Limitless Nexus Recognition of Hostilities

[Jack Layton]

 

My understanding from Meth was that Kashmir was going to let him use Stonewall against Rey and take their vengeance after. My understanding from Kashmir was they expected Meth to arrange ridiculous reps or abandon SW14. Unfortunately when the two primary parties in a negotiation are reading from different playbooks, the situation can get squirmy. 

 

It has been conveyed repeatedly to Methrage that SirWilliam explicitly asked for 16 hours to confer with the rest of Kashmir as to whether that agreement was acceptable. He knows this. The quotes have been posted here over and over again. During those 16 hours, another Kashmir nation attacked stonewall as well. Methrage, believing the agreement had already been in place before Kashmir had actually agreed to it, took this as some sort of violation. And then he drafted a declaration of war and explicitly attacked Kashmir and aided other nations in his alliance in preparation to attack us further.

 

Our issue was that he was harbouring stonewall, who Methrage has already acknowledged is a nuclear-armed rogue. We have always left the door open to negotiation. One party has declared war and it wasn't us. We went after an acknowledged rogue. We did not attack anyone else within LN.

[SirWilliam]

My understanding from Meth was that Kashmir was going to let him use Stonewall against Rey and take their vengeance after.

Where are you getting this stuff from? :facepalm:
 
(I mean, I know Methrage, but given the numerous clarifications and his failure to comprehend them I can't fathom how you're taking his word at face value.)
 

See SW's statements earlier regarding negotiations between Methrage and Kashmir.

 
Yes, please.

[Sephiroth]

 

It has been conveyed repeatedly to Methrage that SirWilliam explicitly asked for 16 hours to confer with the rest of Kashmir as to whether that agreement was acceptable. He knows this. The quotes have been posted here over and over again. During those 16 hours, another Kashmir nation attacked stonewall as well. Methrage, believing the agreement had already been in place before Kashmir had actually agreed to it, took this as some sort of violation. And then he drafted a declaration of war and explicitly attacked Kashmir and aided other nations in his alliance in preparation to attack us further.

 

Our issue was that he was harbouring stonewall, who Methrage has already acknowledged is a nuclear-armed rogue. We have always left the door open to negotiation. One party has declared war and it wasn't us. We went after an acknowledged rogue. We did not attack anyone else within LN.

Once stonewall joined Limitless Nexus, he was no longer a rogue. He was part of an alliance. If you guys had a problem with him, you guys could of negotiated with me before attacking. Attacking first while ignoring ongoing negotiations for you guys not to do that was unacceptable.

[Kilroy]

Sigrun as long as I've been here you've been a respectable fella. I can understand your wanting to pay a debt you owe. I'm the same way. But at the same time you should try to empathise with our POV. He was our what most would call MoD then went crazy and went all nuke happy. Methrage then attempted to shelter him under his AA while we were comtemplating our next move. It's a crappy situation for everyone involved.

 

Methrage, you may not have known what a sleezy guy stonewall is when you decided to use him to settle your vendetta against Neo Uruk. By now though you know full well what kind of bollocks he's pullled and that we are fully within our rights to go after him. You need to pull your head out of your rectum and realize he's using you much like he used us. Personally I'm not the warring type. I know, some kasmiri I am eh? But stoney deserves everything we are sending his way and then some for the actions he's pulled against us. You should see that he's simply not worth the trouble and cut him loose. By protecting him you're just announcing that your alliance is nothing but a haven for rogues and crooks. You can be better than this.

[Jack Layton]

Once stonewall joined Limitless Nexus, he was no longer a rogue. He was part of an alliance. If you guys had a problem with him, you guys could of negotiated with me before attacking. Attacking first while ignoring ongoing negotiations for you guys not to do that was unacceptable.

