European War OOC Thread

[Triyun]

I am saying that you are free to do whatever just effects you, but as soon as you have to play with other people in something you have to go off a common set standard be that IG in CN RP 1, IG Moderated in CN RP 2, or Point Allocation in CN RP 40.  That the same base opportunity applies to everyone and how one can gain further is spelled out in the rules not made up at the whim of one player.

[Mogar]

I openly acknowledged to every single nation during my diplomatic blitz that my nation was in a full wartime economy, which means construction of additional weapons, unless Ty decides to rule against me having the capability to do so, I will continue to behave as though I have been constructing weapons for the past two decades unhindered. you are essentially making the argument this should be ROLLplay, not ROLEplay, if nothing we RP matters besides War, then I'm certain RP2 will end up with a map just as dead as RP1.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Mogar

[Maelstrom Vortex]

I suppose it's obvious we need to find some middle ground and begin consider regulation of standard ordinance. Might I advocate the number of missiles one be allowed be equal to the amount of one's tech -3400 x 100, or would that be advocating to much in my own self interest again since my own stats have been nerfed to hell while infrastructure goes practically uncapped? :P

 

Not that I sincerely care, I just like making things go boom.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Centurius]

I openly acknowledged to every single nation during my diplomatic blitz that my nation was in a full wartime economy, which means construction of additional weapons, unless Ty decides to rule against me having the capability to do so, I will continue to behave as though I have been constructing weapons for the past two decades unhindered. you are essentially making the argument this should be ROLLplay, not ROLEplay, if nothing we RP matters besides War, then I'm certain RP2 will end up with a map just as dead as RP1.

So you're saying you are a country with a wartime economy that can still pump out massive numbers of civilian electronics, does not suffer from the inherent negative side effects of such a wartime economy, on your own timescale, get to use unlikely, if not outright impossible, stuff from civilian rp for war use and do not have a population living in incredible poverty or actively rebelling?

[Mogar]

So you're saying you are a country with a wartime economy that can still pump out massive numbers of civilian electronics, does not suffer from the inherent negative side effects of such a wartime economy, on your own timescale, get to use unlikely, if not outright impossible, stuff from civilian rp for war use and do not have a population living in incredible poverty or actively rebelling?

I have limited markets for civilian electronics, perhaps if you wished to trade with me I wouldn't have had to maintain a war economy. ;)

 

As for drawbacks, my nation is owned by Tikal, thankfully they're more interested in space than the US/China debt relationship we've developed.

 

I've not used any optional canon technology in wars that I have not been given permission to use them in, otherwise there would be a few nuclear powered blimps running electronic warfare over Britain currently.

 

Populations tend to not rebel when there's a constant threat to your nation's survival, which thanks to Vektor I have plenty of ability to propagandize

[Triyun]

In CN RP we had pretty sensible, 'Common Sense' caps when this became an issue.  Which was you had all the ammo you wanted for planes and ships that existed as part of your stats, but you had for top tiers something like I think 5000 short range 500 medium/intermediate range, and were capped at 50 for intercontinental range that weren't attached.  Never seemed to be a problem and is very fair, gives everyone equal opportunity for something not quantified in game.

 

You could do something like an average Infra/Tech number.  If your average between infra and tech > 10000 that level, if its greater than 5000 > 2/3 that, Greater than 2500 >  half that, below that 1/4 or something.  I get what you're saying about tech, but realistically you need both, this would help handicap.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Did I mention I've been building silos in the Himalayas? Like.. since I built Shangrila? :P

 

Hrmm.. is not a bad idea. I think we need to open the idea to discussion. But doing it in the middle of a war is kinda bad form. We should have made the cap a long time ago or wait til after. Since a long time ago is not an option I think the GM's should moderate this war and we look into caps seriously for after.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Centurius]

I have limited markets for civilian electronics, perhaps if you wished to trade with me I wouldn't have had to maintain a war economy. ;)

 

As for drawbacks, my nation is owned by Tikal, thankfully they're more interested in space than the US/China debt relationship we've developed.

