The Taiwan Crisis

[PresidentDavid]

My edit and your post occurred in the same minute. And I didn't say every instance of nuclear weapons of trolling. I just stated that it does exist. You've proven you like them though....

[Markus Wilding]

I tried to come to a fair compromise from both. Here are the IRC logs for posterity reasons and to prove I'm not a lying sack of moron.

 

Evangeline

[spoiler][22:36:18] <Markus_Wilding> what would you say China wants out of a peace deal?

[22:37:16] <Evangeline> China wants most of all that Taiwan and Hong Kong not slip away from China's grasp and from the definition of the Chinese national patrimony

[22:40:38] <Markus_Wilding> how does China define the Chinese national patrimony?

[22:40:40] <Markus_Wilding> explain it to me

[22:41:21] <Evangeline> All the lands that belong to the Chinese nation, according to the Republic of China IRL.

[22:41:47] <Markus_Wilding> from Beijing? not Taiwan?

[22:41:52] <Evangeline> Which includes Taiwan and Hong Kong, which only split away due to Great Britain and the civil war

[22:41:59] <Markus_Wilding> ok

[22:46:13] <Markus_Wilding> what do you think of Taiwan having elections held to determine its fate with non-Chinese and non-Japanese observers present to prevent corruption with six options (to be detailed in a post), China is given administration of Hong Kong, and China and Japan sign a non-aggression pact

[22:46:43] <Evangeline> What are the options?

[22:46:47] <Markus_Wilding> the six options being: white space, join Japan, join Shanghai, join South China, join North China, joint administration between Japan and China 

[22:47:11] <Evangeline> I'm not going to accept a join Japan option

[22:47:23] <Markus_Wilding> Taiwan needs to have a choice

[22:47:32] <Evangeline> Not for Japan

[22:47:40] <Markus_Wilding> why not?

[22:47:56] <Evangeline> Because that's breaking out of the patrimony

[22:48:04] <Evangeline> It's like Crimea joining Russia

[22:48:18] <Evangeline> Just that no Japanese majority lives here

[22:48:32] <Markus_Wilding> if I may be blunt here

[22:48:42] <Markus_Wilding> Taiwan does not consider itself to be mainland Chinese

[22:48:55] <Evangeline> It considers itself Chinese

[22:49:10] <Markus_Wilding> I don't see why it should have a choice between only a joint admin, white space, or China

[22:49:12] <Evangeline> Just not communist Chinese

[22:50:04] <Markus_Wilding> I won't argue with the whole communist or not business

[22:50:16] <Markus_Wilding> because frankly that's not my area of expertise

[22:51:02] <Evangeline> The reason Taiwan is seperate is because the nationalists withdrew there when they lost the civil war and with US backing they held out

[22:51:14] <Markus_Wilding> however, surely you contend that by not having either Chinese or Japanese overseeing the election process, it is the will of the people speaking, no?

[22:51:21] <Markus_Wilding> IC at least

[22:51:31] <Evangeline> Taiwan won't rejoin mainland china because they have democracy and the mainland has not

[22:51:51] <Markus_Wilding> I'm not talking about RL taiwan anymore, I'm talking about RP taiwan

[22:51:57] <Evangeline> The will of the people counts only for so much

[22:52:13] <Evangeline> The sovereign right of states still curbs it

[22:52:53] <Markus_Wilding> Is it not fundamental in a situation such as this, the people are consulted?

[22:52:57] <Markus_Wilding> why limit their choices?

[22:53:10] <Evangeline> Secession is only allowed by international law if there were gross violations of human rights or if the culture of Taiwan would be existentially threatened

[22:53:16] <Evangeline> Both not the case

[22:53:31] <Markus_Wilding> International law no longer exists in this RP, though

[22:53:41] <Evangeline> I limit the choices, because by joining Taiwan, it secceeds from China

[22:53:54] <Evangeline> Well, then why care about the will of the people?

[22:54:07] <Markus_Wilding> four of those six options favor at the minimum Chinese involvement

[22:54:35] <Markus_Wilding> and you wish to make it four out of five?

[22:54:58] <Markus_Wilding> you and I both know Japan would never accept that

[22:55:07] <Evangeline> Actually, I'd go with two out of three and have an extra poll about which Chinese

[22:55:21] <Evangeline> Well, if Mogar can't accept it...

[22:55:43] <Markus_Wilding> then what?

[22:55:54] <Evangeline> Can't help that

[22:56:29] <Evangeline> At some point my opinion will be just "Then he shouldn't take Chinese territory"

[22:57:02] <Markus_Wilding> if I may be blunt again, that seems to already be China's opinion

[22:57:40] <Evangeline> It is, but I'll let Mogar have some influence in joint administration

[22:57:53] <Evangeline> Despite knowing that Horo will be very bitter about it

[22:58:08] <Evangeline> (this much about me being the puppet master)

[22:58:34] <Markus_Wilding> Whether you are or not is outside of the scope of my discussion with you, and frankly, not really my concern

[22:59:16] <Markus_Wilding> I am afraid, however, we've reached an impasse

[22:59:28] <Markus_Wilding> Mogar has stated without the Japanese option, the elections are unfair

[22:59:46] <Markus_Wilding> and you have made it clear a Japanese option is out of the question aside from joint administration

[23:01:48] <Markus_Wilding> This is probably the fairest proposal I can come up with, and unless somebody's opinion changes over the course of the next five minutes, I doubt this will actually pass by either of you.[/spoiler]

 

Mogar

[spoiler] [22:37:02] <Markus_Wilding> what would you say Japan wants out of a peace deal?