 

Joining an alliance does not mean we magically forget all our grievances. We did try to negotiate with you. Instead of waiting the 16 hours that was requested, you jumped the gun and declared war. And by that token, your conflict with Rey should end because he's also in an alliance that has protection from War Jesus. If you have a problem with him, then you can negotiate that with us.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Jack Layton

[WorldConqueror]

Once stonewall joined Limitless Nexus, he was no longer a rogue. He was part of an alliance. If you guys had a problem with him, you guys could of negotiated with me before attacking. Attacking first while ignoring ongoing negotiations for you guys not to do that was unacceptable.

That's not how it works at all, anyone who has been here as long as you knows this. He is a rogue until released by the offended party. You chose to escalate the situation rather than finalize negotiations.

[denkimon]

I said it was fine for you guys to send Rey aid, as long as you didn't care about aid being sent to stonewall during the fight. That you guys chose to send aid to Rey, have 3 nations declare on stonewall and try threatening people into not sending aid to stonewall to balance things out is what I have issue with.

You keep changing what upsets you.

 

Your first sentence- Has Kashmir attacked you because of aid to stonewall? No. But you have done the opposite in attacking us.

 

The second sentence- You are commingling separate issues intentionally to serve whatever it is you hope to accomplish here. You KNEW we were coming for Stonewall because he was a rogue. We warned you and you tried to demand stonewall's release- something I might add, we had every right to deny. Why you can't respect that, given your anger at Rey for attacking truly baffles me. I'm pretty sure his 200 NS of damage pales to what stonewall did to Kashmir with his absconding of 200 mill, plus his repeated nuclear attacks on us, but I digress.

 

And how you even get to full-on nuclear war, in less than 24-hours, without some real effort at negotiations- and no, "I sent some of your members aid randomly to get a cease fire" is not negotiation, it's a gimmick.

 

Come on.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

Sigrun can be stubborn and principled, but I think we all are. Just don't go into talking with the assumption that might makes right and you can generally attain a favourable situation.

 

This is true and I urge you Kashmiri to listen to him. I may not come in 100% on your side, but you have my symapthy, and I would much rather negotiate than fight (admittedly, only because of the stonewall14 connection.)

 

Sigrun as long as I've been here you've been a respectable fella. I can understand your wanting to pay a debt you owe. I'm the same way. But at the same time you should try to empathise with our POV. He was our what most would call MoD then went crazy and went all nuke happy. Methrage then attempted to shelter him under his AA while we were comtemplating our next move. It's a crappy situation for everyone involved.

 

Methrage, you may not have known what a sleezy guy stonewall is when you decided to use him to settle your vendetta against Neo Uruk. By now though you know full well what kind of bollocks he's pullled and that we are fully within our rights to go after him. You need to pull your head out of your rectum and realize he's using you much like he used us. Personally I'm not the warring type. I know, some kasmiri I am eh? But stoney deserves everything we are sending his way and then some for the actions he's pulled against us. You should see that he's simply not worth the trouble and cut him loose. By protecting him you're just announcing that your alliance is nothing but a haven for rogues and crooks. You can be better than this.

 

It is  a crappy situation, absolutely. To be fair, at the absolute minimum, Kashmir needs to give Methrage as much time as they took themselves to understand what they were dealing with. So how long did serial aid-scammer/deserter stonewall14 shelter on the Kashmir AA?

 

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Sephiroth]

 

Joining an alliance does not mean we magically forget all our grievances. We did try to negotiate with you. Instead of waiting the 16 hours that was requested, you jumped the gun and declared war. And by that token, your conflict with Rey should end because he's also in an alliance that has protection from War Jesus. If you have a problem with him, then you can negotiate that with us.

While negotiating with your leader, the agreement in progress was no new wars were to be declared beyond the 2 who had already been declared. Instead of speaking with me and saying we need an additional guy attacking him, you had another nation attack him in contradiction with the negotiations we had in progress. When your leader is saying one thing at the negotiating table, then you guys do something else; that doesn't go well for continued negotiations. I was being very permissive in allowing you guys to get your vengeance, but then your actions were a slap in the face of the progress which was being made.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Methrage

[denkimon]

Sigrun It's nice in principle, but Stonewall was an upstanding member for months before he went out-of-bounds. Methrage accepted and kept him despite our warnings of unresolved issues due to his theft of aid and repeated nuking of our nations.

