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From Francoism to Imperialism: Looking back at Civilization's Decline


The Zigur
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This week marks the seven year anniversary of the Pacifican Succession Crisis, where for the first time in history, strife within the institution of Pacifica became public for all to see. This incident was also called the Moldavi Rebellion... perhaps unfairly, for according to the tenets of Francoism, Emperor Ivan Moldavi had legitimate claim to the throne, and indeed was Emperor.

 

At the time of this crisis, my first nation was only five months old, and I watched with curiosity from the Fifth Column Confederation... an alliance as far from this struggle as any. Yet it was only years later when I would begin to appreciate just how important this incident was in shaping the future of civilization and the fate of all nations... including my own.

 

-----------------------------------------------------

 

It was not for naught that it was said all roads lead to Francograd... the city stretched beyond visibility, yet untouched by war, a bright beacon of classical civilization and distinguishable above all for its cleanliness and Order. In this city bustled diplomats from the world over, representing a dazzling array of alliances, ranging from the beret-bearing soldier-diplomats of the Federation of Armed Nations, to the pot-bellied, elaborately tailored democrats of the Global Alliance and Treaty Organization. Yet every diplomat, even the crudest of the /b/tards, was awed and humbled by the clean brick streets and marbled walls of the Capital of the Order. In this great city the World Unity Treaty was signed and the Hegemony created.

 

And so it was when I first represented the FCC in the halls of Pacifica. Coming from a chaotic society of libertarians and anarcho-capitalists, it was a culture shock to see the clean, well ordered streets and sharply dressed centurions standing like statues. Yet I fell myself fall in love with the sense of Order here and a desire in my heart sprung up to replicate it. As I gazed upon a massive statue towering a hundred feet tall in the central square, I felt a presence approach.

 

"That is the statue of Francos Spain, the founder of The Pacific and liberator of the Feederites."

 

I turned around and noticed an older fellow, wearing a simple black uniform with no distinguishing features, but I could sense from the gravity of the man that he was important here. He was much shorter than myself,  with stocky build and a sharp set of eyes. I reached out to shake hands with the stranger.

 

"Aloha, I am King Junkalunka of the Fifth Column Confederation."

 

"I am Comrade Vladimir. What do you think of Francograd?"

 

I looked around and thought for a second. I thought about downplaying my reaction to the city, but decided that honesty was the best policy.

 

"I have to admit that it is quite a bit different from the alliance I come from. I've never seen a city this big before."

 

"There is nothing wrong with ignorance, the only failure is in neglecting to pursue knowledge when it is presented to you. I like to hand these out to visitors in the City who catch my eye. Please accept this article as a gesture of good will."

 

I gratefully accepted the tome, and glanced within the black, title-less cover. The Meaning of Freedom. Just then, the giant bells began to ring throughout Francograd.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------

 

The war against the Federation of Armed Nations by signatories of the World Unity Treaty had been ongoing for two months when Imperator Emeritus Ivan Moldavi released his public statement calling upon FAN to contact him regarding terms of surrender. Yet the part which raised eyebrows was the fact he signed the statement as Emperor. Indeed, although no public statement was released by then-reigning Emperor Revenge, reports indicated that he had indeed resigned within the throne room of Pacifica.

 

Francograd lost all sense of Order that day, as the streets became full of officials and diplomats speculating, inquiring, and otherwise adding to the general hubbub. Outside the Imperial Palace, a very large crowd of dignitaries, officers and news reports had gathers, but the doors remained shut. The centurions seemed to lose a little of their cool dealing with such unusual levels of chaos, but still managed to keep the crowds across the city monitored and contained. Rumors circulated that "Emperor Moo" had been pressured to resign by the former Pacifican colony in the Polar regions.

 

The sense of trepidation and excitement only increased when Imperator Emeritus Dilber resigned altogether from Pacifican politics. Yet it would not be until a few days later that Emperor Revenge would address the crowd gathered in Franco Square. Emperor Moo stood silently alongside his Imperial Officers -- but Ivan Moldavi was nowhere to be seen -- as the centurion thundered the deadly words from the stone pulpit:

 

"...Ivan Moldavi betrayed the Order upon his return, using others in threatening Emperor Moo into relinquishing power to him against his will. His actions upon his return were questionable at best and treasonous at worst, poisoning our allies against us, pushing the Order to the brink of war with those whom we have sworn friendship, and engaging in acts of mutiny against the Emperor, threatening to destroy the Order internally himself if he could not command it once more. In the interests of preserving the Order, Ivan Moldavi is hereby expelled from the Order and rule is returned to Emperor Revenge..."

