The topic you've all been waiting for

[Starcraftmazter]

You have no intention of giving anyone screenshots.
 
I spent 1.5B fighting DBDC over the past month. I personally took over 30k nation strength off of a nuke turtle. There are several more in my alliance who can say the same. We've done our work. You have no intention of giving screenshots to anyone.

 

Give this man some screenshots!
 
 

The leaks I provided obviously states that GPA will be safe for 6 months and then is their turn to be annihilated.

 
Conjecture.
 
 
 

This is only to educate/warn those that their days are counted but apparently IRON thinks they're safe by a Treaty LOL!! You see Iron, you can always cancel treaties and switch to the other side :)

IRON isn't just treatied to DBDC, at this stage they have treaties with allies of DBDC....

What do you propose is going to happen, everyone just backstabs IRON on a cold night all at once? After railing on them so hard for their actions relating to NG? Do you honestly put forward this as your master theory?

[Baldr]

It does not have to be entire alliances that join us. It can be Individuals who want to make a difference and stand up to the tyrant.

 

Despite all the talk, you still look just like the rest of DBDC to me.  You spent your time there, you were a part of it, and you're no different from them.

 

The fact that you have one war declared on DBDC, and three you've declared on SPATR doesn't help.

 

/Trojan Horse, much?

[Prodigal Moon]

I know this is difficult because Polarsphere has a history of doing nothing for itself, but when I find out someone is trying to roll my alliance or my allies, it usually shifts me to work against that alliance's interest. But if that threat isn't there, why would I change course? Before IRON had their NAP with DBDC, we would have assisted IRON in the event of an attack as they offered to us when Donada was hit, and we did in fact do when DBDC attacked our allies during EQ. Otter can show you those scars.

However, DBDC has been nothing but cordial in the last year to Argent, why antagonize them because other people that I don't even particularly care for don't like them? I know DBDC is your big bad, that's fine, they don't shy away from it. But that doesn't make them ours. If there is proof of this, then it serves to change approaches. But until then, this is nothing more than a dog and pony show with the attempt to save neutral alliances that never cared before, and will not be cared about as a result.

 

That's the thing: they can never not be a threat. They operate on pure self-interest, and they're way stronger than the rest of us. So if you're in range, your only hope is to either make sure you align yourself with their intersts, or scramble to make yourselves strong enough so that it's not in their interest to raid you or knock you down a peg. I don't think any AA has accomplished either of those things, so after the neutrals fall out of range, we'll just have to see what happens. Even if you want to give them the benefit of the doubt, keep in mind that the treaty web shifts alllll the time. What are you going to do when things inevitably shift down the road, after Cuba's at 120 thousand tech?

 

@Gh0s7: What could be better realpolitik than treatying every AA with a large super tier?? I don't think they just coincidentally happened to get along really well with all of those AA's.

 

I can't speak definitively about them honoring their word, but it sure seems like there have been some pretty huge...misunderstandings...about the Do Not Raid list. The neutrals are the most logical target right now, but I'm totally confident in my prediction for what comes next. Feel free to throw this in my face if I end up wrong.

[Groucho Marx]

How is WTF not a "true neutral"?

 

They have a treaty with Fark. A PIAT, if memory serves.

[Lord Hitchcock]

 
Hint: It's a lot more fun to dominate a lower tier than spend hours searching for fresh tech sellers every week. It's a win-win setup for both sides. 

Have you looked at the aid history? I encourage you to do so. I encourage everyone to look on carnivores and check out DBDCs past foreign aid history. It's not anything I can't make up- just take a quick look and tell me what you think.

I'm just saying that some of those loyal tech suppliers have never even received dbdc aid, and the ones who do are usually 3rd party and the amount of money they do send doesn't even cover the tech they send out.

DBDC has a great system- Obviously there are nations out there who play the game, and do not get the 600 infra jump each month, and still have fun by soley sending dbdc tech, even at their own expense Edited February 2, 2015 by Lord Hitchcock

[James Spanier]

That's the thing: they can never not be a threat. They operate on pure self-interest, and they're way stronger than the rest of us. So if you're in range, your only hope is to either make sure you align yourself with their intersts, or scramble to make yourselves strong enough so that it's not in their interest to raid you or knock you down a peg. I don't think any AA has accomplished either of those things, so after the neutrals fall out of range, we'll just have to see what happens. Even if you want to give them the benefit of the doubt, keep in mind that the treaty web shifts alllll the time. What are you going to do when things inevitably shift down the road, after Cuba's at 120 thousand tech?

