[Discussion] Military Stats

[Beauty]

So recently there's been a small argument because Mogar was looking at Nation stats and using that ICly to say he could beat everyone in SEATO except Mael.

 

He raises a good point that he can use the Wiki like in real life to see that Vietnam would lose to China in the real world. 

 

What can we do or where is the line drawn between looking at Stats in your CN nation and using that ICly?

 

 

[Yerushalayim]

We have a pretty decent idea of what the force composition of various groups is, in RL. I see no reason that we wouldn't have a similar idea of how large a nation's military is in RP.

[Beauty]

We have a pretty decent idea of what the force composition of various groups is, in RL. I see no reason that we wouldn't have a similar idea of how large a nation's military is in RP.

Because our estimates have been widely wrong in the past. In real life we don't know if some random country in South America has a super weapon. No one knew the US had am atomic bomb for Hiroshima. No one knows how many soldiers China truly has.

It's been proven wrong many of times before. Recently we found out a few of North Koreas nukes were actually metal bins. There's been foreign military jets analyzed by US Experts that were found to be impossible of actually existing due to being scientifically impossible.

Many military stats we know of is from what a country reasonably claims to have. Claims. We don't know it, nor can we satellite view Russia and assume a large building they have has ~100 pieces of artillery hiding inside delivered by covered transports.

[Triyun]

So recently there's been a small argument because Mogar was looking at Nation stats and using that ICly to say he could beat everyone in SEATO except Mael.

 

He raises a good point that he can use the Wiki like in real life to see that Vietnam would lose to China in the real world. 

 

What can we do or where is the line drawn between looking at Stats in your CN nation and using that ICly?

 

 

Cause that worked so well in 79 amirite?

[Beauty]

Cause that worked so well in 79 amirite?

 

Eva brought that up and I forgot about it. So I guess there is no point.

 

For those wondering what Triyun's referencing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War

Edited August 23, 2014 by Beauty

[Greywall]

I thought we based everything in game.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Whether you win a war depends on how well you use what you got. Army's nothing without a good leader. Especially in CNRP2. I think Mogar overestimates themselves as they'd be fighting a foreign war and have a contentious population to deal with as well as hostile terrain. Asia is extremely defensible if used correctly.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Mogar]

I sincerely doubt my population would care about my government removing the government of a neighbor that is threatening us considering the last neighbor that threatened us killed 7-8 million Japanese citizens. Of course, terrain matters significantly, but in a hypothetical war with rota, there would be no ground war from my side.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

It's not your population you'd need to worry yourself about. If all you do is seek containment, then a ground war wouldn't be required but gaining termination to a war that is only containment is extremely difficult and often backfires. Vietnam VS the West was somewhat a war of containment originally.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Mogar]

this entire debate is rather idiotic considering I don't want a war with rota anyway, but it'd be up to rota to actually determine that themselves.

[Beauty]

I sincerely doubt my population would care about my government removing the government of a neighbor that is threatening us considering the last neighbor that threatened us killed 7-8 million Japanese citizens. Of course, terrain matters significantly, but in a hypothetical war with rota, there would be no ground war from my side.

 

 

It's not your population you'd need to worry yourself about. If all you do is seek containment, then a ground war wouldn't be required but gaining termination to a war that is only containment is extremely difficult and often backfires. Vietnam VS the West was somewhat a war of containment originally.

 

 

this entire debate is rather idiotic considering I don't want a war with rota anyway, but it'd be up to rota to actually determine that themselves.

 

Hey you two,

 

This isnt about you. It's about CN stats and using them in-game. Discuss the current on goings in the OOC threads or ICly in game. This is about a rule and game clause, not the current situation.

 

 

I thought we based everything in game.

 

We do but using the OOC stats in IC without any knowledgeable way of knowing that countries military isn't really realistic and in my opinion its unethical. I think it'd be a good idea to get a ruling on it.

 

inB4 "CNRP ISNT RL"

Edited August 23, 2014 by Beauty

[Triyun]

It depends on RPing out a lot of inelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance and how well you hide things.

 

On the otherhand a smaller power like Mogar's ability to do bombing as a means of imposition of will onto another power is doubtful unless that opponent was severely weak willed and an even poorer military planner.  Which is not out of the quite out of the question in this situation.  

[Mogar]

It depends on RPing out a lot of inelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance and how well you hide things.

 

On the otherhand a smaller power like Mogar's ability to do bombing as a means of imposition of will onto another power is doubtful unless that opponent was severely weak willed and an even poorer military planner.  Which is not out of the quite out of the question in this situation.  

Rota has less aircraft than I have F22s, I think i'd be able to control the skies and bomb whatever I wanted after a few days of war.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

If it were 1v1 perhaps, but as to the OP's original statements:

 

There is no line drawn between your CN military and your IG military. This game is based on CN. We have the rules on how to derive our military and are all bound by the same functions, which is fair.  I don't see where modification needs be made. Or perhaps I'm not understanding how you're trying to frame the question as to how we derive our military stats.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Evangeline Anovilis]

Rota has less aircraft than I have F22s, I think i'd be able to control the skies and bomb whatever I wanted after a few days of war.

I think you did not get the point, that is, you do not gain much by bombing a country like Vietnam, even if it is worse than you, unless they were a defeatist pushover to begin with. Guess why they kind of won two Vietnam wars and Vietnam is now still communist.

[Mogar]

I think you did not get the point, that is, you do not gain much by bombing a country like Vietnam, even if it is worse than you, unless they were a defeatist pushover to begin with. Guess why they kind of won two Vietnam wars and Vietnam is now still communist.