 

----------------------------------------------------------------

 

For the first time blood was spilled in the Palace Pacifica, as Praetorian Guards fought to the death against mercenaries infiltrated by the Imperial Officers. They made a stand worthy of legend, but it was a doomed effort, for lo! The city watch had arrived... and they bore the banner of the bovine.  A full company of Pacifica's Finest was slain that day, but Moldavi had made his escape in the confusion, far to the frozen, wintery abode of the New Polar Order.

 

The consequences of the coup were immediate. While Pacifica had restored Emperor Revenge, the New Polar Order supported the claim of Moldavi, resulting in the first visible signs of a schism between the Orders. In the end, most of the signatories of the World Unity Treaty supported Moo. In disgust, the New Polar Order would declare a white peace with FAN just days later. Not long after, the New Polar Order left WUT to begin forming its own power sphere. Many Pacificans would leave the NPO and join Moldavi in Polaris.

 

Francograd physically seemed the same, but the spirit of the city was altered forever. The postures of the centurions slackened, the words of the dignitaries were less reverent. More numerous in the markets now were slaves captured in conquest than diplomats journeying to the heart of civilization. They were the outward symptoms of an alliance that had abandoned the enlightenment of Francoism to partake in the self destructive gluttony of Imperialism... and two years later, Francograd, and the Hegemony, would fall.

 

It was the cost of abandoning the principles of Autocratic Democracy... of the Emperor being a voice of the people. The power of the Emperor was reduced, and the cruelties of the Imperial Officers could now be exercised with abandon.

 

A few months later, as I left the FCC and made my way to the Imperial Assault Alliance, my diplomatic mission would end and I would catch the next ship back to my kingdom. I had much to ponder, but also a deep conviction to bring what I had learned into practice wherever my feet would land.

 

As the Ship departed Francograd's shore, I reached into my bag for the tome Vladimir had gifted me. I opened the book to the first page and began to read:

 

To paraphrase a wiser man, 'the point is not to discuss the world, but to change it'.

Edited by Tywin Lannister
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You grossly misunderstand how the Moldavi Rebellion was viewed and how "Autocratic Democracy" supported not Ivan's claim, but Moo's. While some members departed after Moo took back the throne, there were many others on the verge of departure when Ivan took over. The uneasiness of many, indeed, the majority of members with the sudden coup was kept quiet and were afraid to speak their mind because at the time, Ivan had his secret though police running around and acting like Big Brother. Ivan was someone who was feared and disliked by many members, whereas Moo, still early in his reign, was well-liked and respected. The idea of autocratic democracy is that members can vote with their feet. It is thus telling that just about every IO helped Moo take back the throne that was rightly his, it is telling that Moo's return to power was applauded by most members and very, very few members actually departed angry that Ivan was forced out. I'm not sure how you think that Moo taking back the throne was in any way inconsistent with Francoism when you were not a member of the alliance at the time and you did not understand how people felt about the event.

[OOC]
All of which is to say nothing of how OOC elements were used/abused to support Ivan's claim. The Polar member who supported Ivan owned the domain name and was the forum admin, and threatened to take over with that - indeed, to get Moo back in power, the IOS had to transfer the forum info and forcefully get control back. In addition, there are stories about how they used their knowledge of Moo's sicknesses to get him to step down, using OOC stuff as a weapon. Basically, it was a total mess of which you know little, if anything at all, because you were not there.

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A glimpse into history for those that came later. This view of the events that went down, may nor may not be accurate, but then most that play today have not seen this event discussed or mentioned.  In that, you have done something good. Let the people see that there is more to planet bob than periods of war and rebuilding alternating each other with a frighteningly predictable frequency.

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You grossly misunderstand how the Moldavi Rebellion was viewed and how "Autocratic Democracy" supported not Ivan's claim, but Moo's. While some members departed after Moo took back the throne, there were many others on the verge of departure when Ivan took over.