 

In any case Methrage wouldn't even give us 16 hours.  What would you have us do? He can't just step in and unilaterally impose on us what he wants to happen. We were more than willing to negotiate, he attacked us.

[Sephiroth]

Sigrun It's nice in principle, but Stonewall was an upstanding member for months before he went out-of-bounds. Methrage accepted and kept him despite our warnings of unresolved issues due to his theft of aid and repeated nuking of our nations.

 

In any case Methrage wouldn't even give us 16 hours.  What would you have us do? He can't just step in and unilaterally impose on us what he wants to happen. We were more than willing to negotiate, he attacked us.

He had no wars with Kashmir when I accepted him and I didn't hear anything about your grudges with him until after he was already a member.

 

You guys choosing to have new nations attack him during that 16 hours kind of defeated the whole purpose.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Methrage

[Sigrun Vapneir]

While negotiating with your leader, the agreement in progress was no new wars were to be declared beyond the 2 who had already had been declared. Instead of speaking with me and saying we need an additional guy attacking him, instead you had another nation attack him in contradiction with the negotiations we had in progress. When your leader is saying one thing at the negotiating table, then you guys do something else; that doesn't go well for continued negotiations. I was being very permissive in allowing you guys to get your vengeance, but then your actions were a slap in the face of the progress which was being made.

 

And look folks, the best I know at this point the above text is correct.

 

I dont need to insult your alliance just because you are not 100% on top of negotiations. I am not, don't have team of delegates to take care of this stuff for me, and neither does Methrage.

 

We don't necessarily expect you to be either. But when you screw something up you should at least take responsibility and keep negotiating in good faith. There is absolutely no reason there needs to be a real war over this. Kashmir has plenty of options to save face without having to break LN in the process. You will not break LN without breaking me first, and I can and will fight for multiple years if you force me to do so.

 

I repeat I am extremely available for negotiations and extremely happy to aid in negotiations.

 

I am also absolutely going to support my former kronprinz here as long as what he is doing seems reasonable to me. And as much as I would love to say otherwise, his actions here do appear reasonable.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Sigrun Vapneir

[Kilroy]

 

This is true and I urge you Kashmiri to listen to him. I may not come in 100% on your side, but you have my symapthy, and I would much rather negotiate than fight (admittedly, only because of the stonewall14 connection.)

 

 

It is  a crappy situation, absolutely. To be fair, at the absolute minimum, Kashmir needs to give Methrage as much time as they took themselves to understand what they were dealing with. So how long did serial aid-scammer/deserter stonewall14 shelter on the Kashmir AA?

 

Inquiring minds want to know.

So far as I know we were unaware of his rampant douchebaggery. Unlike methrage we didn't have anyone teling us he was a mistake. He'd have never gotten as far as he did in the alliance had we known his history. Then again I've only been back for a few months. You'd have to ask someone else. Doesn't really matter IMO since we are the victims here. He went all derpity doo on us, stole massive amounts of funds and nuked several of our members unprovoked including myself. Every bomb dropped on his head is well deserved. Anyone defending him is equally guilty at this point. While i'd like to see a peaceful solution for everyone other than stonewall certain peoples egos don't seem to be compatable with that.

[Neo Uruk]

I don't think there's a strong enough synonym for how stupid and twisted this argument is. If it helps, remove me from the equation; I'm irrelevant to the original scenario between Stonewall and Kashmir.

Kashmir are at war with Stonewall. Methrage has decided not only to keep Stonewall on his AA, but to wave his middle finger at Kashmir and request that they stop attacking him for a week - while sending him aid. This is sheltering and aiding a person who has rogued Kashmir and has been publicly !@#$ting in their birthday thread for weeks now. Whether there is a war with me or not, Kashmir are well within their rights to pursue their rogue. Methrage should have known the baggage if he was going to blindly protect anyone on his AA.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Neo Uruk

[Sephiroth]

So far as I know we were unaware of his rampant !@#$%baggery. Unlike methrage we didn't have anyone teling us he was a mistake. He'd have never gotten as far as he did in the alliance had we known his history. Then again I've only been back for a few months. You'd have to ask someone else. Doesn't really matter IMO since we are the victims here. He went all derpity doo on us, stole massive amounts of funds and nuked several of our members unprovoked including myself. Every bomb dropped on his head is well deserved. Anyone defending him is equally guilty at this point. While i'd like to see a peaceful solution for everyone other than stonewall certain peoples egos don't seem to be compatable with that.