[22:37:15] <Mogar> far more than she is offering

[22:37:21] <Mogar> but i dont want to give input

[22:37:24] <Mogar> i acted out of line

[22:37:33] <Mogar> whatever you guys decide is actually fair i will accept

[22:37:52] <Markus_Wilding> I'm trying to work towards a fair compromise, but I can't do that without knowing the IC wants of Japan

[22:38:07] <Mogar> Taiwan should be given its own choice

[22:38:14] <Mogar> which is what I have wanted from the begining

[22:38:23] <Mogar> a poll election to determine the fate of Taiwan

[22:38:29] <Mogar> 5 options

[22:38:43] <Mogar> well 6 now

[22:38:58] <Mogar> white space, japan, shanghai, North China, South China, joint Admin

[22:39:12] <Mogar> that was my original statement to eva

[22:43:25] <Markus_Wilding> now, what about Hong Kong?

[22:43:29] <Markus_Wilding> what's Japan's view on that?

[22:43:41] <Mogar> Hong Kong I am completely willing to concede to her

[22:43:48] <Mogar> it IS close to her

[22:44:03] <Mogar> ICly i don't like it but it also would be beyond retarded to try to defend 

[22:44:25] <Mogar> even if i was given it, a few MOABs and its gone

[22:44:45] <Markus_Wilding> right

[22:45:02] <Markus_Wilding> alright, so how's about this, and this is going to both you and eva atm

[22:46:04] <Markus_Wilding> what do you think of Taiwan having elections held to determine its fate with non-Chinese and non-Japanese observers present to prevent corruption with six options (to be detailed in a post), China is given administration of Hong Kong, and China and Japan sign a non-aggression pact

[22:46:40] <Markus_Wilding> the six options being: white space, join Japan, join Shanghai, join South China, join North China, joint administration between Japan and China 

[22:46:43] <Mogar> i'd be fine with that

[22:56:31] <Markus_Wilding> Evangeline has proposed to me that the option to join Japan be taken off and a second poll be added to determine which of the three Chinese states Taiwan joins

[22:56:38] <Markus_Wilding> if I am understanding her correctly

[22:57:36] <Mogar> which proves it wouldnt be fair elections

[23:00:09] <Markus_Wilding> I'm afraid we reached an impasse

[23:00:37] <Mogar> which is what happened in the logs with zoot

[23:00:38] <Markus_Wilding> Evangeline has made it clear a poll with a Japanese option outside of joint administration is out of the question, and without said option, you contend the elections are unfair

[23:00:40] <Mogar> if you read them

[23:00:52] <Mogar> i have to give her at least 80% of what she wants

[23:01:55] <Markus_Wilding> This is probably the fairest proposal I can come up with, and unless somebody's opinion changes over the course of the next five minutes, I doubt this will actually pass by either of you.[/spoiler]

 

Therefore, given that neither side can agree to what is arguably the fairest peace deal (that my mind can come up with, anyway) I propose the RP be wiped, again.

[Beauty]

My edit and your post occurred in the same minute. And I didn't say every instance of nuclear weapons of trolling. I just stated that it does exist. You've proven you like them though....

 

I like them to bargain with. If you feel a nuclear nation is a threat and they are using them incorrectly, handle it ICly by pulling an Operation Iraqi Freedom. In peace terms hold inspections of the nation to assure they don't have them anymore.

 

Please stay on topic from here on out or make a thread about it.

 

I tried to come to a fair compromise from both. Here are the IRC logs for posterity reasons and to prove I'm not a lying sack of moron.

 

Evangeline

[spoiler][22:36:18] <Markus_Wilding> what would you say China wants out of a peace deal?

[22:37:16] <Evangeline> China wants most of all that Taiwan and Hong Kong not slip away from China's grasp and from the definition of the Chinese national patrimony

[22:40:38] <Markus_Wilding> how does China define the Chinese national patrimony?

[22:40:40] <Markus_Wilding> explain it to me

[22:41:21] <Evangeline> All the lands that belong to the Chinese nation, according to the Republic of China IRL.

[22:41:47] <Markus_Wilding> from Beijing? not Taiwan?

[22:41:52] <Evangeline> Which includes Taiwan and Hong Kong, which only split away due to Great Britain and the civil war

[22:41:59] <Markus_Wilding> ok

[22:46:13] <Markus_Wilding> what do you think of Taiwan having elections held to determine its fate with non-Chinese and non-Japanese observers present to prevent corruption with six options (to be detailed in a post), China is given administration of Hong Kong, and China and Japan sign a non-aggression pact

[22:46:43] <Evangeline> What are the options?

[22:46:47] <Markus_Wilding> the six options being: white space, join Japan, join Shanghai, join South China, join North China, joint administration between Japan and China 

[22:47:11] <Evangeline> I'm not going to accept a join Japan option

[22:47:23] <Markus_Wilding> Taiwan needs to have a choice

[22:47:32] <Evangeline> Not for Japan

[22:47:40] <Markus_Wilding> why not?

[22:47:56] <Evangeline> Because that's breaking out of the patrimony

[22:48:04] <Evangeline> It's like Crimea joining Russia

[22:48:18] <Evangeline> Just that no Japanese majority lives here

[22:48:32] <Markus_Wilding> if I may be blunt here

[22:48:42] <Markus_Wilding> Taiwan does not consider itself to be mainland Chinese

[22:48:55] <Evangeline> It considers itself Chinese

[22:49:10] <Markus_Wilding> I don't see why it should have a choice between only a joint admin, white space, or China

[22:49:12] <Evangeline> Just not communist Chinese

[22:50:04] <Markus_Wilding> I won't argue with the whole communist or not business

[22:50:16] <Markus_Wilding> because frankly that's not my area of expertise

[22:51:02] <Evangeline> The reason Taiwan is seperate is because the nationalists withdrew there when they lost the civil war and with US backing they held out

[22:51:14] <Markus_Wilding> however, surely you contend that by not having either Chinese or Japanese overseeing the election process, it is the will of the people speaking, no?