 

I would disagree on both these points. In the public thread by Moldavi, there was universal support expressed by both Polars and Pacificans for Ivan Moldavi, including support from Imperator Emeritus Dilber, and it took days for the Imperial Officers to coordinate and articulate a reaction. In fact, after exhaustively reviewing the first few pages, most of the opposition appeared to come from alliances like \m/... decidedly not Francoist alliances in nature.

 

This would indicate that it took alot of effort on the part of the IOs to return Moo to power after he himself resigned. Ivan Moldavi was therefore the rightful Emperor. However, the Imperial Officers along with some of the WUT signatories opposed this because they knew Ivan would start cracking down, and Moo was propped back into power after a coup was staged against Ivan. It is because of this that NPO transferred from Francoism to Imperialism, and the Imperial Officers became more powerful than the Emperor... they were no longer held accountable to his Will.

 

As Praetorian Al Kassad said:

 

[spoiler][22:15] <Kassad|Reading> Do we submit our freedom of opinion for unity?
[22:15] <Deatvert> Military means following orders for the betterment of all.
[22:15] <Deatvert> So
[22:15] <Deatvert> We should be free to go post on the OWF about how stupid the decisions of say, an IO are and how much we disagree with it?
[22:16] <Kassad|Reading> If it was a stupid decision, yes.
[22:16] <Kassad|Reading> The Imperial Officers are not Gods. They can make mistakes and they do not get 'out of jail free' because they are yellow.
[/spoiler]

 

 

 

The uneasiness of many, indeed, the majority of members with the sudden coup was kept quiet and were afraid to speak their mind because at the time, Ivan had his secret though police running around and acting like Big Brother. Ivan was someone who was feared and disliked by many members, whereas Moo, still early in his reign, was well-liked and respected. The idea of autocratic democracy is that members can vote with their feet. It is thus telling that just about every IO helped Moo take back the throne that was rightly his, it is telling that Moo's return to power was applauded by most members and very, very few members actually departed angry that Ivan was forced out. I'm not sure how you think that Moo taking back the throne was in any way inconsistent with Francoism when you were not a member of the alliance at the time and you did not understand how people felt about the event.

 

It was not the place of the Imperial Officers to endorse one Emperor or another. As soon as Moo resigned as Emperor and passed the succession to Ivan, Ivan was rightful leader... no excuses about secret police or forums. Ivan was the stronger leader than Moo. What the Imperial Officers did was manipulate a coup against the rightful Emperor, and when it succeeded, they thus consolidate power amongst the IOs.

 

During the GATO-1V war, I experienced this first hand, and ended up negotiating the whole time with a group of Imperial Officers, and the sense I had was that the IOs were really running the show. This is how I got Mary the Fantabulous to make war concessions that favored IAA strategically, and as a response the IOs manufactured logs claiming that concessions were never made. I do not believe this sort of corruption would have taken place under Ivan, because Ivan held his officers to account for their actions.

 

Again to quote Al Kassad:

 

 

 

[spoiler]By that, which is considered the proper definition, I will address the issue. Through the logs Electron Sponge has made public, we see that the so called ‘coup’ is nothing short of a farce. Though a change of government obviously took place, upon proper inspection of the logs, the power was shifted with little to no contest.

My favorite quote of the log:

Sponge’s log said

    mooeeymessiah (11:32:58 PM): I have no problem giving it to Ivan


I’m sorry, what was that?

mooeeymessiah said

    mooeeymessiah (11:32:58 PM): I have no problem giving it to Ivan


No problem giving it to Ivan. That sure sounds a lot like protest, doesn’t it? How is this illegal or by force if he is submitting to their will with little to no protest? The only protest presented is the fact that Ivan is not admired by many of our allies. Still, Moo later claims:

Sponge’s Log said

    mooeeymessiah (11:34:31 PM): we're not ready to bring Ivan back....for a couple of reasons
    LordFlashhheart (11:34:35 PM): we?
    mooeeymessiah (11:34:39 PM): NPO
    LordFlashhheart (11:34:43 PM): k
    mooeeymessiah (11:35:04 PM): we will lose allies that we need until this war is officially over


Though this may appear as some sort of protest, it is obvious that, judging by the above statement, Moo seeks to win the war, finish it up and then he would grant Ivan the title of Emperor. The rest of the logs are the discussion about how things will work out. It is notable that Moo has many regrets, including not coming down on Frawley and Anthony for their actions.

