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To My Dearest Lord Caparo


vandelsand
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Dear Lord Caparo of Caparo T1,

Sanctioning you was a mistake that I am sorry for. I wish it had never been done.

I will only sanction ghosts, rogues, and those who have committed war crimes or severe treason against me or my alliance in the future.

Vandelsand
Elder Senator, TSO

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#notbuyingit

 

Why not? He seems reasonably sincere to me.

 

I'm really curious what war crimes consists of.

 

Any chance to get a breakdown?

 

I know you're trying to be funny (and I laughed) but perhaps one day we could all have a big conference and figure it out. Hah. Not likely.

 

More likely it will go like everything else in CN. Several different interpretations will exist in varying degrees of tension and once in a-great-while a war will be fought over the differences.

 

Beats growing moss.

Edited by Sigrun Vapneir
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I definitely agree with Sigrun, there should be a standard as to how a senator should use sanctions. There are no guides for new senators, or even senators with 5 months under their belts like me.

I hope Caparo finds my apology to be sincere! I don't post much, so it would be a waste of time if it isn't taken sincerely.

I will see everyone at the battlements!

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I know you're trying to be funny (and I laughed) but perhaps one day we could all have a big conference and figure it out. Hah. Not likely.

 

More likely it will go like everything else in CN. Several different interpretations will exist in varying degrees of tension and once in a-great-while a war will be fought over the differences.

 

Beats growing moss.

 

I was serious.

 

So far we have seen spy gov and spy irs ops by Monsters Inc, so I assume those aren't?  TSO has exposed Assassinate Generals run by them, so I would guess that is fair game also?  In which case, what is left as a war crime?

 

I get the treachery reason which was held separate, but honestly, is there some military action that does qualify as it seemed to suggest, and if so what?

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Oh brother.  Is this part of some stupid terms for peace?  Gotta think so.  TSO gets "raided" then has to apolgize for using every means necessary to hit back.  Laughable.  The whole damned thing is laughable.  I would tell you to kick him in the balls, but he is hiding in hippy mode.  Again, the whole episode is a joke and capitulating to worthless trolls that call themselves alliances is stupid.

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I definitely agree with Sigrun, there should be a standard as to how a senator should use sanctions. There are no guides for new senators, or even senators with 5 months under their belts like me.

I hope Caparo finds my apology to be sincere! I don't post much, so it would be a waste of time if it isn't taken sincerely.

I will see everyone at the battlements!

There aren't standards, just unwritten expectations. As a senator, it's expected that you know enough about the community to recognize them. Breaking them is possible, it just means a dozen cyberlawyers come out to argue the pros and cons of it happening.

 

You're advised to find a more senior senator (esp. on your team or among your allies) to find out what these unwritten expectations are. As a senator, you're expected to be knowledgeable enough that "I'm new" isn't an excuse.

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I was serious.

 

So far we have seen spy gov and spy irs ops by Monsters Inc, so I assume those aren't?  TSO has exposed Assassinate Generals run by them, so I would guess that is fair game also?  In which case, what is left as a war crime?

 

I get the treachery reason which was held separate, but honestly, is there some military action that does qualify as it seemed to suggest, and if so what?

 

As you are serious I will offer another answer, although of course I am not Vandelsand and do not speak for him.

 

I could generate a wall of text based on applying some otherworldly precedents I once found appropriate, but 1) no one would actually read it and 2) I dont really think it's all appropriate here anymore myself.

 

But basically I would consider a handful of things warcrimes still. Top of the list is an unwarranted sanction. A single senator with a single thoughtless click of the button can easily screw around a dozen nations, and likely only one of them would he even stand a chance of recognizing the name of the nation he screwed. It's a terribly sweeping power and I honestly believe that discouraging its use in general is a broad community interest - something that really serves every single one of us more than it hurts, even for the senators themselves.  And that is not something I invented, it's a more that was pretty strong in 2007 when I started, I am only trying conservatively to preserve something I believe has broad value and is in danger from general disregard.

 

Beyond that, we have EZI/PZI practices.  There are some fine lines and some great arguments to have down the road on the details, but I think (hope!) that we can basically all agree that no matter how bad a ruler screws up we will not completely genocide their nation. If quarter (surrender) is requested by a nation that truly lacks the means to continue the fight, it should be granted, and perhaps refusing to do so would be a war crime.

 

I used to have a much longer list, and given time I will probably remember another item or two, but it's very late in my day right now and that should give you an idea at least of how I would interpret the phrase.

 

 

Oh brother.  Is this part of some stupid terms for peace?  Gotta think so.  TSO gets "raided" then has to apolgize for using every means necessary to hit back.  Laughable.  The whole damned thing is laughable.  I would tell you to kick him in the balls, but he is hiding in hippy mode.  Again, the whole episode is a joke and capitulating to worthless trolls that call themselves alliances is stupid.

 

Not precisely, no. It does appear to be modeled on a response I gave them when asked what I would require for peace, and had they posted this first, instead of nuking first and coming here later, I probably would have been forced by my own words to peace them out for it. (As an e-lawyer I am of course my own worst antagonist.)

 

But I believe it is actually a sincere statement. I am taking it as such and urging all our allies to proceed down the peace talk path without delay as a result.