[22:51:21] <Markus_Wilding> IC at least

[22:51:31] <Evangeline> Taiwan won't rejoin mainland china because they have democracy and the mainland has not

[22:51:51] <Markus_Wilding> I'm not talking about RL taiwan anymore, I'm talking about RP taiwan

[22:51:57] <Evangeline> The will of the people counts only for so much

[22:52:13] <Evangeline> The sovereign right of states still curbs it

[22:52:53] <Markus_Wilding> Is it not fundamental in a situation such as this, the people are consulted?

[22:52:57] <Markus_Wilding> why limit their choices?

[22:53:10] <Evangeline> Secession is only allowed by international law if there were gross violations of human rights or if the culture of Taiwan would be existentially threatened

[22:53:16] <Evangeline> Both not the case

[22:53:31] <Markus_Wilding> International law no longer exists in this RP, though

[22:53:41] <Evangeline> I limit the choices, because by joining Taiwan, it secceeds from China

[22:53:54] <Evangeline> Well, then why care about the will of the people?

[22:54:07] <Markus_Wilding> four of those six options favor at the minimum Chinese involvement

[22:54:35] <Markus_Wilding> and you wish to make it four out of five?

[22:54:58] <Markus_Wilding> you and I both know Japan would never accept that

[22:55:07] <Evangeline> Actually, I'd go with two out of three and have an extra poll about which Chinese

[22:55:21] <Evangeline> Well, if Mogar can't accept it...

[22:55:43] <Markus_Wilding> then what?

[22:55:54] <Evangeline> Can't help that

[22:56:29] <Evangeline> At some point my opinion will be just "Then he shouldn't take Chinese territory"

[22:57:02] <Markus_Wilding> if I may be blunt again, that seems to already be China's opinion

[22:57:40] <Evangeline> It is, but I'll let Mogar have some influence in joint administration

[22:57:53] <Evangeline> Despite knowing that Horo will be very bitter about it

[22:58:08] <Evangeline> (this much about me being the puppet master)

[22:58:34] <Markus_Wilding> Whether you are or not is outside of the scope of my discussion with you, and frankly, not really my concern

[22:59:16] <Markus_Wilding> I am afraid, however, we've reached an impasse

[22:59:28] <Markus_Wilding> Mogar has stated without the Japanese option, the elections are unfair

[22:59:46] <Markus_Wilding> and you have made it clear a Japanese option is out of the question aside from joint administration

[23:01:48] <Markus_Wilding> This is probably the fairest proposal I can come up with, and unless somebody's opinion changes over the course of the next five minutes, I doubt this will actually pass by either of you.[/spoiler]

 

Mogar

[spoiler] [22:37:02] <Markus_Wilding> what would you say Japan wants out of a peace deal?

[22:37:15] <Mogar> far more than she is offering

[22:37:21] <Mogar> but i dont want to give input

[22:37:24] <Mogar> i acted out of line

[22:37:33] <Mogar> whatever you guys decide is actually fair i will accept

[22:37:52] <Markus_Wilding> I'm trying to work towards a fair compromise, but I can't do that without knowing the IC wants of Japan

[22:38:07] <Mogar> Taiwan should be given its own choice

[22:38:14] <Mogar> which is what I have wanted from the begining

[22:38:23] <Mogar> a poll election to determine the fate of Taiwan

[22:38:29] <Mogar> 5 options

[22:38:43] <Mogar> well 6 now

[22:38:58] <Mogar> white space, japan, shanghai, North China, South China, joint Admin

[22:39:12] <Mogar> that was my original statement to eva

[22:43:25] <Markus_Wilding> now, what about Hong Kong?

[22:43:29] <Markus_Wilding> what's Japan's view on that?

[22:43:41] <Mogar> Hong Kong I am completely willing to concede to her

[22:43:48] <Mogar> it IS close to her

[22:44:03] <Mogar> ICly i don't like it but it also would be beyond retarded to try to defend 

[22:44:25] <Mogar> even if i was given it, a few MOABs and its gone

[22:44:45] <Markus_Wilding> right

[22:45:02] <Markus_Wilding> alright, so how's about this, and this is going to both you and eva atm

[22:46:04] <Markus_Wilding> what do you think of Taiwan having elections held to determine its fate with non-Chinese and non-Japanese observers present to prevent corruption with six options (to be detailed in a post), China is given administration of Hong Kong, and China and Japan sign a non-aggression pact

[22:46:40] <Markus_Wilding> the six options being: white space, join Japan, join Shanghai, join South China, join North China, joint administration between Japan and China 

[22:46:43] <Mogar> i'd be fine with that

[22:56:31] <Markus_Wilding> Evangeline has proposed to me that the option to join Japan be taken off and a second poll be added to determine which of the three Chinese states Taiwan joins

[22:56:38] <Markus_Wilding> if I am understanding her correctly

[22:57:36] <Mogar> which proves it wouldnt be fair elections

[23:00:09] <Markus_Wilding> I'm afraid we reached an impasse

[23:00:37] <Mogar> which is what happened in the logs with zoot

[23:00:38] <Markus_Wilding> Evangeline has made it clear a poll with a Japanese option outside of joint administration is out of the question, and without said option, you contend the elections are unfair

[23:00:40] <Mogar> if you read them

[23:00:52] <Mogar> i have to give her at least 80% of what she wants

[23:01:55] <Markus_Wilding> This is probably the fairest proposal I can come up with, and unless somebody's opinion changes over the course of the next five minutes, I doubt this will actually pass by either of you.[/spoiler]

 

Therefore, given that neither side can agree to what is arguably the fairest peace deal (that my mind can come up with, anyway) I propose the RP be wiped, again.