I offered you guys large sums of money to let him go, when it was made clear you wanted to attack him instead; I offered large sums to delay his punishment. When you guys didn't want that, I even allowed you guys to continue your 2 wars against him and we seemingly had an agreement. Then suddenly you ignore negotiations and do something in complete contradiction. You messed up.

[Rayvon]

My understanding from Meth ...

 
Well when you start your sentence here, without looking at the rest of the situation, you can already see your error ... Meth hasn't been able to comprehend anything since the beginning of this ordeal .. He even still can't keep straight the information as it's being conveyed, he's still clinging to his little in-mind deciphering of statements that are of extreme disrelation to the truth of the statements said.

For example:
 

While negotiating with your leader, the agreement in progress was no new wars were to be declared beyond the 2 who had already been declared. Instead of speaking with me and saying we need an additional guy attacking him, you had another nation attack him in contradiction with the negotiations we had in progress. When your leader is saying one thing at the negotiating table, then you guys do something else; that doesn't go well for continued negotiations. I was being very permissive in allowing you guys to get your vengeance, but then your actions were a slap in the face of the progress which was being made.

This was mentioned 2 pages ago referencing where it was straightened out in another thread .. And he's sat and used Kashmiri's own government publically to threaten and shame Kashmiri members based on these ..

And that's just two little tidbits in the larger ordeal.

I'd say Meth has earned this situation.

[denkimon]

He had no wars with Kashmir when I accepted him and I didn't hear anything about your grudges with him until after he was already a member.

 

You guys choosing to have new nations attack him during that 16 hours kind of defeated the whole purpose.

You are right and we didn't. And how long did it take you to accept him? Did you do any due diligence on his past? You would think his NS chart, or his war screen, or his constant alliance changes, or his aid screen would highlight to you something was amiss.  But no, you're incapable of this apparently, so we subsequently approached you about it. I would think such an upstanding moralist as yourself would respect our situation, especially considering all the kowtowing you were doing as "our friend"..

 

There was NO AGREEMENT IN PLACE. How many times does SW have to show the logs?  How can you even justify defending stonewall?

 

And to Sirgun- No agreement was in place. Sir William has refuted Methrage's claim repeatedly. I mean no disrespect, but how did you come to "the best of your knowledge"? It seems decidedly you accept the story Methrage tells, with little or no consideration for our side.

[WorldConqueror]

He had no wars with Kashmir when I accepted him and I didn't hear anything about your grudges with him until after he was already a member.
 
You guys choosing to have new nations attack him during that 16 hours kind of defeated the whole purpose.

Had agreement been reached at the conclusion of the 16 hours peace offers could have been sent. Don't pretend you were forced to act because he was facing another full round of war.

[King Conrad]

As SW has said MANY TIMES: There was NO AGREEMENT. There were terms being put forth, but none were agreed upon. Given Stonewall's status as a rogue who has tried multiple times in the past little while to gain entrance to any and every alliance he can, we have been warning various alliances NOT to accept him as the situations have arisen. This is what was done with Methrage. He chose to try and buy Stonewall a reprieve, and we said no. He continues to claim there was an agreement when nothing was ever agreed upon, including any terms regarding bringing down the guy who's been bombing our noobs since the beginning of May. Whatever assumptions Methrage made are unfortunate, but the fact of the matter is that nothing was agreed upon between the two parties.