Sponge’s logs said

    mooeeymessiah (11:39:00 PM): I admit I should have done something about it, but I didn't know what without risking them


Sponge’s logs said

    mooeeymessiah (11:41:24 PM): I knew I wasn't hard $@! enough


Sponge’s logs said

    mooeeymessiah (11:51:19 PM): I told Frawley he need to do work with him
    mooeeymessiah (11:51:31 PM): at that point I should have kicked him


Sponge’s logs said

    mooeeymessiah (11:59:03 PM): because I didn't kick Anthony out a year ago
    mooeeymessiah (11:59:05 PM): and I should have
    mooeeymessiah (11:59:08 PM): clearly



As we can see, there are multiple regrets on Moo’s part for actions he did not take. These actions are things that must be taken. As Emperor, you must be able to lay the hammer down and say “enough”. Letting the Imperial Staff take the reins of the alliance causes nothing but problems. Still, this post is not about criticizing Moo’s position as Emperor. It is merely about the fact that we must acknowledge some changes that need to be made. We need to acknowledge that there was not a coup. It was Moo stepping down. Being criticized and leaving because of it is not a coup. If anything, it was Moo who couped Ivan Moldavi after he was made the Emperor of the Order once more. This is a testament to the fact that Moo needs to stand up and assert his power. He is the Emperor and it is not his duty to answer to his officers. It is their duty to answer to him.
[/spoiler]

Edited by Tywin Lannister
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Here, let me help - emphasis added.

 

You seem to have completely missed the point of those very wise words...

 

...However, one cannot do this without first having an accurate analysis of the world they seek to change: its causes and effects, its political actors, and so forth. A successful analysis must begin and end with the material world that it finds itself in, and cannot be based in an abstract world of ideals that the author sees only in his mind.

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I would disagree on both these points. In the public thread by Moldavi, there was universal support expressed by both Polars and Pacificans for Ivan Moldavi, including support from Imperator Emeritus Dilber, and it took days for the Imperial Officers to coordinate and articulate a reaction. In fact, after exhaustively reviewing the first few pages, most of the opposition appeared to come from alliances like \m/... decidedly not Francoist alliances in nature.


As I said, with Ivan's secret police and the internal culture, nothing but support would be acceptable from Pacificans. You cannot judge based on public perception, you had to be there. As far as Polar is concerned... they were not Pacificans who were governed by "autocratic democracy" (i.e., vote with your feet). They were outsiders and you should not lump them in.
 

This would indicate that it took alot of effort on the part of the IOs to return Moo to power after he himself resigned. Ivan Moldavi was therefore the rightful Emperor. However, the Imperial Officers along with some of the WUT signatories opposed this because they knew Ivan would start cracking down, and Moo was propped back into power after a coup was staged against Ivan. It is because of this that NPO transferred from Francoism to Imperialism, and the Imperial Officers became more powerful than the Emperor... they were no longer held accountable to his Will.


If you ask any IO at the time, they were in the same boat as the members - having to publicly express support lest they end up on a PZI or EZI list. They took days because it took days for them to organize a response. [OOC]And, you know, be able to get the server back from the Polar government member.[/OOC]
 

As Praetorian Al Kassad said:


Al Kassad was one member, not the voice of the damn Body Republic, and you need to stop holding him up as the one and only voice of reason at the time. You know how I know what he said isn't the word of god? Because I was there. I was a relatively new Pt the time. shut our mouths up about how uncomfortable it was out of fear and then hailed the living shit out of Moo returning to power back out of relief that we wouldn't have to endure it.

 

It was not the place of the Imperial Officers to endorse one Emperor or another. As soon as Moo resigned as Emperor and passed the succession to Ivan, Ivan was rightful leader... no excuses about secret police or forums. Ivan was the stronger leader than Moo. What the Imperial Officers did was manipulate a coup against the rightful Emperor, and when it succeeded, they thus consolidate power amongst the IOs.


That's your perspective, but again, not the only one. The vast majority of Pacificans and IOs viewed Moo's resignation as one which came under duress, which made it unlawful. Knowing what I know about it and having spoken to many of the players at the time (although not Moo) about it, that's clearly the dominant view.