 

I've not used any optional canon technology in wars that I have not been given permission to use them in, otherwise there would be a few nuclear powered blimps running electronic warfare over Britain currently.

 

Populations tend to not rebel when there's a constant threat to your nation's survival, which thanks to Vektor I have plenty of ability to propagandize

There is a difference between not wanting to open up free trade and not having trade.

 

Tikal owning you does not mean you get to avoid the negative effects, the negative effects of a war economy come in the fact that all your resources and production capacity are focused on a war effort. That is a war economy.

[Mogar]

There is a difference between not wanting to open up free trade and not having trade.

 

Tikal owning you does not mean you get to avoid the negative effects, the negative effects of a war economy come in the fact that all your resources and production capacity are focused on a war effort. That is a war economy.

You did not wish to trade with me on any level, reading over the diplomatic thread Uber started, in fact you refused every single major industry I would have in a 2014 time scale, as such GLR, Tikal/NA, and SEATO are my only markets, which means I am still lacking on the two largest. Due to this, the vast majority of factories within my territory are devoted to manufacturing weapons over civilian technology, the majority of my population is either working, sleeping, or partying to forget the fact the world surrounding them is an evil place. Fortunately with bankrolling by foreign powers those negative effects tend to be lessened quite significantly.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

I appreciate the debate over Japan's wartime economy. But it would have been better served if the players concerned with the issue would have addressed it when it was actually posted and rp'd out.. rather than waiting til they were in a war with the player who is the target of their complaints. Can we get back to rping anytime soon?

 

Come up with some reforms and we'll address them once the war is over. The complaints should have been filed pre-war.

 

What I see is an attempted abuse of GM power in order to attempt to manipulate an outcome. This forum has been open for your use in listing any complains about players rps that you may have had all the way up until this point and there wasn't a peep until this war began. I hate to tell you this, ooc/gms hall is not a weapon.

 

You will have to content with the battlefield you have allowed to be created for you.

 

If you are not reading other people's threads are not paying attention to the general community, in particular your rivals, that is your own undoing. The point of us being here is to pay attention to each other's works. Not just to polish our own rockets. Although I do like mine, they glow pretty and green.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Triyun]

I have limited markets for civilian electronics, perhaps if you wished to trade with me I wouldn't have had to maintain a war economy. ;)

 

As for drawbacks, my nation is owned by Tikal, thankfully they're more interested in space than the US/China debt relationship we've developed.

 

I've not used any optional canon technology in wars that I have not been given permission to use them in, otherwise there would be a few nuclear powered blimps running electronic warfare over Britain currently.

 

Populations tend to not rebel when there's a constant threat to your nation's survival, which thanks to Vektor I have plenty of ability to propagandize

 

Actually that's not true at all.  There was a constant threat to the national survival of Royalist France, the Eastern Bloc Countries of the 20th Century, the Imperial German Monarchy, the Russian Empire, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Ottoman Empire, Saddam Hussein's Iraq during the Iran-Iraq War, all of which faced severe national economic crises while severe national security threats.  The only ones you really would have any data supporting you are the German Heartland of Nazi Germany which was in much a part of massive political oppression and Imperial Japan.  

[Mogar]

I'd like to ask where these arguments were when Vektor dropped more bombs on me in 8 hours than the United States did in 14 months of Vietnam, unless you're going to admit you only give a !@#$ when you're on the receiving end.

 

as for the "political crisis" I'd allegedly be under, the state controls the media, and since there's numerous states surrounding me that act agressive towards me, it makes it easy to keep the outlying lands in line, a threat to Japan means they have to engage the rest of East Asia, we're all brothers and sisters over here.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Mogar

[Centurius]

I appreciate the debate over Japan's wartime economy. But it would have been better served if the players concerned with the issue would have addressed it when it was actually posted and rp'd out.. rather than waiting til they were in a war with the player who is the target of their complaints. Can we get back to rping anytime soon?

