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DIscussion: Nerf Navies


Mogar

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None of you are actually interested in getting rid of any advantage you have because of your CN stats. The big nations are interested in making sure that big nations are the best, whereas the mid-tier nations want the mid-tier nations and big nations to be more or less the same. Literally every single argument we have on these forums is between a bunch of self-interested sophists who couldn't care less about the wider effects of what they're doing as long as it means that they get an advantage, which means that the only way you're ever going to achieve your parity with the large nations is to give up your advantage over the smaller nations. Until you're prepared to do that, the smaller nations will always vote to give the larger nations an advantage over you because regardless of what happens, the smaller nations will be at a disadvantage anyway, and so they might as well let the big nations reign supreme and then just ally and/or kowtow to them.

Or, in other words, until you're all ready to stop being such transparent cretins and design an egalitarian RP system divorced from CN game stats entirely, this discussion will never lead to anything worthwhile. I can't wait to hear the arguments about how giving everybody a cookie cutter nation build based on CN stats is the way to allow maximum customizability, or how giving big nations advantages but calling it a points system somehow changes the way things are now. No, they don't, and you know they don't, and none of you deserve any bonuses in this RP based on how long you've been playing CN, and furthermore, the idea of a RP based on arbitrary CN stats is stupid given we've already seen what happens over the course of several years. Not to mention that CN stats themselves are bunk and only roughly tied to their RL usefulness.

Why play CN RP then, just go RP, thats what I do for most character RP stuff I do.

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Ksgt0jo.png

Possible Revamped Navy Option

 

Based on your NS, you are allocated a maximum number of points and ships. The points can be used to build your navy with the corresponding point conversion table. This constitutes the entirety of your navy, no IG stats would be included.

 

Thoughts are welcome, especially on modifying the various numbers.

 

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My poll option, or my take on Ty's suggestion:

 

 

NS              points          total ships

100k+         300              100

50k+           250              80

25k+           200              60

0k+             150              40

 

 

Point values ty proposes seems workable for me. No changes to that.

Edited by Tidy Bowl Man
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Going to bed now, but I can work on a "keep it simple" point system tomorrow. Would probably encompass more than just navy (or rather, would be modular with options for air, ground, navy). Objectives being to limit the ability of large IG nations from being able to stomp nations IC due to stats that have nothing to do with RP, and keeping things easy to use and transparent. Balance, transparency, ease of use. I'll slap it up tomorrow or later in the week, depending on how distracted I get, or how lazy, or wtfever. Then you can all rip it apart and kvetch. :P

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I propose not letting people over a certain NS rp here. Idk, maybe 50k should be the cut off. Additionally I don't think people over 50k should be allowed to join the IRC channel, because all they do is troll us lowbies. These super high NS people just want to destroy our low ns purity. I think this is disgusting. This rp was founded by people under 50k for people under 50k. Those dirty, wide-nose having 50k+ers should go back to CNRPrime where they can run around with their booty shaking music and wood huts. CNRP2 For Lowbies! Death to Highbies! We don't want you here!

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I propose not letting people over a certain NS rp here. Idk, maybe 50k should be the cut off. Additionally I don't think people over 50k should be allowed to join the IRC channel, because all they do is troll us lowbies. These super high NS people just want to destroy our low ns purity. I think this is disgusting. This rp was founded by people under 50k for people under 50k. Those dirty, wide-nose having 50k+ers should go back to CNRPrime where they can run around with their booty shaking music and wood huts. CNRP2 For Lowbies! Death to Highbies! We don't want you here!

 

This is splendid character rp bro. xoxo.

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Ksgt0jo.png

Possible Revamped Navy Option

 

Based on your NS, you are allocated a maximum number of points and ships. The points can be used to build your navy with the corresponding point conversion table. This constitutes the entirety of your navy, no IG stats would be included.

 

Thoughts are welcome, especially on modifying the various numbers.

 

 

I support this, not least because I would have a decent navy. TBM's proposal is too slanted against small nations like me. (I mean, 20 ships? Really?)

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I support this, not least because I  would have a decent navy. TBM's proposal is too slanted against small nations like me. (I mean, 20 ships? Really?)

 

Emphasis on I good sir, emphasis on I! And for reference, I added my proposal as a means of balancing the polling options a bit. I'm probably smaller than you jed, though I'm not sure how I'd vote at this point.

