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SimCity-ation of CNRP


KaiserMelech Mikhail
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Here is a proposal that I semi-flippantly suggested in the other thread, but the more I think about it, the more I think a conversation about it could be interesting.

 

The Proposal

The proposal I am making is the dissolution of the current CNRP world map in favor of something resembling a SimCity 4 regional map.  Nations will be, to the outside eye, a series of squares next to each other.  However, inside these squares, people can do whatever they want.  Nations can be any size, any geography, any form of government, any population, any culture, and so on.  Since neighborly interactions are important in this game, squares that are next to each other will act similarly to neighboring countries, and players will work out how the geography works out for that to happen.  

 

Problems That This Fixes

1. This eliminates wars for land.  Since your country inside the square can be any size, and could theoretically grow with time (much like your CN nation), you won't have people starting out tiny and needing to invade people to grow.  This also allows for more land to be available than exists on Earth (much like CN as well, since multiple nations overlap).  Imperialist nations can grow their nation by the size of their defeated enemy, and defeated people don't have the need to necessarily reroll.  

2. This eliminates preconceived notions about what cultures exist where.  Despite the fact that for almost a year now, people have been able to RP any culture anywhere, people are still reluctant to RP cultures outside their intended areas, and may still refuse to join the game because of this (looking at you FHIC).  No more RL France, no more reason for you not to join because you can't RP the French in France.

 

How Does This Affect My Current Nation?

In theory, it shouldn't.  You can still keep your national geography, neighbors (if they want to RP next to you), cultures, characters, and all that jazz.  Elements of real-world history (I often make references to Stalin and the USSR) can reasonably be retained.  The only difference is that on the map, you're a square.

 

How Could This Make Things More Difficult?

1. This requires more work from people.  You have to go through the process of designing your nation and collaborating with neighbors to determine what type of borders you share.  New rules may also have to be established so that the custom geography aspect cannot be used to make it so every nation is surrounded by a ring of impregnable mountains.

2. Wars fought for diplomatic or ideological reasons will likely turn into wars requiring military occupations and establishing collaborationist governments rather than the demolition of nations.  While this adds a greater sense of realism to the game, it also adds more complexity to inter-player relations, which are seldom rational between people engaged in CNRP wars.

3. Merged nations need to be addressed.  Is everyone smushed into the same square, or are they several squares next to each other?  Stuff like this.

 

 

Have at it, and have a great discussion.  Mogar, nobody cares what you think about Triyun and Cent, so please don't bring it up.

Edited by KaiserMelech Mikhail
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The ability for land sizes within a square to grow or shrink affects the borders of their neighbors.

It's an interesting idea but there are a ton of problems that make it unrealistic.

Not to mention that you're proposing it to a community that couldn't agree on the color of the sky.

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The ability for land sizes within a square to grow or shrink affects the borders of their neighbors.

This would obviously we worked out between the two people. It may not affect borders if growth is imagined to occur in directions away from where you have borders, or two people may agree to grow together. This idea is very fluid.

Not to mention that you're proposing it to a community that couldn't agree on the color of the sky.

That's why we're having this discussion, to see if there is anything we can work together on.
 

Why does it have to dissolve the current world map of cnrp? Some people actually like their nations in cnrp.

Then you just carry over your nation. The current Earth-type map is dissolved because the Earth-type map really offers more problems than it's worth. CNRP already offers you the ability to RP any culture and any resources no matter where you are, so at this point, the only point of the map is to determine who your neighbors are. I know you're super psyched about being Cascadia, but there is no reason you can't make the nation inside your box a carbon copy of the Pacific Northwest. In fact, this works out especially well for you, since you don't have to worry about things like Russian Vancouver. I know I'm keeping my current setup if this goes through, so this by no means ruins what you've done so far.

And, it would make more sense if they were cities...

Yeah, I just used SimCity 4 as an example, since you can alter pretty much everything in the starting box.

I think it's a good idea, but you don't have to get rid of cnrp.

The CNRP map hasn't always been this way, so there's no reason we can't change it again. CNRP used to be about intense international and inter-character storylines, diplomacy, often fantastical environments, and just having good old fun. Now it's pretty much people sitting on the sidelines waiting until it's their turn to RP the Germans in Germany.
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Why not just remove all existing land masses, and just let people create their own little islands/continents wherever and however they want(within reason of course)?