 

That does nothing to solve it. They'll just go back to fighting over them again, next time could be worse. We have to stop retconning everything that hurts someones feelings. It's RP. You can't win everytime. RP the bad things out and handle it ICly.

 

We have to solve who gets what, not what happened. Mogar has agreed to let the community decide, Eva needs to agree to the same.

 

 

Edited May 31, 2014 by Rotavele

[Hereno]

Rota is a troll. No need to speak any further on that derailment.
 

I do not want it retconned because we put ourselves into this mess in the first place, perhaps RPing for the next month rebuilding will give Eva some consideration of how to be more diplomatic with her neighbors, and me to do the same, neither of us acted maturely or purely ICly, i support the nukes happening as a form of punishment.

What's more likely is that you just stop RPing as much because it's boring as shit to just rebuild for an entire month. I don't think any weird punishment beyond this debacle is necessary, but I do find it kinda interesting that you don't want it all retconned. Do you really feel as though the issue will just crop up later if it isn't resolved now?

[Evangeline Anovilis]

(Eva's stuff)[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Reply!

 

So basically, you're admitting that there is only one piece of the treaty that gives anything to the other party, and that it's nothing they want, and only works if they choose to use it?

Quality is also something you might want to look into. Not just quantity. And then you still need to look at what the other realistic options are.

 

I don't want Indonesia though. I clearly stated before you ever came into this RP the claims I had were as expansive as I really had any interest in.

And I clearly stated before, I'd defend China. Just because you adopt some weird definition of China that's neither the official position of the PRC, RoC, Hong Kong, Japan, the US nor most other states, I got no idea why you expect me to be fine with letting youhave those two.

 

I think these are a lot more reasonable:

1. Hong Kong rejoins Eva's China.
2. Taiwan is released from Japan as an independent protectorate of all 3 Chinas and Japan, with a unanimous vote of all surviving protectors in order to annex the island or remove protection.
3. China recants the "Splendid Asia" doctrine.
4. All parties enter into a NAP that can only be cancelled after at least 10 IC years have passed.

Not recanting Splendid Asia without Taiwan.

 

 

And this is where we disagree because of our drastically different backstories. If by a few you mean 20,000. I could claim another place but they're not of the same economic level as Taiwan would be, as literally one of the greatest manufacturing nations in the world. You could easily annex Tibet if you wished to expand, or actually RP out your two nations becoming one instead of the half assed relationship you currently have but that would mean actually justifying the fact your leaders are siblings somehow in charge of two dramatically different political entities. I could annex alot of things but they don't provide me with the commonwealth goal I had intended, due to me having to dramatically change a nation in order to suit what I would require.

 

Would you get more out of this by being a nuclear rogue state? I can prove I did not press the button first.

If you want to take a shot at our leaders, the Imperial Household Law of Japan forbids females from ascending to the throne. Please keep your shots to where my RP actually might hurt anyone. Next, Indonesia is more valuable than Taiwan. I have reason to fixate on it, because Han Chinese live there. You can build factories and get ressources elsewhere just as fine, with nations like Indonesia really being a ton more valuable to ressource-strapped Japan.

[Beauty]

Quality is also something you might want to look into. Not just quantity. And then you still need to look at what the other realistic options are.

 

And I clearly stated before, I'd defend China. Just because you adopt some weird definition of China that's neither the official position of the PRC, RoC, Hong Kong, Japan, the US nor most other states, I got no idea why you expect me to be fine with letting youhave those two.

 

Not recanting Splendid Asia without Taiwan.

 

 

If you want to take a shot at our leaders, the Imperial Household Law of Japan forbids females from ascending to the throne. Please keep your shots to where my RP actually might hurt anyone. Next, Indonesia is more valuable than Taiwan. I have reason to fixate on it, because Han Chinese live there. You can build factories and get ressources elsewhere just as fine, with nations like Indonesia really being a ton more valuable to ressource-strapped Japan.

 

Morally and Ethically that is a good point. However is that what the Taiwanese want? You guys are both claiming these people and not really paying attention to what they want. Maybe they want to be self-governing for awhile.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Rotavele

[Markus Wilding]

 

That does nothing to solve it. They'll just go back to fighting over them again, next time could be worse. We have to stop retconning everything that hurts someones feelings. It's RP. You can't win everytime. RP the bad things out and handle it ICly.

 

We have to solve who gets what, not what happened. Mogar has agreed to let the community decide, Eva needs to agree to the same.

 

 

I don't advocate retconning the RP because it hurt someone's feelings, I advocate retconning the RP because not only is it a mess, there's absolutely no compromise for peace that can be accepted by either side ICly. The only end option out of that is total destruction of each other, and that's not the sort of RP atmosphere I wish to advocate.

[Hereno]

Not recanting Splendid Asia without Taiwan.

 

What if China gets Taiwan and Japan keeps Hong Kong? The "Han Chinese" argument doesn't hold much weight at all in the case of Hong Kong since it hasn't actually been an administered part of China in over a century. But you get Taiwan, which I know fits with your Republic of China theme and is therefore of considerably greater value to you.

[Mogar]

If you want to take a shot at our leaders, the Imperial Household Law of Japan forbids females from ascending to the throne. Please keep your shots to where my RP actually might hurt anyone. Next, Indonesia is more valuable than Taiwan. I have reason to fixate on it, because Han Chinese live there. You can build factories and get ressources elsewhere just as fine, with nations like Indonesia really being a ton more valuable to ressource-strapped Japan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_succession_controversy

 

Again, you're basing this entirely off of reality, I am not. I am not interested in raw resources which I can import from the dozen other people I have diplomatic threads with, I am interested in maintaining an economic dominance in specific areas, notably elections and high technology. we both have a reason to fixate on it, Han chinese also live in a dozen other countries with a very decent percentage, does that mean you hold claim over those lands too?