Edited by Tidy Bowl Man
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I support this, not least because I would have a decent navy. TBM's proposal is too slanted against small nations like me. (I mean, 20 ships? Really?)

It suffices for a carrier, 5 destroyers, 5 frigates and 9 corvettes.

 

Or 8 diesel subs, 2 destroyers, 4 frigates and 5 corvettes, if you don't like naval aviation.

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For reference, as someone with below 20K NS, my navy is ~40 ships without corvettes. I would agree with JED that TBM's proposal severely undercuts the lower NS nations. 

 

I support a revamp of the naval system primarily to remove the complexity of the point/IG hybrid system and to allow for some more flexibility in ship selection. That being said, I support the reduction of inequality between the strongest and weakest nations in this RP because I believe its initial intent was to create a more level playing field so that the primary focus can be on collaborative roleplaying. 

 

The numbers I posted wouldn't have much of an effect on a nation my size other than give me more flexibility. I think it would have a larger impact at the higher tiers which I'm fine with for the reasons I've listed.

 

That being said, can people please discuss possible edits to proposed changes or suggest their own? I'd like to give people time to look over all options and have a vote up and running in the next few days.

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I honestly do not see what is wrong with the current system. We keep moving away from this being cybernations rp and ever more to it being "random nations based on rules."

 

There are natural disparities in the navies of the world. There are ways to adequately defend even against a well developed navy. Since the argument cannot bad made that the disparity is unrealistic.. and the argument also cannot be made that this will better simulate our cn nations.. and the argument that it arbitrarily redistributes the balance can be made, I don't see how any of the above proposals would be logical.

 

Feel free to talk at length with me about your ideas in chat to convince me otherwise. My mind is not closed to the concept of naval revisions.

Edited by Maelstrom Vortex
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So, here's my simple system for a more balanced RP2 navy, while still keeping ~some~ attachment to our IG nations (not that I think that such an attachment is ideal, but it seems to be what's desired).

 

Going similar to Ty's, in that ships are becoming cheaper in points.

Corvette: 1

Frigate: 2

Destroyer: 5

Cruiser: 5

Battleship: 3

Landingship/AA: 7

Aircraft Carrier: 12

Diesel Submarine: 5

Nuclear Submarine: 7

 

And going with infra for points, rather than NS.

 

0-5,00 Infra: 1 point per 100 Infra

5,000-10,000 Infra: 1 point per 200 Infra

10,000-15,000 Infra: 1 point per 500 Infra

15,000-20,000 Infra: 1 point per 1,000 Infra

20,000+ Infra: 1 point per 2,000 Infra

 

Alternative point scale-

0-5,00 Infra: 2 point per 100 Infra

5,000-10,000 Infra: 2 points per 200 Infra

10,000-15,000 Infra: 2 points per 500 Infra

15,000-20,000 Infra: 2 points per 1,000 Infra

20,000+ Infra: 2 points per 2,000 Infra

 

Not a solid cap, but scaling returns for infra. I don't think we have anyone above 20k infra here, so I haven't bothered to scale above that. If we do, lemme know and I can easily fiddle with numbers.

Edited by Yerushalayim
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I prefer Ty's to Yeru's. With 8k infrastructure (which is quite high for this RP), I'd have 65 points.

 

That would then suffice for maybe one carrier, a battleship, three cruisers, five destroyers and five frigates. That's 15 ships!

My ship costs are also lower than his. :P And quite open to being tweaked, since I pulled them (and the points) outta my ass on my way to work this morning.

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I've edited my post to include a scale for folks above 20k infra, and to include an alternate scale for larger navies for everyone.

 

The alternate scale, for those who don't feel like scrolling-

0-5,00 Infra: 2 points per 100 Infra

5,000-10,000 Infra: 2 points per 200 Infra

10,000-15,000 Infra: 2 points per 500 Infra

15,000-20,000 Infra: 2 points per 1,000 Infra

20,000+ Infra: 2 points per 2,000 Infra

 

Edit: I believe Lynneth is our largest player, infra based. So the number of points he'd have in each system: 92 points in the lower point scale, and 184 points in the second scale. Either of which is sufficient to have a significant navy, though the secondary scale allows for superpower sized navies for larger players (while allowing hefty navies even for smaller players).

Edited by Yerushalayim
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