First off, I'd like to applaud you. This is a much better approach than trying to lobby on logs that may or may not exist. That said, I must respectfully disagree with the notion that we must be with them or against them. I don't think DBDC, in all of their pragmatism, have only two lists. Perhaps things will shift and we will be enemies by default, but at that point I don't think it would be DBDC targeting Argent or her allies. Once more, if something concrete comes up, it changes how courses are plotted, it always does. But I don't take OWF hearsay as a form of concrete evidence. If there are logs of DBDC, and I mean recent logs, gunning for IRON, I think IRON and her allies (which includes Argent) will need to do much assessing.

Maybe it's naive, perhaps it's the same trap the neutrals fell into, but unfortunately for those proponents of "roll DBDC", there's little reason for those not already bitter enemies with DBDC to even bother with the thought of going out of their way to join that crowd because they might gun for them. At that point, why have friends at all when one day you may be on opposite sides?

[renegade4box]

Have you looked at the aid history? I encourage you to do so. I encourage everyone to look on carnivores and check out DBDCs past foreign aid history. It's not anything I can't make up- just take a quick look and tell me what you think.

I'm just saying that some of those loyal tech suppliers have never even received dbdc aid, and the ones who do are usually 3rd party and the amount of money they do send doesn't even cover the tech they send out.

DBDC has a great system- Obviously there are nations out there who play the game, and do not get the 600 infra jump each month, and still have fun by soley sending dbdc tech, even at their own expense

 

Have you looked at my aid history? I've sent DBDC somewhere around 25k tech. I'd rather help my friends than spend a ton of time tracking down tech sellers and end up getting owned in the mid tiers with nothing to show for it. 

[Jgoods45]

I for one believe that this whole affair is not interesting. I wish you all the best regardless.   

[Dajobo]

I applaud IRON's stance of believing their ally DBDC will always be their ally and I hope they stand firm on that right up to the end.

[James Spanier]

I applaud IRON's stance of believing their ally DBDC will always be their ally and I hope they stand firm on that right up to the end.

Like Sparta and XX?

[JoshuaR]

Given that Umbrella's views on MI6 changed quickly as soon as we realized what they were plotting, surely if there were real evidence, someone would have been smart enough to send it our way by now.

[Facade]

Given that Umbrella's views on MI6 changed quickly as soon as we realized what they were plotting, surely if there were real evidence, someone would have been smart enough to send it our way by now.

The teaplotting is real.

[CubaQuerida]

Given that Umbrella's views on MI6 changed quickly as soon as we realized what they were plotting, surely if there were real evidence, someone would have been smart enough to send it our way by now.

But Josh, there IS real evidence.  You just have to join WTF and declare on me and you'll have it!

 

(no, literally you'll have it at that point, because that's not cool man)

[Alexio15]

I for one believe that this whole affair is not interesting. I wish you all the best regardless.   

^ Essentially this.

[kingzog]

I'm really upset more by the fact that the OWF community seems fine with setting the precedent that private intra alliance communications are in any way justified to be posted to the public forums. This has always been a despicable issue with people I've known and while today's logs may not show anything of value (and these magical "reserved logs" won't show anything either) somebody out there has dirt on somebody else's alliance and I'm just not sure we want to go down this road.

 

We go down this road every now and then. Usually it ends up much like this; a bunch of musings that we're expected to take as formal planning. (Speaking of which, if you want to organize a war against WTF I'd be happy to help to make your case to my alliance and its allies. Or not. I don't know. Just sayin'. And don't you dare repeat this to anyone.)

 

This little crusade will likely end the same way every other crusade like this has concluded. It will be a complete failure and its proponents will fade into well-deserved obscurity when their credibility is smashed. (And, for reasons that should be obvious, with each day you exist in this world their thesis becomes just a little bit more untenable.)

[Unknown Smurf]

But Josh, there IS real evidence.  You just have to join WTF and declare on me and you'll have it!