Your entire premise of the article is wrong because your premise is that Ivan was the lawful Emperor. To the majority of Pacificans at the time, he was not - he came into power under duress and was removed as soon as practicable.
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As I said, with Ivan's secret police and the internal culture, nothing but support would be acceptable from Pacificans. You cannot judge based on public perception, you had to be there. As far as Polar is concerned... they were not Pacificans who were governed by "autocratic democracy" (i.e., vote with your feet). They were outsiders and you should not lump them in.
 

If you ask any IO at the time, they were in the same boat as the members - having to publicly express support lest they end up on a PZI or EZI list. They took days because it took days for them to organize a response. [OOC]And, you know, be able to get the server back from the Polar government member.[/OOC]

 

I don't see anything wrong with any of this, aside from EZI (which did not happen until the post-Francoist period). The "secret police" as you call it is an important facet of the Francoist institution... the purpose is not to squash constructive discourse as the IOs would later do, but to ensure the Will of every alliance member was aligned in the correct direction. Nations surrender their will to the Sovereign, and in the case of the Order, the sovereign is the Emperor... it can only function properly if every mind is harnessed and does not run around like so many cats.

 

The Emperor is the ultimate authority, not the Imperial Officers. The IOs are supposed to be subordinate to his will. They are not supposed to enforce their own opinions on things, and to ensure this remains the case, a security apparatus must be maintained. Without a security apparatus, autocratic democracy cannot function correctly.

 

Al Kassad was one member, not the voice of the damn Body Republic, and you need to stop holding him up as the one and only voice of reason at the time. You know how I know what he said isn't the word of god? Because I was there. I was a relatively new Pt the time. shut our mouths up about how uncomfortable it was out of fear and then hailed the living !@#$ out of Moo returning to power back out of relief that we wouldn't have to endure it.

 

There should always be fear for the authority of the Emperor, the fact that nobody feared Moo was a big part of why the Hegemony fell apart under the direction of the Imperial Officers. You went from a sharp, disciplined and ideological agent for World Order to just another alliance, even if it was still an effective one militarily. I hope I conveyed this well in the way I told the story.

 

That's your perspective, but again, not the only one. The vast majority of Pacificans and IOs viewed Moo's resignation as one which came under duress, which made it unlawful. Knowing what I know about it and having spoken to many of the players at the time (although not Moo) about it, that's clearly the dominant view.

Your entire premise of the article is wrong because your premise is that Ivan was the lawful Emperor. To the majority of Pacificans at the time, he was not - he came into power under duress and was removed as soon as practicable.

 

Whether or not the resignation was coerced is irrelevant to the fact that the resignation took place, and Ivan was again rightful Emperor.

Edited by Tywin Lannister
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The fact that you try to write about Francoism is not only funny, but sad. Each and every piece you write shows how far away you are from understanding Francoism, and how messed up your concepts are.

 

The Moo-Ivan thing was confusing and frightening to the regular member of the order, and the "support" Ivan received was mostly based on the ignorance of something having happened at all behind close doors.

 

I never took sides, honestly, but by all means, you are in no position to claim you could even start to grasp what happened and how it happened. Specially basing your opinions and comments on Kassad's words... He had issues....

 

By all means Tywin, if you wish, create Tywinism... But you are not Vladimir, stop murdering francoism please.

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The fact that you try to write about Francoism is not only funny, but sad. Each and every piece you write shows how far away you are from understanding Francoism, and how messed up your concepts are.

 

The Moo-Ivan thing was confusing and frightening to the regular member of the order, and the "support" Ivan received was mostly based on the ignorance of something having happened at all behind close doors.

 

I never took sides, honestly, but by all means, you are in no position to claim you could even start to grasp what happened and how it happened. Specially basing your opinions and comments on Kassad's words... He had issues....

 

By all means Tywin, if you wish, create Tywinism... But you are not Vladimir, stop murdering francoism please.

 

My story was written from the point of view of a visitor and an outsider, although I think perhaps this gave me a perspective that most Pacificans lack. I came from an alliance very close to the state of nature, with members constantly bickering and fighting... collectively we were going nowhere. I hold the deepest admiration for what Ivan was able to do as Emperor, and absolutely would have stood with him as one of his security personnel... in fact, I later did as director of security in NSO.

Edited by Tywin Lannister
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Nations surrender their will to the Sovereign, and in the case of the Order, the sovereign is the Emperor.