 

Come up with some reforms and we'll address them once the war is over. The complaints should have been filed pre-war.

 

What I see is an attempted abuse of GM power in order to attempt to manipulate an outcome. This forum has been open for your use in listing any complains about players rps that you may have had all the way up until this point and there wasn't a peep until this war began. I hate to tell you this, ooc/gms hall is not a weapon.

 

You will have to content with the battlefield you have allowed to be created for you.

 

If you are not reading other people's threads are not paying attention to the general community, in particular your rivals, that is your own undoing. The point of us being here is to pay attention to each other's works. Not just to polish our own rockets. Although I do like mine, they glow pretty and green.

It wasn't a problem until civilian rp was going to affect war rp.

[Mogar]

It wasn't a problem until civilian rp was going to affect war rp.

so effectively we're all playing risk, not a RP game, no RP matters besides war.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

It wasn't a problem until civilian rp was going to affect war rp.

 

It was a problem because it would eventually affect war. You're a smart player Centurius, or at least I would hope you are smart enough to have realized the implications of Mogar's posts on eventual warfare? If you had a problem with ANY of his rps.. you should have spoken up.. and if you really didn't have the foresight to see this coming.. well, it's going to radically change the way I perceive you and not in a positive light. You and Triyun bost all these strategic and tactical skills and you tell me you didn't realize that being so heavily invested in wartime economics wasn't going to amount to something in an eventual war?

 

Pardon if I don't take that reasoning as anything more than an excuse.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Triyun]

I'd like to ask where these arguments were when Vektor dropped more bombs on me in 8 hours than the United States did in 14 months of Vietnam, unless you're going to admit you only give a !@#$ when you're on the receiving end.

 

as for the "political crisis" I'd allegedly be under, the state controls the media, and since there's numerous states surrounding me that act agressive towards me, it makes it easy to keep the outlying lands in line, a threat to Japan means they have to engage the rest of East Asia, we're all brothers and sisters over here.

If Vektor had the planes and ships to drop them, I didn't read that thread more than skim it and I wasn't a GM at the time.  2000 would be a high number for a high threat scenario, 6000 for [i]one volley[/i] is a whole nother can of worms.  If you could get to 6000 on planes and ships, I could say 6000 is reasonable.  But just having land launchers that don't exist in game, to launch missiles that don't exist in game, respawned by industry not based on an in game number, but you say is the highest is the definition of a god mode.  All of which is more than the US and Soviets in their stand off combined, which is more than the Chinese have pointed at Taiwan, which is more than on the inter Korean border etc.  All of which you argue should be [i]one salvo[/i].

 

Otherwise why don't I just say I have 10, 000.  Then you can say you have 15, then I say 20, and we can go on till we turned all land into giant VLS tubes.  No.  We should all operate on common sense caps.  And if you're really all that threatened by your neighbors you'd be acting pretty OOC to be bringing 6000+ again 3 times the amount China who is also surrounded by hostile neighbors has IRL, around the world to fight people because of an accidental cop a feel on a breast.

[Voodoo Nova]

Not everyone has time to read every single thread and every single post made by people.

 

Edit: This is in reference to Mael's post.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Voodoo Nova

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Not everyone has time to read every single thread and every single post made by people.

 

Edit: This is in reference to Mael's post.

 

Oh come no now. You're going to hide behind that. You're telling me you don't read the posts of your geo-strategic adversaries? Then whose posts are you reading? Just your own? Don't even just skim them? You think you're the only one who has time limitations?

 

Sounds like another excuse to me for crappy risk playing. Not rping.

 

Rping requires a certain level of interaction with the players involved. If you don't have the time for it.. then you don't have time for it. Sometimes that happens.