Edited by Sigrun Vapneir
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What exactly is the purpose this thread is meant to serve, Vandelsand? I'm seeing all this talk over various things that I don't see mentioned in the OP.

I think the point of the OP is he's saying he realizes he made a mistake and will try to do better in the future. I think that is worth something.
 

I definitely agree with Sigrun, there should be a standard as to how a senator should use sanctions. There are no guides for new senators, or even senators with 5 months under their belts like me.

I hope Caparo finds my apology to be sincere! I don't post much, so it would be a waste of time if it isn't taken sincerely.

I will see everyone at the battlements!

Best guidelines I can give you is to just not hit that sanction button when someone asks you to. If someone really deserves to be sanctioned, which in most cases they don't, let someone else be the one to do it. It takes guts to admit when you were wrong, so good luck with the apology. Edited by Methrage
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What is next?  We go back to declaring people who use nukes in a war as rogues?  Sanctions used in war is a boat that sailed long ago along with having a CB or honoring treaties.  Anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot.  This is the world we live in.  Dry your tears and move on.  Besides we all know the latest fad is protectors running away from protecting their protectorates.    

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What is next?  We go back to declaring people who use nukes in a war as rogues?  Sanctions used in war is a boat that sailed long ago along with having a CB or honoring treaties.  Anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot.  This is the world we live in.  Dry your tears and move on.  Besides we all know the latest fad is protectors running away from protecting their protectorates.    

True story.

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Oh brother.  Is this part of some stupid terms for peace?  Gotta think so.  TSO gets "raided" then has to apolgize for using every means necessary to hit back.  Laughable.  The whole damned thing is laughable.  I would tell you to kick him in the balls, but he is hiding in hippy mode.  Again, the whole episode is a joke and capitulating to worthless trolls that call themselves alliances is stupid.

This isn't peace we are apologizing for sanctioning him simple as that and I assure you the war is still on 

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They violated your alliances sovereignty, that in itself is a war crime. You should never have to apologize with defending your right to exist (by all means) without provocation. Sanctions are just another tool in your arsenal, and if you're not willing to use them vote for a senator that will use it's power to defend the right of your nations against aggressors. 

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If every war boiled down to sanctions being used as simple weapon of war, then every war would have a large destabilizing effect on the colors involved. I moved off Pink when several members of my trade circle in SWF got sanctioned for being on the wrong side of the war as those who held the senate seats, so did a lot of other alliances and individuals who were on Pink after that.

Senators should use their seat for the wellbeing of their color sphere, not personal gain and screwing over their temporary rivals in war at the expense of hurting the team they're suppose to represent. I respect TSO recognized their error here and plan to fight an honorable war from here on out. What I find surprising is how many are speaking out in favor of senators using their seat to benefit themselves at the expense of the stability and freedom of their color to trade openly with other nations. Sides are always switching from war to war, based on where treaties pull people, everyone shouldn't need to keep moving color spheres whenever someone in their trade circle happens to end up on the other side of the war as some of the senators. That's ridiculous and I'm surprised how many are speaking out like that should be the norm.

I won't accept that as the "norm" just because some alliances have abused their seats in the past, this is why I run for the senate. To make a positive impact on my color sphere at least, where everyone isn't suddenly restricted on who they can trade and associate with based on the whims on some senators who don't care about the stability and wellbeing of their color sphere. I want Senators who promote freedom and don't abuse their seat for tyranny.

Edited by Methrage
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I won't accept that as the "norm" just because some alliances have abused their seats in the past, this is why I run for the senate. To make a positive impact on my color sphere at least, where everyone isn't suddenly restricted on who they can trade and associate with based on the whims on some senators who don't care about the stability and wellbeing of their color sphere. I want Senators who promote freedom and don't abuse their seat for tyranny.


So you go about that by calling in favors to avoid having to gain the respect of BC? You're circumventing the group in Brown that is designed to do exactly what you preach.
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So you go about that by calling in favors to avoid having to gain the respect of BC? You're circumventing the group in Brown that is designed to do exactly what you preach.

I respect most within BC, but you guys encouraged me to earn my seat without BC supporting me, rather than seek it. Also SNX encouraged our move to brown and welcomed my run on brown when I was switching from Pink, I'm just surprised you guys didn't show any support when I tried cooperating with BC to get a seat, despite SNX being so outspoken in favor of our move to brown and supporting me running for the senate when the decision was made to go to the brown sphere. Talk to your former President about the discussions which were had if you weren't around back then.
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I respect most within BC, but you guys encouraged me to earn my seat without BC supporting me, rather than seek it. Also SNX encouraged our move to brown and welcomed my run on brown when I was switching from Pink, I'm just surprised you guys didn't show any support when I tried cooperating with BC to get a seat, despite SNX being so outspoken in favor of our move to brown and supporting me running for the senate when the decision was made to go to the brown sphere. Talk to your former President about the discussions which were had if you weren't around back then.


Let go of the past. We do not support your claim on Brown. We haven't since you came asking for our help. Your love for rogues makes you potentially toxic to our sphere. I said earn your seat, not call in favors. You didn't earn it.
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