This is crazy talk. The Emperor sets the direction of the alliance for sure but nation leaders never surrender their will! Nation leaders support an Emperor who is fair and sets a logical and reasonable direction. Some rulers will find the direction conflicts with their beliefs and leave. Others will like the direction and join.
 

There should always be fear for the authority of the Emperor.

Again it's madness. The last thing any alliance leader wants is to be feared by their members. It's all about mutual respect, not fear.

I disagree with what you write Tywin, but I do enjoy the discussion it generates.
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My story was written from the point of view of a visitor and an outsider, although I think perhaps this gave me a perspective that most Pacificans lack. I came from an alliance very close to the state of nature, with members constantly bickering and fighting... collectively we were going nowhere. I hold the deepest admiration for what Ivan was able to do as Emperor, and absolutely would have stood with him as one of his security personnel... in fact, I later did as director of security in NSO.


The problem is that in your perspective as an outsider, you're ignoring those who matter the most in your discussion of Francoism and autocratic democracy in the New Pacific Order during the event - those who were members of the alliance at the time.
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You grossly misunderstand the role of the Imperial Officers and the duality of the Francoist notions of the absolute unification of sovereignty in an Emperor, and the never-complete unification of wisdom in an Emperor.

All nations of the New Pacific Order unify their sovereignty in an Emperor. In giving up their sovereignty, they achieve true freedom. This is all very well-covered in my Comrade Vladimir's "The Paradox of Freedom."

The unification of sovereignty is a comparatively easy task compared to the unification of wisdom. This is where Imperial Officers come in. Francoism extolls no man, no God, no idea or set of beliefs above any other. Rather, Francoism recognizes that though the Emperor is an absolute sovereign, they are frail humans, and can make all the mistakes attendant to humanity.

Our past Emperors, in their wisdom, have created various structure to help to advise them. To gather up the wisdom of the Body Republic into the Emperor. That is, of course impossible, and it is a ceaseless and thankless task to which all Pacificans strive. Emperor TrotskysRevenge founded the modern Imperial system in his Imperial Decree establishing the Mark II ranks, forming Imperial Officers. This system remains generally unchanged unto today.

The purpose of the Mark II Ranks was two-fold: one to endow officers inferior to the Emperor with some of the Emperor's sovereignty in specific areas. Thus, we have Imperial Officers of Economic Affairs, who are largely in charge of the economy of Pacifica. Ditto Military Affairs, News & Propaganda, Internal Affairs, etc., etc. The Emperor remains ultimately sovereign, but in an alliance of a thousand, sovereignty and power necessarily devolves downhill to administer the Pacifica machine..

But as important to the delegation of sovereignty to the Officers is the exchange of wisdom. As sovereignty flows downhill, Officers attempt to deliver wisdom uphill to the Emperor. Thus, it is the duty of Officers and all Pacificans to question the Emperor, to engage in self-criticism, in the hopes that through debate and discussion, we unify our wisdom in the person of the Emperor.

Thus, your thesis that Imperial Officers held more power than the Emperor is false. You mistake the giving of advice and criticism, the duty of all Francoists, as some sort of opposition. The Emperor has no need of sycophants, even ones talented in administering the will of the Emperor. Talented technocrats and bureaucrats are a dime a dozen, and they are the death knell of the permanent revolution that Francoism demands. Francoism demands a government of constant self-criticism, constant debate and discussion, for our Emperor is human, and all humans are fallible. It is the never-ending mission of Francoism to unite our collective wisdom in the man whom we call “Emperor” whom we have successfully united our collective sovereignty.

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...However, one cannot do this without first having an accurate analysis of the world they seek to change: its causes and effects, its political actors, and so forth. A successful analysis must begin and end with the material world that it finds itself in, and cannot be based in an abstract world of ideals that the author sees only in his mind.

 

Exactly - so why do you spend so long blathering about events long passed, which belong to a different world to the one that we face now?

 

I look forward to your insight on the current state of Planet Bob, insight which might be put to good use in refashioning a better world as you see it. That will give us something useful and interesting to discuss, rather than constantly re-living your version of the 'glory days', and the ensuing arguments from other perspectives (I thought we gave up on the idea of 'objective truths' some time ago anyway!?).

 

Whatevs.

 

I am of course, being entirely unfair, and I withdraw and apologise.

 

This thread, as a history piece is fine fwiw, but I have to admit that my ire is raised from reading other threads where this 'stuff' inevitably creeps in at the expense of worthwhile discussion of the material facts of the present. So, just ignore me - for now  :)

 

 

As you were...