[Beauty]

 

I don't advocate retconning the RP because it hurt someone's feelings, I advocate retconning the RP because not only is it a mess, there's absolutely no compromise for peace that can be accepted by either side ICly. The only end option out of that is total destruction of each other, and that's not the sort of RP atmosphere I wish to advocate.

 

When we retcon the RP what happens with the Islands? They both want them.

 

 

What if China gets Taiwan and Japan keeps Hong Kong? The "Han Chinese" argument doesn't hold much weight at all in the case of Hong Kong since it hasn't actually been an administered part of China in over a century. But you get Taiwan, which I know fits with your Republic of China theme and is therefore of considerably greater value to you.

 

True and also your ethnicity in the RP can be anything. You don't have to RP Chinese in China if you want them to be different.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_succession_controversy

 

Again, you're basing this entirely off of reality, I am not. I am not interested in raw resources which I can import from the dozen other people I have diplomatic threads with, I am interested in maintaining an economic dominance in specific areas, notably elections and high technology. we both have a reason to fixate on it, Han chinese also live in a dozen other countries with a very decent percentage, does that mean you hold claim over those lands too?

 

The Leaders of Japan or China are irrelevant to the argument. Please keep your mind on the problem at hand. (To the both of you)

[Evangeline Anovilis]

Honestly, a retcon without peace deal is merely the question whether the war will be conventional or nuclear?

 

 

 

What if China gets Taiwan and Japan keeps Hong Kong? The "Han Chinese" argument doesn't hold much weight at all in the case of Hong Kong since it hasn't actually been an administered part of China in over a century. But you get Taiwan, which I know fits with your Republic of China theme and is therefore of considerably greater value to you.

Fine, but otherwise I'll sign nothing.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_succession_controversy

 

Again, you're basing this entirely off of reality, I am not. I am not interested in raw resources which I can import from the dozen other people I have diplomatic threads with, I am interested in maintaining an economic dominance in specific areas, notably elections and high technology. we both have a reason to fixate on it, Han chinese also live in a dozen other countries with a very decent percentage, does that mean you hold claim over those lands too?

I hold claims over what constitutes the Republic of China. That's a concept that wasn't made up by me and I don't need to bend any realities to go with it. Just because some country got a good few Chinatowns doesn't mean it is Chinese, yet I already said so: Taiwan and Hong Kong are Chinese in pretty much every regard, politically accepted as such and historically tied to China until the British took Hong Kong and the Civil War split China.

[Shave N Haircut]

Quality is also something you might want to look into. Not just quantity. And then you still need to look at what the other realistic options are.

 

I'm looking at both, the quality of your concessions is very, very seriously lacking, because it effectively gives up nothing.

[Evangeline Anovilis]

 

I'm looking at both, the quality of your concessions is very, very seriously lacking, because it effectively gives up nothing.

Compared to my maximum claim, it allows Mogar to have influence in what would be seen internal matters of China. That's not nothing.

[Shave N Haircut]

Compared to my maximum claim, it allows Mogar to have influence in what would be seen internal matters of China. That's not nothing.

No, but it's still him handing you (Massive amounts of) territory in exchange for you not interfering with his affairs any further, it's extortion at best.

[Beauty]

Heres a map where mainly aboriginals (Reddish regions) can we split Taiwan that way somehow?

 

 

The aboriginals mostly vote for the KMT and the other regions mostly vote for DPP. As indicated here:

 

 

Could you guys split it that way since Taiwan seems to be divided politically and such?

[Mogar]

I would have no issues with that, or any other split the community feels is fair.

What's more likely is that you just stop RPing as much because it's boring as !@#$ to just rebuild for an entire month. I don't think any weird punishment beyond this debacle is necessary, but I do find it kinda interesting that you don't want it all retconned. Do you really feel as though the issue will just crop up later if it isn't resolved now?

110% yes, if this gets retconned its simply a matter of who decides they're losing enough to press the big red button again. and any peace agreement reached without solving the two points of contention will lead to another war after we've licked our wounds.

[Beauty]

Split Taiwan, and Joint-Administer Hong Kong in my opinion. Cool with you Eva?

[Kevin Kingswell]

I am against any retcon and will not stand for one. You people need to take your punches, roll with them and react IC. In addition this needs to be sorted out IC instead of here trying to create a peace deal OOC. Either RP or just leave stop with the OOC.

[Lynneth]

I'd be for a retcon if only because murderkilling the Filipino govt for trying to protect some people was a hilariously exaggerated and needless response.

Just saiyan.

[Horo the Wise Wolf]

Let's look at this in a different light:

Stop doing your stupid-ass expansion into random land that makes no sense.

I thought the whole idea of CNRP2 was to escape Triyun, Cent and their huge swathes of land. But no, first day we get here, one of the top dog GMs takes some of the most sought-after land (Japan), and then starts starting to add bits of Asia to his collection. Which, I might add, only appear in Japanese Yellow because someone is the map maker; absolutely nothing has been done IC to even merit a claim on the land, let alone it actually belonging to you.

Which brings me to another point - RPing white space communities. I've said this once, and I'll say it again: just move troops there and say its yours if you want it. Deal with people being a bit upset about a military annexation, but no one seems to give a half a !@#$ anyway. But when you obviously, and quite greedily, start hoarding random land and justifying it because "the people have welcomed us! mud huts! poverty, death and disease!", it is just dumb. If that was even halfway to your actual intentions, you'd just send them some aid workers, help them out a bit, and then be on your merry way.