We've already kinda did that. Custom continents are a thing in CNRP, but only one has been made and only one person RPs on it. However, I think my proposal has a few advantages over pure custom continents. First, it's easier on the mapmaker, since we're all just a bunch of squares. Most people would pretty much draw their continents in MS Paint, and then it's a nightmare of resizing, overlapping, and for the most part, the custom continents look pretty ugly.  Secondly, the box idea removes wars of land conquest where one nation is physically destroyed by the other nation.  With clear and defined continents, that possibility still remains.  

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I guess that makes sense, although it would be a pain in the ass to find out what everyone's nations look like. Maybe some kind of pinned thread where everyone posts a picture in their country in addition to the boxes in the map thread, I dunno.

 

Just out of curiosity though, why does the box idea prevent nations from being physically destroyed? I mean, if some 3k NS dude rolls a nation in a box next to me, I can attack him and (assuming I win) destroy his nation just as if he had rolled a nation right next to me on a real map, could I not?

Edited by Mr Director
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I guess that makes sense, although it would be a pain in the ass to find out what everyone's nations look like. Maybe some kind of pinned thread where everyone posts a picture in their country in addition to the boxes in the map thread, I dunno.

I was more thinking of a factbook-type system, but yeah, we'll need some way to actually find out what your nation looks like. This will have to be done almost immediately so that random mountain ranges and giant rivers don't randomly pop up in the middle of a war. I know that is more work than some people may like, which is why I listed it under one of the challenges of the new system.
 

Just out of curiosity though, why does the box idea prevent nations from being physically destroyed? I mean, if some 3k NS dude rolls a nation in a box next to me, I can attack him and (assuming I win) destroy his nation just as if he had rolled a nation right next to me on a real map, could I not?

The way I pictured it is that you wouldn't destroy his nation on the map, but you could destroy the government. Just like in a real war, you would easily brush away his military, but would have to occupy the country and force a change in the government. You would have control over the new government of the country, whether it is a military governor like 2003 Iraq where you basically boss them around for a period of time, a collaborator government like Vichy France where they maintain their own inner-workings but under your heavy boot, or it could result in a natural progression of a government that is pro-you much like the denazification efforts in 1945 Germany. Of course, they could always decide to re-roll like usual, but in the new box mode, this wouldn't be the default choice. Edited by KaiserMelech Mikhail
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But running an occupation/collaborationist govt. is already an option, isn't it? It's just that no one uses it since it's just so much easier to wipe someone off the map.

Unless you meant that there would be a rule preventing people from simply disbanding nations they defeat. In this case though, there would also need to be something in place to prevent defeated nations from saying "Oh, you can't set up collaborationist governments, cuz I get to rp all my citizens, and I say that anyone of my people you pick to be a part of the collaborationist govt. dies of a stroke."

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Also someone could horribly play the system by stating that their nation is one surrounded by lava rivers and lakes, with huge mountains with super high winds that stop aircraft and have never ending storms etc etc. The main benefit I see for having the cnrp map is that it ensures that everyone knows what the terrain is like as you compare it to earth. Allowing random terrain can allow a lot of exploitation.  

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But running an occupation/collaborationist govt. is already an option, isn't it? It's just that no one uses it since it's just so much easier to wipe someone off the map.

Right, but this would hopefully make that a more attractive option.
 

Unless you meant that there would be a rule preventing people from simply disbanding nations they defeat.

Kinda, yeah. If they want, they can act like they absorbed the land, increasing the size and shape of the nation in their box, but you can't force the erasing or absorb someone else's box.
 

In this case though, there would also need to be something in place to prevent defeated nations from saying "Oh, you can't set up collaborationist governments, cuz I get to rp all my citizens, and I say that anyone of my people you pick to be a part of the collaborationist govt. dies of a stroke."

Then you set up a military governor. But unless someone wants to spend all their time doing a resistance movement and nothing else, they'll gravitate towards collaborators or towards an independent government that favors you. 
 

Also someone could horribly play the system by stating that their nation is one surrounded by lava rivers and lakes, with huge mountains with super high winds that stop aircraft and have never ending storms etc etc.

The problem with that is that you have to live by the rules you create. If you're surrounded by lava rivers and mountains and high winds that don't allow airplanes to fly, then I hope you also don't like RPing with anyone else because none of your characters are getting in or out either.
 

The main benefit I see for having the cnrp map is that it ensures that everyone knows what the terrain is like as you compare it to earth. Allowing random terrain can allow a lot of exploitation.

