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Schattenmann

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You know what else shouldn't be ok? Hear me out now guys, organized attacks against independent alliances without any provocation. Yet, you support it, because it's your friends, and are attempting to create this world in which DBDC and by de facto ODN is defending themselves against WTF, and not merely that DBDC bought off more than they can deal with alone and you wish to intervene if they don't let your DBDC member off the hook scot free.

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You know what else shouldn't be ok? Hear me out now guys, organized attacks against independent alliances without any provocation. Yet, you support it, because it's your friends, and are attempting to create this world in which DBDC and by de facto ODN is defending themselves against WTF, and not merely that DBDC bought off more than they can deal with alone and you wish to intervene if they don't let your DBDC member off the hook scot free.

 

As always Mogar speaks the truth and makes some great points!

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Its in the same embassy thread Schatt quoted CT.

 

 

And Mogar.  I actually agree with you.  You have a problem with how ODN does things, come at us.  We'll try to beat you down.  You try to beat us down.  We see who wins and then we move on.

 

 

This world would be  a lot better imo, if people fought wars for whatever reasons they wanted.  And then when it was settled shook hands and moved on.

 

 

 

 

And hey.  Being serious.  If you think DBDCs actions are wrong thats OK.  You can try to stop them.  But to start doing other wrong actions to do it, that's a mistake.  Even if you felt DBDC were evil (I think them in the right herE) I would remind you:

 

“Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.”

 

I don't actually think DBDC has done anything wrong.  But ive no issue with those that do fighting DBDC and trying to stop them.  You should do so if you feel they are in the wrong.  And if I think them right, I will try to stop you.  We see who wins and that's war.

 

 But if you start using your views of DBDC as "evil" as justification to comit actions you would have a problem with them doing to you... then you've screwed up.  And you deserve those very actions to be committed on YOUR nations. And you lose the right to complain when I start forcing XX nations to disband.

 

Period.  However you justify or spin it.

 

And I somehow feel certain there would be very few here who were OK if what WTF is demanding of DBDC nations tyring to surrender was done to any other alliance by DBDC.

 

 

 

That said, I feel i've made my point.  Gotten it across. And we are now going in circles.  So i'll take my leave. 

Edited by OsRavan

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By accepting CT, WTF deserves everything that is coming their way.

 

Speaking of which, I can't help but notice that a WTF nation has declared war on one of our allies.

 

Merely pointing this out as an academic exercise, since people are so easily spooked by talks of allies and war.

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Cool story, bro.  Check the dates/times of when Christian Trojan became a WTF member and the time of his entry into the war with his war dec on Cuba.

 

I'm sure DBDC appreciates what amounts to a minimal offer of help though.

Attacking your own AA, especially in the middle of a war, makes you a rogue and traitor. Based on CT's seniority and the length of the war, CT defected AFTER war was declared. Since it seems that CT has been involved in war planning (based on logs), that means that he went through the whole war planning process before deciding to jump. He had lots of time to leave/make his concerns known before the war happened. Staying on the AA meant that his brothers counted on him to show up. He didn't. In fact, he stabbed them in the back. Something I expect Valhalla to sympathize with.

 

Non Grata has been helping DBDC with a rogue, much like we helped Doomsquad with Rotavele. At that time, it was DBDC who white knighted Rotavele. WTF has instead chosen to defend a rogue through force.

Edited by Duderonomy

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Its in the same embassy thread Schatt quoted CT.

 

 

And Mogar.  I actually agree with you.  You have a problem with how ODN does things, come at us.  We'll try to beat you down.  You try to beat us down.  We see who wins and then we move on.

 

 

This world would be  a lot better imo, if people fought wars for whatever reasons they wanted.  And then when it was settled shook hands and moved on.

 

 

 

 

And hey.  Being serious.  If you think DBDCs actions are wrong thats OK.  You can try to stop them.  But to start doing other wrong actions to do it, that's a mistake.  Even if you felt DBDC were evil (I think them in the right herE) I would remind you:

 

“Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.”

 

I don't actually think DBDC has done anything wrong.  But ive no issue with those that do fighting DBDC and trying to stop them.  You should do so if you feel they are in the wrong.  And if I think them right, I will try to stop you.  We see who wins and that's war.

 

 But if you start using your views of DBDC as "evil" as justification to comit actions you would have a problem with them doing to you... then you've screwed up.  And you deserve those very actions to be committed on YOUR nations. And you lose the right to complain when I start forcing XX nations to disband.

 

Period.  However you justify or spin it.

 

And I somehow feel certain there would be very few here who were OK if what WTF is demanding of DBDC nations tyring to surrender was done to any other alliance by DBDC.

 

 

 

That said, I feel i've made my point.  Gotten it across. And we are now going in circles.  So i'll take my leave. 

At least you can admit you intend on attacking a neutral alliance for defending themselves and actually inflicting harm upon those who attacked them, that's exactly the sound byte I was looking for, thanks for playing!
 

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I'm talking about WTF is doing to individual nations trying to surrender.  Not to DBDC the alliance.


Do you blame them? DBDC members are notorious at moving to different alliances, if their actions are making those wishing to surrender lives difficult then you should advise them to drop that tactic.

