affairs. There's many leaked screenshots that never have repercussions. Not saying that makes it right but it justifies MInc being oblivious to atlas' war preperation considering no contact from Atlas

 

It does not happen because the side taking offense doesn't want to. Normally it's resolved in one of two ways: diplomacy (which we already established should have been the due course if only to spare us this debate as a whole) and failing that there's not a military ability to "do something about it". Atlas wagered they could do something about it because they did, diplomacy or no. Keep in mind, while we discussed the lack of normal diplomatic avenues, there has always been a risk, you know that, so yes, they should have known it too. And the point I'm making is that MInc did know it, and disregarded it. As you said, they're "new and different", and this is the exact kind of new different-ness that they've been going for. Rejecting sense and hoping they get a pushover.

 

Edit: removed an extra word. Also fixed other things. What was I doing when I typed this?

Edited May 30, 2015 by James Spanier

[kingzog]

Your sixth point referring to my post on opportunism clearly was. If you're gonna play dumb, do it better.

I'm going to let you in on a little secret. You've been on ignore for months because, based on your inability to reason your way out of a paper bag, I find you to be unbelievably stupid.

I saw what you said because someone else quoted it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, "Don't flatter yourself." Edited May 30, 2015 by kingzog

[Unknown Smurf]

I'm going to let you in on a little secret. You've been on ignore for months because, based on your inability to reason your way out of a paper bag, I find you to be unbelievably stupid.

I saw what you said because someone else quoted it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, "Don't flatter yourself."

Considering you were the first to quote my post ITT determined that was a lie.

[Elite Virgin]

You have Facebook messages, you might want to delete it.

[kingzog]

Considering you were the first to quote my post ITT determined that was a lie.

 

First, let me just say that I appreciate the MASSIVE man-crush you have on me. But while I appreciate it, I'm generally not attracted to the mentally challenged.

 

When I say 'I saw what you said' I was referencing your 'zinger' comment. A quick read and a third-grade level of comprehension should confirm this.

 

Now, let's be clear: are you on ignore? Oh yes, absolutely. You pissed me off a few months back with one post in particular, and that was the last straw. And so now I get to read about 20% of your posts instead of having to wade through your inane nonsense. It isn't my fault that the one I picked happen to represent something of a pinnacle of your endless stream of foolishness. You should be honored, though. I read even fewer of Tywin's.

 

Now back you go to a special place where you can talk all to yourself. Both you and Sigrun, btw. (And about twenty other folks, only one one of whom, unfortunately, has been permanently banished. Hmmm. I guess I can remove him. Meh. Nahhhhh.)

[jraenar]

 

The leader they democratically elected? That said I know this position you're in US, I was allied to AcTi when they got hit all three times.

 

Oh man. Those were good times, rolling AcTi.

[Mogar]

Triple Breakoff Flank attacks!

[Sir Kiloist]

What I'm gathering itt: 

 

1) CN bitches when there is no CB, then when a CB is valid...they bitch it isn't valid (then bitch there are no wars when this happens and nothing is done)

2) Smurf wants to enter but isn't quite sure he should so he is posting on the owf (let's be honest with ourselves Smurf)

3) No slot coverage ("come at me bro" chants being used) despite there not being a lot of slots originally and Atlas I'm pretty sure limited what nations went into war

4) Atlas needs someone like me to post threads because none of my posts/threads are taken seriously thus are ignored

5) President Hardin never let Atlas know he was leaving then gave screenshots of a forum to MInc thus betraying an alliance he was a founder in (yeah that hasn't been pointed out yet has it? the more you know right?)

6) Kiloist still needs casualties to reach one million :/

7) CN politics are a joke - "Hey, we have a valid CB for posting private member discussions on the owf" *declares war* response --> "Hey!!! You can't do that! It's not valid because you didn't ask MInc if it was okay to go to war!!"

8) I saw this one somewhere else in this thread "Could have hit them when other alliances weren't hitting them" - whoever said that, you must not be familiar with wars on Bob alliances tend to hit each other despite being engaged elsewhere.

 

Of course, I could be wrong about all of this because "lolKiloist thinks he understands things"

[Rush Sykes]

He was masked as a full member and MInc posted the screenshots, I think MInc has made their position clear. That said, I agree, Atlas should have at least attempted diplomacy first.

 

I was in full-on agreement with you up until this sentence. On everything you said in every thread related to this situation. Some alliances deserve the diplomatic discourse, they have earned that standing through past diploacy and interactions. MInc, at every fire point in their history have been irrational. They define themselves, for lack of a better phrase, as rule breakers, and they wear the label proudly. They make it even more clear that this is how they can and will continue to engage on Planet Bob. Hence, diplomatic effort wasted by others, paved the road to exclude them from the right to diplomatic discourse.