Even if all this gets retconned, my IC Government is still going to contest every expansion you make.

or actually RP out your two nations becoming one instead of the half assed relationship you currently have but that would mean actually justifying the fact your leaders are siblings somehow in charge of two dramatically different political entities.

Hey Mr. I'm the Best RPer in the World,

There have been numerous times throughout history were nations have been allied simply by virtue of being related to each other.

Secondly, I fail to see how this is an impossible feat. One ascended to the Crown because that's how inheritance works, and the other got voted in because that's how Democracy works. This is just sour grapes because you haven't gotten your way, and you need something to attack. For someone who bastions "respect" in RP, you certainly don't give out much of it.

[Captain Enema]

None of this thread matters.

 

The problem isn't the rp. If this was an rp issue, the three of them would have sorted it out by now, have peace treaties, and would be rping massive rebuilding and relief efforts.

 

The problems here are the rpers.

 

You guys want to fix the problems, fix the 3 rpers that are central to this situation. No IC treaty or IC agreement is going to matter as long as mogar, horo, and eva have their problems oocly. 

 

That being said... 

 

I'm more interested in what Kevin has to say, but can't be bothered with wading through this river of pity partying and self-victimization to find out if he's posted.

 

I'll catch up with him in irc.

 

 

Edited May 31, 2014 by Tidy Bowl Man

[Evangeline Anovilis]

So, after a good few hours of sleep, I'll just say that this whole mess is just embarrassing and a disaster. I am pretty calm, but I had a good few chuckles yesterday reading the hours worth of lines peace dealings and whatnot that were on the level of a bad joke and quite honestly, this deserves the mockeries it gets from Triyun, because some people are so hung up on CNRP, how could Triyun respond in any other fashion?

 

For one, get the timeline straight. The sole reason we are rolling with god knows how many years in the future is because a select few can't get over the old CNRP timeline and need to incorporate it into their history. Is the CNRP timeline this marvelous that we need to have it? No, it isn't. And if you really wanted to be a seperate RP, then make a clear cut, not treat this as CNRP without Tricent. You could very well use a RL scenario with about two decades of decline and warfare, instead of adding a millenia or two to make the past not matter. Sure, it means that some people can no longer claim that Taiwan is equidistant to Japan and China, but honestly, that's not just not true (Taiwan in Tianxia was still part of China and not of Japan, which did not even include the seperately governed Ryukyus), but it also is pretty retarded and I feel like it is just a bad excuse for making ridiculous claims.

 

Next, can we stop with this "toxic person" crap? It's a label that not only is used for branding people we don't like, but it also is applied in the most selective manner possible. As long as much of this RP community runs on hatred over CNRP, this won't go anywhere. If anything is toxic here it is the anti-CNRP circlejerk that has gone way too far and should be cut back in order for a more positively defined identity of this RP. We did manage to move towards constructive dialogue, before yesterday the backlash came. Also, for your information. For all the "They talk more about us than we talk about them", #cnrp isn't even half as much talking about you as it is the other way round, not to even talk about the quality of emotions in that talk.

 

Third, I do think the notion of not utterly destroying others' RP has value, but can we stop pretending this has to be sugar and rainbows? yes, I did make some aggressive statements, doesn't mean I was wiping out whole countries. I say sorry to Kevz maybe (though it is his own decision to let his President die and not to retcon), but all others involved pretty much had it coming. When France colonises stuff in the Pacific and Mogar makes moves on China, naturally I'm not going to sit back and nod it off, when it's against my IC beliefs (which I clearly stated before). If you want to take me on about that ICly, feel free to, got no issue with that. But instead I can read through hour long whining about how I should not have joined, how I should not have been recognised, how I'm not cooperative, how I'm toxic for this RP and whatever else. I do not go out of my way just to spite people, but if people think they can just ignore me and do whatever despite my stated policies, you think I'll send them a fruitbasket and a thank you card?

 

Now, to get to Mogar, I must say, I agree with TBM. This is an OOC issue by now and it has become one quite some time ago. And unless this is solved also on the OOC level, the IC will not get any better. Because ICly, it will just become a Sino-Japanese enmity and mutual revanchist feelings that will unload themselves in IC and OOC attacks. And it is a OOC enmity for a reason. I joined this RP requesting China. I got scaled down by the community in my claim and when all things seemed settled, I went to sleep, with the promise that within two days, when GMs are elected, the matter would be taken care of. Within one night, I got to see that jesbro was now around Shanghai, taking quite a bit of the more valuable land of my claim, but fine by me, I'm not going to hate on jesbro for that. While jesbro has told me that he thinks I'm too extreme and while he openly is plotting to backstab Horo and me, I think noone can say I have behaved unreasonably towards jesbro. However, what also happened was that someone in Japan thought they'd use the time to just claim Taiwan and Hong Kong, among other things. Mogar, you were there when I laid out my claim, you know what was said and it should be neither surprising that already the following day I pressed hard for being added, but also that I asked for being coloured on the map and that I ICly oppose your move with pretty much everything I got. Sure, you were there before me, but I don't think you can call this kind of behaviour of yours friendly. And likewise, I decided to not be friendly as long as you squat on land that you pretty much claimed in the night between my claim and between my DoE.

 

Of course, ever since then I get to hear the occassional "Eva and Horo will roll me", "Eva is unfriendly", some other potshots and I really do not feel like you got any intention to be friendly. Yet you call me uncooperative when from the moment I join I'm viewed with suspicion and 75% of the time I'm getting highlighted in #cnrp2, it's you taking shots on me. Not that I'm going to roll you fully just for that, but can anyone tell me why I should be friendly towards you?