Blame the action and not the reaction.

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OsRavan,

 

The only figures that have been mentioned in the forum thread you speak of were random members including myself just throwing numbers around.

 

Also,

 

I do not understand how you can not see that what DBDC has done is wrong. When did it become OK for a peaceful AA that is no threat to anyone to be attacked? Please explain OsRaven?

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It's an unfortunate hazard of the medium that some things must be left on the cutting room floor. 

WTF's particular grievances and the course of action based on them are well reasoned, but would be difficult to discuss here. 

 

At the same time, it's impossible to expect WTF to accommodate 500 diplos, so this will do for the vast majority (as Grub pointed out). 

As one of the 1000 enforcers, I think it's wise for you to check it out now that the check has been written. 

Kudos sir. Fine work, well executed. :popcorn:

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Oh boy, oƃ ǝʍ ǝɹǝɥ

The thing with the OWF,  as all should know if they aren't being political hacks,
Is that its just propoganda and selective reasoning.

Foreshadowing
 

For example, if I wanted to go through the same thread, I could find examples of WTF ... That they will perform eternal war on people (they may not use the words eternal war, but when you say that nations won't be allowed to surrender for the forseeable future.. thats eternal war by another name). etc. Not the alliance. Individual nations surrendering.

No, it absolutely is not even close to being eternal war.
Noob Cake has joined DBDC for a long time, we know how DBDC operates, he knows how DBDC operates. DBDC has made it very clear they do not operate in the same paradigm that we do, and part of that is the rejection of the traditional (since you're suddenly interested in customs) bounds of alliance affiliation. Noob Cake is not trying to surrender, he is trying to leave this war, restock, and begin raiding the upper tier with impunity again. This very nation in particular as a member of DBDC has already done this over and over. He is not a victim, he is following SOP right now.  

 

TBRaiders01_zpsy218q3h3.jpg
 
DBDC's AA-switching is designed to cause this exact situation, to create a backdoor to escalating any raid gone bad into a full-scale war with multiple alliances rather than just DBDC.  And whaddayaknow, here comes ODN doing exactly what they're supposed to do, cognizant or unwitting, a pawn either way. 

 

And somehow, I suspect if DBDC  were making the same comments about individual nations  that WTF is, the Outrage Machine we see in this thread would have been rending their clothes at the inhumanity and the evilness of DBDC.
 
But since politicaly people are sympathetic to WTF, we politely look the other way.

I don't disagree with your assertion about the reaction if the situation were reversed, but your reasoning is a joke.
DBDC is the aggressive party here, there is no moral equivalency to be made by switching the parties. If DBDC refused to let a WTF member surrender, they would be holding that nation in an indefinite state of war that DBDC started, you moron.
 
 

And the irony is that division on this issue will once again simply be along poliical lines.

It's true; allies of DBDC turn a blind eye to this sort of thing, or jump to support it like ODN. 
 
 

Since when is "need to remove their ability to fight/be competent" accepted as a justifcation for harsh reps?

Said the man who went to war against NPO et. al. on a CB of "need to remove their ability to fight."
Seriously, OsRavan, when are you going to learn that we know who you are? Why would it be a valid CB but not a valid reason to deny peace? And in the wars you declared on nothing but "need to remove their ability to fight" you, you personally, stood by reps totaling $1 Billion.
 

If DBDC decided they needed to remove WTF's threat

That's what they've done.
 

What you are REALLY saying Mogar, is "I don't like DBDC, so its OK to do to them what I would not be ok with any other alliance doing to me."

A cheat always feels he is being cheated, a crook always feels others are robbing him.
OsRavan today, and ODN in its threats against WTF and lies about its character, represent the height of Orwellian doublespeak, and so OsRavan accuses every genuine person around him of also being a fork-tongued murderer. He is backwards.

Edited by Schattenmann

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You keep talking about how evil it is to not allow individual nations to surrender, yet it appears that no individual nations have been prevented from surrendering.

 

Correct me if I am wrong here, please.

 

 

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You keep talking about how evil it is to not allow individual nations to surrender, yet it appears that no individual nations have been prevented from surrendering.
 
Correct me if I am wrong here, please.

In cars, they call this spinning the tires, Os began spinning the party line before it was actually the story line they would go with to escalate the situation.

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At least you can admit you intend on attacking a neutral alliance for defending themselves and actually inflicting harm upon those who attacked them, that's exactly the sound byte I was looking for, thanks for playing!
 

 

Umm.. huh?  Mind you im actually all for attacking neutral alliances.  But I dont think I actually said anyhing of the sort lol.  But what the hey.

 

 

 

OsRavan,

 

The only figures that have been mentioned in the forum thread you speak of were random members including myself just throwing numbers around.

 

Also,

 

I do not understand how you can not see that what DBDC has done is wrong. When did it become OK for a peaceful AA that is no threat to anyone to be attacked? Please explain OsRaven?

 

 

Im speaking purely personally here.  But i've long felt that there is no bad reason to start a war.  Ive not seen a good CB in CN since i've been here.   In my book go to war with whoever you want for whatever reason.   All reasons are subjective anyway.   Don't like an alliance?  Go to war with them.  Dislike their posting style?  Go to war if you want.