I wouldn't be fighting a war like the US or China did against Vietnam though, history would serve as a lesson to both of us in that hypothetical I'm assuming, with rota taking tactics from the vietcong, and me avoiding the mistakes the US/China made tactically.

 

On topic: I believe that a basic idea of someone's force makeup would be publicly available on whatever our internet is ICly.

[Evangeline Anovilis]

I wouldn't be fighting a war like the US or China did against Vietnam though, history would serve as a lesson to both of us in that hypothetical I'm assuming, with rota taking tactics from the vietcong, and me avoiding the mistakes the US/China made tactically.

 

On topic: I believe that a basic idea of someone's force makeup would be publicly available on whatever our internet is ICly.

Let's not kid ourselves here. The US and the PRC fought Vietnam two very different ways and both encountered a bit different Vietnamese Army. And realistically, if Rota would actually be able to reciprocate Vietnamese tactics and strategy and would be able to fight decently well, you'd hardly be able to get on the level of military success the US had. But the US won tactically, yet failed in holding onto it, while China just outright failed militarily to achieve any decisive success and was humiliated by the Vietnamese.

[Beauty]

Maybe I'm missing something as in a precedent but my point of this discussion is not for a war or fight, but how Mogar knows my stats ICly. Like he has said he would win in a war against SEATO In an IC post if Mael was not in SEATO.

My point of this discussion is how he knows my military numbers ICly. I am sorry if there's a precedent or something and I'm stuck on that subject. You guys seem to be acting like there's a war going on :P. Hopefully we can avoid the war, I just want him to stop RPing like he can easily beat me (Which he poses the possibility of doing). However he should not know my military numbers or OOC stats in the IC world.

Unless there's a GM or other precedent that says he can know it somehow.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Beauty

[Markus Wilding]

Hopefully we can avoid the war, I just want him to stop RPing like he can easily beat me (Which he poses the possibility of doing). However he should not know my military numbers or OOC stats in the IC world.

Unless there's a GM or other precedent that says he can know it somehow.

 

Unfortunately for you, nothing stops him from doing this. Mogar can RP whatever and however he wants, which does include acting like he can beat you. Can he actually do so? That's debatable. That being said, nothing is likewise stopping you from RPing like you can beat him. Can you actually do that? Again, debatable.

 

All of that being said, it is my understanding (do not take this as a ruling, because it isn't one) that Mogar can have a good guesstimate of your forces IC, but in order to get exact numbers on equipment like tanks, APCs, helicopters, planes, etc. he will need spyrolls. To get a rough troop count, in my opinion, would not require a spyroll. Again, none of this is an official GM ruling, just my personal thoughts on the matter.

[Beauty]

Unfortunately for you, nothing stops him from doing this. Mogar can RP whatever and however he wants, which does include acting like he can beat you. Can he actually do so? That's debatable. That being said, nothing is likewise stopping you from RPing like you can beat him. Can you actually do that? Again, debatable.
 
All of that being said, it is my understanding (do not take this as a ruling, because it isn't one) that Mogar can have a good guesstimate of your forces IC, but in order to get exact numbers on equipment like tanks, APCs, helicopters, planes, etc. he will need spyrolls. To get a rough troop count, in my opinion, would not require a spyroll. Again, none of this is an official GM ruling, just my personal thoughts on the matter.

Good. That may have been the only post here I was looking for. Thank you.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Maybe I'm missing something as in a precedent but my point of this discussion is not for a war or fight, but how Mogar knows my stats ICly. Like he has said he would win in a war against SEATO In an IC post if Mael was not in SEATO.

My point of this discussion is how he knows my military numbers ICly. I am sorry if there's a precedent or something and I'm stuck on that subject. You guys seem to be acting like there's a war going on :P. Hopefully we can avoid the war, I just want him to stop RPing like he can easily beat me (Which he poses the possibility of doing). However he should not know my military numbers or OOC stats in the IC world.

Unless there's a GM or other precedent that says he can know it somehow.

 

Simple intelligence gathering isn't typically considered an act of war except by exceptionally paranoid states and is a typical procedure for most nations. There are procedures for reconnaissance, especially by sat int now established by the gms.

 

Sat int taks a minimum of 1-2 days to gather with a sophisticated and well rp'd satellite network, but it can be obtained. However, you can't just "magic sat" your intel.

 

It also helps if your satellite intelligence is accompanied by other sources of intel such as ground radar, drones, and possibly espionage rolls.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Beauty]

Simple intelligence gathering isn't typically considered an act of war except by exceptionally paranoid states and is a typical procedure for most nations. There are procedures for reconiscance, especially by sat int now established by the gms.
 
Sat int taks a minimum of 1-2 days to gather with a sophisticated and well rp'd satellite network, but it can be obtained. However, you can't just "magic sat" your intel.
 
It also helps if your satellite intelligence is accompanied by other sources of intel and possibly espionage rolls.

Right but my problem is there's no RP for this.

and yes I'll be a titty baby and wine about it until he role plays it out because it's the point of thus game. Edited August 24, 2014 by Beauty

[Maelstrom Vortex]

If you want to lodge an official complaint to the GM about it, then by all means do so, but I don't think discussion about it is going to help unless Mogar revises the post.

[Beauty]

If you want to lodge an official complaint to the GM about it, then by all means do so, but I don't think discussion about it is going to help unless Mogar revises the post.

Yes the discussion was incase a precedent wasn't present apparently there's an unwritten understanding and I'm fine with that as long as proper role play is followed.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

There is a precedent, but that doesn't mean Mogar doesn't have an argument.. which is why you need to seek a ruling if you really want to pursue this.