 

The best part truely was yesterday though, when things actually flared up to the level that the community at large got so annoyed that we now got this OOC thread to deal with issues. That is, after hours of debate in #cnrp2 and prior to that in #ria where you practically made every effort from threatening to leave to stating I was metagaming this RP together with my loyal puppet Horo to calling me names. Then you stated I'm uncooperative and unreasonable, just to back away from a peace deal due to a random line from Triyun in #cnrp. Reasonable? Hardly. You pretty much just insulted me thereafter and we had to start from square one, just like every other time we finally had a deal you backed out.

 

What do you expect me to have for you?

 

Sympathy? Yeah, no. You pretty much took land I already claimed while I waited trusting you and TBM to sort things out without issues, then you made a great fuss about how Taiwan and Hong Kong are not chinese, bringing up a retarded timeline and your own version of interpreting the special relationship between Taiwan, Hong Kong and the PRC and you go out of your way to paint me as a "toxic person". Did I nuke you? Yes. I got nuked before I nuked you and I got nuked thereafter, a grand total of 23 nukes. Yet I didn't create a major fuss yesterday threatening to leave, to rage on you and to call your allies puppets. I stood quiet, hoping you'd get off whatever you were on and stopped behaving like a spoiled asshole.

 

Respect? Hell, no. As it stands, you seemingly can't sort out things IC without resorting to rage OOC to the point the community at large sees it fit to intervene. You tell me to go and whine to "daddy Triyun"? Who is it that whined all night yesterday about me being an uncooperative bitch?

 

Honestly, I'm done with working on a peace deal until you actually start behaving properly. As long as you just keep spouting lines about how I'm all that's wrong with this RP and as long as every peace deal we arrive at holds for less than 10 seconds because you feel it's a major loss of face and Triyun will mock you for it (hate to break it to you, but you make a clown out of yourself already enough by behaving the way you do now), there's no point in trying to negotiate. If you feel it better to have us nuke each other into oblivion, be my guest. If you don't want to deal with me, feel free to actually leave, to get me kicked by community vote or behave like mature individual without crying to Rota, Rudolph and Hereno.

 

Also, I see nothing wrong with me working together with Horo. We are two people, our stats are capped, It's not like we got assets that are so overwhelmingly powerful it could actually break the game. If we coordinate our foreign and security affairs, that shouldn't be that big a deal, more like it's what one could expect of actually close allies. and even if we behave like one country, it's still two people, who have to deal with each other before dealing with the outside world. You think Horo is my puppet? For being a puppet you don't want to know to what lengths I need to go to make any concession to you without having Horo rage at me, so well, talk about puppeting and loss of face. And if you think we are too large, how about you build a coalition? We aren't Triyun and Cent uncapped. With France and Tikal, who sent you support you already outnumber us, so where's the issue, apart from that we are unfriendly to you and thus Tricent incarnate?

 

So, lastly, I'm just going to follow my IC position of keeping Japanese imperialism out of China, disregarding your OOC sentiments, until you either can actually make me care or people think I should be kicked, because honestly, I don't think this RP should just run on who can whine the loudest and threaten to quit most credibly.

[PresidentDavid]

So, after a good few hours of sleep, I'll just say that this whole mess is just embarrassing and a disaster. I am pretty calm, but I had a good few chuckles yesterday reading the hours worth of lines peace dealings and whatnot that were on the level of a bad joke and quite honestly, this deserves the mockeries it gets from Triyun, because some people are so hung up on CNRP, how could Triyun respond in any other fashion?

 

For one, get the timeline straight. The sole reason we are rolling with god knows how many years in the future is because a select few can't get over the old CNRP timeline and need to incorporate it into their history. Is the CNRP timeline this marvelous that we need to have it? No, it isn't. And if you really wanted to be a seperate RP, then make a clear cut, not treat this as CNRP without Tricent. You could very well use a RL scenario with about two decades of decline and warfare, instead of adding a millenia or two to make the past not matter. Sure, it means that some people can no longer claim that Taiwan is equidistant to Japan and China, but honestly, that's not just not true (Taiwan in Tianxia was still part of China and not of Japan, which did not even include the seperately governed Ryukyus), but it also is pretty retarded and I feel like it is just a bad excuse for making ridiculous claims.

 

Next, can we stop with this "toxic person" crap? It's a label that not only is used for branding people we don't like, but it also is applied in the most selective manner possible. As long as much of this RP community runs on hatred over CNRP, this won't go anywhere. If anything is toxic here it is the anti-CNRP circlejerk that has gone way too far and should be cut back in order for a more positively defined identity of this RP. We did manage to move towards constructive dialogue, before yesterday the backlash came. Also, for your information. For all the "They talk more about us than we talk about them", #cnrp isn't even half as much talking about you as it is the other way round, not to even talk about the quality of emotions in that talk.

 

Third, I do think the notion of not utterly destroying others' RP has value, but can we stop pretending this has to be sugar and rainbows? yes, I did make some aggressive statements, doesn't mean I was wiping out whole countries. I say sorry to Kevz maybe (though it is his own decision to let his President die and not to retcon), but all others involved pretty much had it coming. When France colonises stuff in the Pacific and Mogar makes moves on China, naturally I'm not going to sit back and nod it off, when it's against my IC beliefs (which I clearly stated before). If you want to take me on about that ICly, feel free to, got no issue with that. But instead I can read through hour long whining about how I should not have joined, how I should not have been recognised, how I'm not cooperative, how I'm toxic for this RP and whatever else. I do not go out of my way just to spite people, but if people think they can just ignore me and do whatever despite my stated policies, you think I'll send them a fruitbasket and a thank you card?