To tell you the truth, I'm fairly certain that if this goes through, most people will just do carbon copies of their existing CNRP nations, complete with geography. This is not meant to change anyone's RP, it's just an idea that I think fixes the problems that come along with the existence of the current Earth-type CNRP map.

Edited by KaiserMelech Mikhail
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Then you just carry over your nation. The current Earth-type map is dissolved because the Earth-type map really offers more problems than it's worth. CNRP already offers you the ability to RP any culture and any resources no matter where you are, so at this point, the only point of the map is to determine who your neighbors are. I know you're super psyched about being Cascadia, but there is no reason you can't make the nation inside your box a carbon copy of the Pacific Northwest. In fact, this works out especially well for you, since you don't have to worry about things like Russian Vancouver.

This is Peter, not Dillon, so no being psyched about Cascadia. Also, I don't know why people would actually be worried about Russian Vancouver, unless you actually want to have trouble with Japan.

 

But running an occupation/collaborationist govt. is already an option, isn't it? It's just that no one uses it since it's just so much easier to wipe someone off the map.

Unless you meant that there would be a rule preventing people from simply disbanding nations they defeat. In this case though, there would also need to be something in place to prevent defeated nations from saying "Oh, you can't set up collaborationist governments, cuz I get to rp all my citizens, and I say that anyone of my people you pick to be a part of the collaborationist govt. dies of a stroke."

You already cannot dissolve a nation, except by maybe genociding the entire population and using the territory as Lebensraum of people controlled by you. Given how highly unlikely it is that people opt to employ Third Reich depopulation and resettlement schemes due to political costs (and the explicit forum rule against genocide), a determined person will normally be able to stay in the territory. And as an occupied nation you of course can refuse to cooperate, but then as occupier I could just set in a military government run by my armed forces. And unlike genocide, general harrassment, as long as not described in excruciating brutal detail is very much an option. And if you refuse to collaborate then and I just start fusilating those not obeying, it isn't strictly speaking planned genocide if all your people die or get arrested and sent to labour camps. Trust me, I lost wars thrice and was occupied twice. If you don't reroll, it is likely both sides will at some point grudgingly agree on modus vivendi in order to prevent mass killings... ok, unless you are Mara.

 

Anyway, I do not like this idea, I do not think most people do and I doubt it actually adresses community concerns. We already had your §%&$&§$% custom continent &%#§ of a rule and it worked out so well. As the sole other person to ever bother settling in Pasirung, it was less than amusing and I eventually left for good to Japan. I'm against any other such pointless rule change that just messes up the current map and won't yield any worthwhile results.

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This is Peter, not Dillon, so no being psyched about Cascadia.

They all look the same to me.
 

You already cannot dissolve a nation, except by maybe genociding the entire population and using the territory as Lebensraum of people controlled by you.

In the past, complete dissolution of a country was a common result of losing a war CNRP (not just people ragequitting, but surrender terms were the abolition of that country). This idea essentially removes that option.

ok, unless you are Mara.

I miss Mara.

Anyway, I do not like this idea, I do not think most people do and I doubt it actually adresses community concerns.

I think it does. I spelled out a list of things that this fixes. Do you have a better way to fix the aspergers-type behavior that comes with people not joining because they can't get the land they want?
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In the past, complete dissolution of a country was a common result of losing a war CNRP (not just people ragequitting, but surrender terms were the abolition of that country). This idea essentially removes that option.

Don't surrender on these terms OOC.

 

I think it does. I spelled out a list of things that this fixes. Do you have a better way to fix the aspergers-type behavior that comes with people not joining because they can't get the land they want?

Given you can have a new Germany already now, it doesn't fix shit. I already pointed that out at the time you came up with that last proposal and look, I was right. People who are complaining they can't get their ideal land and thus don't join either see some other reasons that also figure into the decision to not join or they just outright hate someone here and not getting that specific piece of land doesn't look as much like the asshattery it is.

 

No we don't need squares in a world where we can already have Pasirungs that simply do not work.

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Yeah, I would like my CSA to not be square. Make a totally new rp instead of trying to change it.

 

Also, last time I checked there are only 7 continents on the cnrp map.

 

Gotta go with Mrdirector's proposal for just making our own landmasses and posting in a thread, but again, I would like the REAL cnrp to still exist and this be separate.

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Also, last time I checked there are only 7 continents on the cnrp map.
 
Gotta go with Mrdirector's proposal for just making our own landmasses and posting in a thread, but again, I would like the REAL cnrp to still exist and this be separate.

Custom continents do exist, they were just left off the map because they look ugly.
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