 

(no, literally you'll have it at that point, because that's not cool man)

 

OP is stating by joining WTF you will get the info that is not allowed to be posted here I believe. 

 

Which means there is no conspiracy against Umb (or IRON etc).

 

DBDC would never risk discuss hitting Umb, especially not with those that are potential security risks (as Cuba mentioned he has considered CT a potential security risk since he joined DBDC).

 

Moreover they wouldn't hit Umb because Umb is their strongest ally. Why the fuck would DBDC ever plot to hit those that keep them in power?

Edited February 2, 2015 by Unknown Smurf

[CubaQuerida]

 

OP is stating by joining WTF you will get the info that is not allowed to be posted here I believe. 

 

Which means there is no conspiracy against Umb (or IRON etc).

 

DBDC would never risk discuss hitting Umb, especially not with those that are potential security risks (as Cuba mentioned he has considered CT a potential security risk since he joined DBDC). 

Oh it's never been a 'potential risk' good sir.  The risk was quite identified prior to his admission into DBDC, where he lined up against us on GOP's sideline for a brief moment.  The chance that anything of value would be contained in public logs is pretty marginal.  Aw damn.  I thought we were rolling UMB and then IRON.  Guess I'll have to edit my bio.

[Margrave]

You know the amusing thing is that none of us have acknowledged how often these things get discussed behind closed doors in B.S. threads or in meetings. A b.s. match doesn't typically dictate foreign policy in Bob.

[trimm]

My distaste for DBDC aside, I think virtually every alliance in CN has had hypothetical conversations in their gov channels that would be absolutely scandalous if they leaked onto a public forum.  That's why you don't talk about them on a public forum.  But to read anything into most of the logs and screenshots that do get passed around is pretty silly.

[Franz Ferdinand]

My distaste for DBDC aside, I think virtually every alliance in CN has had hypothetical conversations in their gov channels that would be absolutely scandalous if they leaked onto a public forum.  That's why you don't talk about them on a public forum.  But to read anything into most of the logs and screenshots that do get passed around is pretty silly.

Wait, we aren't meant to leak those hypothetical conversations? Time to start bulk buying bleach!

[Starfox101]

Just out of curiosity, why is CT being sanctioned on every color? He has attacked your alliance for no reason (except for his own), just as you attack others for no reason (except for your own).

 

The hypocrisy from this thread is real.

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

Just out of curiosity, why is CT being sanctioned on every color? He has attacked your alliance for no reason (except for his own), just as you attack others for no reason (except for your own).

 

The hypocrisy from this thread is real.

 

Roguing SPATR, I'd assumed.

 

e: of course, now that WTF have welcomed a nuclear rogue into their alliance, I'd presume that SPATR and co have a nice CB to utilise if they wished to do.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz

[eejack]

 

Roguing SPATR, I'd assumed.

 

e: of course, now that WTF have welcomed a nuclear rogue into their alliance, I'd presume that SPATR and co have a nice CB to utilise if they wished to do.

 

I see no reason for you to assume, you did the sanction on black.

 

We all assume you had a reason. If it was for raiding, then I would expect all raiders on black to be sanctioned. If it was for attacking SPATR, well then as you pointed out...politics will find a way to handle it.

 

As goofy and childish as this entire pile of steaming shenanigans appears it would be pleasant if our senators didn't sanction folks because their friends willed it.

 

The sanction seems tacky and over the top since it is obvious DBDC can handle one wee nation all by it's lonesome.

Edited February 3, 2015 by EEjack

[Prodigal Moon]

It seems we're supposed to believe that the singular of DOOMBIRDS is pronounced "rogue."

 

Edit: I shouldn't make assumptions - maybe DBDC just wants to start a sanction war. That's cool.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Prodigal Moon

[CubaQuerida]

 

Roguing SPATR, I'd assumed.

 

e: of course, now that WTF have welcomed a nuclear rogue into their alliance, I'd presume that SPATR and co have a nice CB to utilise if they wished to do.

As Caliph succintly put it:

 

If you hate your alliance, changing it is easy to do, no need to betray them.  He's considered to be acting on his own accord, unless WTF would care to formally acknowledge a state of war with SPATR right here in this thread.  In that case, I'm all ears.