 

In my book,  you get more kudos for just going to war cause you dislike someone then you do for building some trumped up fake CB alla say disorder war (or dave war to put the shoe on the other foot).

 

 

The key for me isnt what you start the war over, its how you wage it and how you end it.    Thats just my personal stance.  If people want to war WTF or DBDC.... or ODN... go for it. But if you start leveling huge reps, torturing nations that try to surrender, etc.  Thats a no no.

 

 

It feeds into what I said before. Everyone always thinks they are the good guys.  To try and justify poor actions based on that is ridiculous.   Half the world in any war will think you started it for bad or good reasons.  Better to focus on the specific action.  Is it or is it not OK to refuse reasonable surrender terms to individual alliances?

 

 

And Sigrun... that has happened, yes.  Its what started this whole conversation with WTF.

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What determines a reasonable time for a nation of that capability? who are you to judge the damage inflicted as enough, as an uninvolved party? Your only desire here is to prevent lasting damage to DBDC, which, while it makes perfect sense to want that as a lackey to DBDC, does not really impact WTF's opinion whatsoever.

 

You make a claim to want honorable warfare, and yet are saying you will attack an independent alliance for defending themselves against a tech raid, of which WTF did not ask for, or provoke in any manner. Contemplate that, and then ask yourself how you are still attempting to make that claim.

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Well no one has come to WTF to ask to surrender i can assure you that.

 

If you are referring to nations like noob cake who run off to other aa's who then get attacked, i can assure you they did not surrender. They are just trying to hide so they can collect taxes and re buy nukes to then return to DBDC and fight again.

 

Like i said personally i would allow DBDC members to surrender with conditions which would include the condition that a top 10 DBDC nation would also have to be sacrificed and surrender along with the smaller DBDC member. Just my humble and personal opinion.

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And Sigrun... that has happened, yes.  Its what started this whole conversation with WTF.

 

 

Which nation?

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Which nation?

 

Noob cake has not made a legit effort to surrender. He is just trying to hide to collect and re buy nukes etc

Edited by christian trojans

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Which nation?

Evidently Noob Cake just genuinely wishes to be an ODN member, for real guys, he'll totally even stay for his full 60 day probationary period, and not just reload nukes and resume tech raiding.

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And Sigrun... that has happened, yes.  Its what started this whole conversation with WTF.

UM, NOT.

 

if Noob was so interested in surrendering, why is he still attempting to lob nukes at me every day ? 

 

we have heard zippo from him about surrendering, just him running around to various alliances, from DBDC to SPATR to Green Credit Peace Organization and now ODN, trying to escape the consequences of his ill-considered actions. he made his bed, and now he gets to eat my nukes until my silos can lob no more. 

Edited by senatorhung

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Look WTF, it's simple, you either let him go scot free, or ODN rolls you, I dunno what's so hard to read on your forums.

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OsRaven,

 

Seriously stop being ridiculous man. You know that WTF are only doing what they think is right.

 

DBDC started this war with an alliance who never wanted a fight. And now WTF has the right to defend itself until its war chests run out if it really wants too. And WTF have extremely deep pockets.

 

I know 100% that WTF will absolutely not break or even bend to threats. So... everyone just needs to let the DBDC AA have its 1v1 fight with WTF. Get out the popcorn and beers and enjoy.

 

The day that innocent aa's cant defend their selves will be a sad day.

 

Stop ruining your rep for the sake of DBDC they dont give a crap about you trust me.

Edited by christian trojans

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Look WTF, it's simple, you either let him go scot free, or ODN rolls you, I dunno what's so hard to read on your forums.

 

:)

 

As i have said many times i don't speak for WTF i speak for myself. But i certainly encourage all WTF nations to attack DBDC deserters who try to hide in other AA's. I don't care what AA is it.

 

TBH no honourable AA would have him anyway.

Edited by christian trojans

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Their reasonable out is providing restitution as an atonement for their actions, something I see as a fitting demand.


Reasonable is not the same as enforceable, sides aside (eh eh).

I'm all for an escalation of the DBDC-WTF war and for people wasting their pixels away while I watch from the sidelines btw, so please make this happen.

As always Mogar speaks the truth and makes some great points!


Missed this, I'd say this thread can now die a peaceful death. Edited by Garion

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Look WTF, it's simple, you either let him go scot free, or ODN rolls you, I dunno what's so hard to read on your forums.

Some of us have made that decision.

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Reasonable is not the same as enforceable, sides aside (eh eh).

I'm all for an escalation of the DBDC-WTF war and for people wasting their pixels away while I watch from the sidelines btw, so please make this happen.

WTF has no reason to agree to anything but what they wish to, as the aggrieved and defensive party in the conflict, if ODN wishes to defend DBDC against the consequences of their tech raids then so be it, Last group of people who rolled a neutral seemed to have never had it come back to haunt them.

 

Some of us have made that decision.

 

If I hadn't spent my warchest over the past few months I would happily act against this injustice against independence and sovereignty..

Edited by Mogar

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