 

Players actions cannot be ignored simply because you didn't have time to read them when the rest of us did. Courtesy only goes until the extension of courtesy causes discourtesy to another. Therefore, your argument is moot.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Triyun]

 

Oh come no now. You're going to hide behind that. You're telling me you don't read the posts of your geo-strategic adversaries? Then whose posts are you reading? Just your own?

Actually pretty often.  I read who I think has interesting stuff.  I personally find Mogar's stuff to be very Mary Sue and not worth reading.

 

In all honesty, the issue is that there is no rule saying that economies are a thing in CN RP, and its never been a rule that that's been the case so there is no frame of reference to say it applies in this situation.  To argue it does is ridiculous.  You need a rule to say something counts towards war or it doesn't.  That is only fair for equal opportunity for all.

[Mogar]

Looks like a ground launched variant exists to me, and just the right size to fit into a container too! You had the chance to RP out your economy and provide yourself with the ability to produce vast weapons caches, unfortunately, you chose to do lulz RP instead.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Mogar

[Triyun]

Ground launched or not isn't the issue.  The issue is the things been in production for a long time and only 1000 of them including air, sea, and land are being built split between two countries which spend a lot as a percent of GDP on defense.  You fired 6 times that in a single post.  I'm asking for some common sense level of firing.

[Mogar]

I sincerely doubt either countries spend the majority of their GDP on one particular type of missiles, if you want common sense the total cost of creating that many missiles would be about $15,000,000,000, which would be nothing based off my RL numbers GDP of about 10 trillion. You are using "realism" but then tend to ignore it when it is not in your favor, in this case I have the money to blow, and have produced significant stockpiles of a missile design that will be most likely to avoid missile defense systems, as a state with the capability would do so if they felt they were in imminent danger of being attacked, which based off the fact I'm still not allowed in the Indian, I have a completely justified IC reason for believing so.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Mogar

[Maelstrom Vortex]

What missiles a nation chooses to produce is varied depending upon their perceived need. THere are literally hundreds of thousands of missiles in this world. 10000, would not be breaking a sweat for most modern powers.

 

For example, the US has alone 4000 tomahawk missiles, and that's just one missile type.

"An Estimated 20,000 Surface-to-Air Missiles Are Unsecured in Libya"

^ And that's not even in a semi-modern state. That's just what I could find when searching "missile stockpiles - nuclear" because without the - nuclear it's all they talk about.

 

And we have a player who plays a modern state who has point blankly dedicated their rp to the production of these weapons. Perhaps you should have acted before they produced them.

 

I am still looking for a definitive total misled count from a nation like the United States or Russia.. but to be honest I don't think getting such a tally would be possible for such to even exist because there are so many!

Edited October 6, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Triyun]

I sincerely doubt either countries spend the majority of their GDP on one particular type of missiles, if you want common sense the total cost of creating that many missiles would be about $15,000,000,000, which would be nothing based off my RL numbers GDP of about 10 trillion. You are using "realism" but then tend to ignore it when it is not in your favor, in this case I have the money to blow, and have produced significant stockpiles of a missile design that will be most likely to avoid missile defense systems, as a state with the capability would do so if they felt they were in imminent danger of being attacked, which based off the fact I'm still not allowed in the Indian, I have a completely justified IC reason for believing so.

 

I am not ignoring realism.  I'm saying claiming to have a 10 trillion dollar economy based on map location, and then claiming that that gives you this massive amount of missiles where you suffer no ill effects is flat out god moding.  Thats substituting stats for a battlefield advantage, thats not civilian RP, and there is nothing in the rules of CN RP 2 that says you can use your location on the map to have more fire power in a military conflict than someone else.  

 

I'll defer further judgement on the point to Ty.

[Mogar]

I RP'd my economy being heavily Industrialized, and that industry focusing on military based production, you did not RP an economy, I should be weakened because I actually RP'd and you did not?

Edited October 6, 2014 by Mogar