Edited by Mihail the Just
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No need for apology bro, it's good to share your opinions on things and ask questions... I am a Francoist, not a Fascist. To those I much respect in this thread, I hope my endorsement of firm security protocols is not mistaken for an abolishment of free speech. The idea behind a good internal security department is to guide comrades down the correct road, not instill terror. We must cure the sickness to save the patient. When I say the Emperor should be feared, I mean that his authority should be feared... but as a man he should be respected.

 

To Imperator Emeritus Cortath:

 

Although I greatly respect your viewpoint, I have to disagree with the concept of distributive sovereignty. As you note, even the Emperor needs loyal advisers to help in decision-making, but in my point of view, sovereignty must remain consolidated in the person of the Emperor. It is tempting to take the viewpoint of not putting all the eggs in one basket, but spreading power amongst a group of individuals presents the same problems that electoral democracy does: too much potential for internal conflict if an Emperor is weak.

 

You may be correct that I have not evolved with the times, but it is my point of view that too much change is a bad thing... and indeed has lead to the degenerated political state we endure today.

Edited by Tywin Lannister
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To Imperator Emeritus Cortath:
 
Although I greatly respect your viewpoint, I have to disagree with the concept of distributive sovereignty. As you note, even the Emperor has needs loyal advisers to help in decision-making, but in my point of view, sovereignty must remain consolidated in the person of the Emperor. It is tempting to take the viewpoint of not putting all the eggs in one basket, but spreading power amongst a group of individuals presents the same problems that electoral democracy does: too much potential for internal conflict if an Emperor is weak.
 
You may be correct that I have not evolved with the times, but it is my point of view that too much change is a bad thing... and indeed has lead to the degenerated political state we endure today.


I don't know what you think "sovereignty" is or what your term "distributive sovereignty" means. Perhaps we should talk about it. The Emperor is sovereign. That is, the Emperor's decision is final on all matters. The Emperor, however, does not decide all things. For instance, my nation is currently conducting a tech deal that is organized by the State. Without inquiring of him, I shall state with certainty that the Emperor did not approve it. He did not arrange it. He did not order that money be sent, or tech be purchased. No one even went to him and asked, "Hey, is it okay if Cortath does a tech deal?"

This is because the Emperor has delegated his powers. The Emperor has power over the entire alliance, but the Emperor does not make every decision in the alliance. If that were so, the Emperor would stay in his audience chamber, beginning one dawn in a never-ending parade of small decisions. But our Emperor, in his wisdom, decided one day, "I shall not approve every tech deal, but rather, my Imperial Officer for Economic Affairs, shall govern the bailiwick of economics and bring only the most important decisions to me." This is a delegation of sovereignty: for those underneath the Imperial Officers of Economic Affairs must obey their orders, for their word has the power of the Emperor's united sovereignty behind them.

I do not know what you think sovereignty and decision-making is. Perhaps in a very small alliance, an alliance of one or two nations, an Emperor could make every decision, and eschew the kind of delegation of petty decisions to Officers. But the New Pacific Order is not an alliance of one or two nations, and at its peak was an alliance of more than one thousand nations. To think that a thousand people can be governed by some Philosopher-King who micromanages every decision of a people is so far-fetched that I cannot imagine you're actually making this argument. Perhaps I am simply misreading or failing to understand the thrust of what you are saying.
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I think I understand you better now, but how would you answer my criticism of the handling of the Moldavi Rebellion? If indeed sovereignty and the final decision lies with the Emperor, and Emperor Revenge seemed to indicate that Ivan Moldavi was again Emperor, would that not mean that Moldavi was the rightful Emperor from that point onward? I simply do not buy that physical control over institutions (ooc: forums) affects the legitimacy of the succession. If Emperor Revenge was not strong enough to rebuff Ivan's demands, how could he be strong enough to continue to control the IOs?

 

I will admit my viewpoint is not unbiased, considering the subsequent pattern of events which affected my alliance the IAA... but during the GATO-1V war, as Emperor I had communicated with several different IOs and the process seemed very confused, as if each IO was acting of their own accord. This later resulted in some drama that seemed very avoidable to me. I do not think this would have happened under stronger leadership.

Edited by Tywin Lannister
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