[YOLO SWAG]

I offered you guys large sums of money to let him go, when it was made clear you wanted to attack him instead; I offered large sums to delay his punishment. When you guys didn't want that, I even allowed you guys to continue your 2 wars against him and we seemingly had an agreement. Then suddenly you ignore negotiations and do something in complete contradiction. You messed up.

 

I don't know how many times this can be said.

 

<SirWilliam> give me 16 hours to clarify with my membership before i commit to anything with you. don't want to misspeak or appear to be lying to you

 

That was the very last thing I had to say on the matter, I thought it was pretty clear that at present there is no agreement nor terms.

 

Edit: Looks like I've been beaten to the punch, haha.

Edited June 17, 2014 by YOLO SWAG

[Sephiroth]

 

I don't know how many times this can be said.

 

A lot of things were said before that. 16 hours wasn't the extent of our negotiations, yet you guys seem to ignore all of them.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Methrage

[denkimon]

I offered you guys large sums of money to let him go, when it was made clear you wanted to attack him instead; I offered large sums to delay his punishment. When you guys didn't want that, I even allowed you guys to continue your 2 wars against him and we seemingly had an agreement. Then suddenly you ignore negotiations and do something in complete contradiction. You messed up.

 

What you offered is irrelevant.  We said no, as is our right, and that should have been that, if you truly respected us as a "friend", as you plastered all over our forums only hours before attacking us. Nevermind your offer was a pittance compared to what he owes/destroyed. All we asked for was 16 hours, and you couldn't even do that,

 

Reap what you sow Methrage.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

So far as I know we were unaware of his rampant !@#$%baggery. Unlike methrage we didn't have anyone teling us he was a mistake. He'd have never gotten as far as he did in the alliance had we known his history. Then again I've only been back for a few months. You'd have to ask someone else. Doesn't really matter IMO since we are the victims here. He went all derpity doo on us, stole massive amounts of funds and nuked several of our members unprovoked including myself. Every bomb dropped on his head is well deserved. Anyone defending him is equally guilty at this point. While i'd like to see a peaceful solution for everyone other than stonewall certain peoples egos don't seem to be compatable with that.

 

Well keep in mind I only became aware of the situation approximately 5 hours ago. Methrage has had very little time to absorbe my warnings.

 

And also keep in mind this is a guy that has been aid-scamming and deserting for 4-5 years now *with the same nation.*

 

If you did not know this about him, you did not do due diligence. Join the club,etc, but please at least take responsibility here. It's not like you could have done anything approximating a background check and failed to find problems. No, not at all. You (in plural, the alliance as a whole) either failed to do due diligence here, or you knowingly admitted a serial aid-scammer and serial deserter.

 

Just for the record, you failed at due diligence (never twigged to his past) or you knew this jackasses past and just like every other prior alliance you saw the positives and blinded yourself to the negatives?  Which is it?

[The Pansy]

I think Methrage would have seen it that during those 16 hours as a sign of good faith, no actions would have been taken, until he was given an answer from Kashmir.
To the best of my knowledge, Kashmirs answer on that fate was the next declaration of war, which Methrage has taken as an insult, and acted as he has.

That's what I am getting from this timeline, anyway. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Sephiroth]

 

Well keep in mind I only became aware of the situation approximately 5 hours ago. Methrage has had very little time to absorbe my warnings.

 

And also keep in mind this is a guy that has been aid-scamming and deserting for 4-5 years now *with the same nation.*

 

If you did not know this about him, you did not do due diligence. Join the club,etc, but please at least take responsibility here. It's not like you could have done anything approximating a background check and failed to find problems. No, not at all. You (in plural, the alliance as a whole) either failed to do due diligence here, or you knowingly admitted a serial aid-scammer and serial deserter.

 

Just for the record, you failed at due diligence (never twigged to his past) or you knew this jackasses past and just like every other prior alliance you saw the positives and blinded yourself to the negatives?  Which is it?

Don't bother trying to negotiate with them, they will try to twist things however they want.

 

I'm not looking for peace, so you don't need to try negotiating peace for me. I'm having more fun than I've had in a long time, so let the war run its course and enjoy the show. :)