 

Now, to get to Mogar, I must say, I agree with TBM. This is an OOC issue by now and it has become one quite some time ago. And unless this is solved also on the OOC level, the IC will not get any better. Because ICly, it will just become a Sino-Japanese enmity and mutual revanchist feelings that will unload themselves in IC and OOC attacks. And it is a OOC enmity for a reason. I joined this RP requesting China. I got scaled down by the community in my claim and when all things seemed settled, I went to sleep, with the promise that within two days, when GMs are elected, the matter would be taken care of. Within one night, I got to see that jesbro was now around Shanghai, taking quite a bit of the more valuable land of my claim, but fine by me, I'm not going to hate on jesbro for that. While jesbro has told me that he thinks I'm too extreme and while he openly is plotting to backstab Horo and me, I think noone can say I have behaved unreasonably towards jesbro. However, what also happened was that someone in Japan thought they'd use the time to just claim Taiwan and Hong Kong, among other things. Mogar, you were there when I laid out my claim, you know what was said and it should be neither surprising that already the following day I pressed hard for being added, but also that I asked for being coloured on the map and that I ICly oppose your move with pretty much everything I got. Sure, you were there before me, but I don't think you can call this kind of behaviour of yours friendly. And likewise, I decided to not be friendly as long as you squat on land that you pretty much claimed in the night between my claim and between my DoE.

 

Of course, ever since then I get to hear the occassional "Eva and Horo will roll me", "Eva is unfriendly", some other potshots and I really do not feel like you got any intention to be friendly. Yet you call me uncooperative when from the moment I join I'm viewed with suspicion and 75% of the time I'm getting highlighted in #cnrp2, it's you taking shots on me. Not that I'm going to roll you fully just for that, but can anyone tell me why I should be friendly towards you?

 

The best part truely was yesterday though, when things actually flared up to the level that the community at large got so annoyed that we now got this OOC thread to deal with issues. That is, after hours of debate in #cnrp2 and prior to that in #ria where you practically made every effort from threatening to leave to stating I was metagaming this RP together with my loyal puppet Horo to calling me names. Then you stated I'm uncooperative and unreasonable, just to back away from a peace deal due to a random line from Triyun in #cnrp. Reasonable? Hardly. You pretty much just insulted me thereafter and we had to start from square one, just like every other time we finally had a deal you backed out.

 

What do you expect me to have for you?

 

Sympathy? Yeah, no. You pretty much took land I already claimed while I waited trusting you and TBM to sort things out without issues, then you made a great fuss about how Taiwan and Hong Kong are not chinese, bringing up a retarded timeline and your own version of interpreting the special relationship between Taiwan, Hong Kong and the PRC and you go out of your way to paint me as a "toxic person". Did I nuke you? Yes. I got nuked before I nuked you and I got nuked thereafter, a grand total of 23 nukes. Yet I didn't create a major fuss yesterday threatening to leave, to rage on you and to call your allies puppets. I stood quiet, hoping you'd get off whatever you were on and stopped behaving like a spoiled !@#$%^&.

 

Respect? Hell, no. As it stands, you seemingly can't sort out things IC without resorting to rage OOC to the point the community at large sees it fit to intervene. You tell me to go and whine to "daddy Triyun"? Who is it that whined all night yesterday about me being an uncooperative !@#$%*?

 

Honestly, I'm done with working on a peace deal until you actually start behaving properly. As long as you just keep spouting lines about how I'm all that's wrong with this RP and as long as every peace deal we arrive at holds for less than 10 seconds because you feel it's a major loss of face and Triyun will mock you for it (hate to break it to you, but you make a clown out of yourself already enough by behaving the way you do now), there's no point in trying to negotiate. If you feel it better to have us nuke each other into oblivion, be my guest. If you don't want to deal with me, feel free to actually leave, to get me kicked by community vote or behave like mature individual without crying to Rota, Rudolph and Hereno.

 

Also, I see nothing wrong with me working together with Horo. We are two people, our stats are capped, It's not like we got assets that are so overwhelmingly powerful it could actually break the game. If we coordinate our foreign and security affairs, that shouldn't be that big a deal, more like it's what one could expect of actually close allies. and even if we behave like one country, it's still two people, who have to deal with each other before dealing with the outside world. You think Horo is my puppet? For being a puppet you don't want to know to what lengths I need to go to make any concession to you without having Horo rage at me, so well, talk about puppeting and loss of face. And if you think we are too large, how about you build a coalition? We aren't Triyun and Cent uncapped. With France and Tikal, who sent you support you already outnumber us, so where's the issue, apart from that we are unfriendly to you and thus Tricent incarnate?

 

So, lastly, I'm just going to follow my IC position of keeping Japanese imperialism out of China, disregarding your OOC sentiments, until you either can actually make me care or people think I should be kicked, because honestly, I don't think this RP should just run on who can whine the loudest and threaten to quit most credibly.

 

Well-written. I'm kinda sad I wasn't in it but well-written.

[Uberstein]

Maybe it's just because I've been able to get along with Eva in the past, or because I saw Mogars ranting over irc, but I can certainly see Eva's point.

I feel that if we want to make this rp work, we need to "forget" cnrp1. Ever watch the yogscast play civ5? They go though several different games but giant bullshit betrayals and alliances happen purely because "oooh you nuked me last game so this game I have a grudge."

Cnrp2 is a fresh slate. We won't make progress if we cling to what happened in cnrp1, and being vindictive and petty about it won't help either. Sure, we can remember, but it should be in the capacity of "how do we make cnrp2 objectively better", not "how do I get revenge."

Triyun and Cent both hold that the only reason people don't like them is because people want to be them; that there will always be a land eating hegemony. I for one don't want them to be right about that. But maybe I'm just being stupid and idealistic.

[Hereno]

Rudolph, Mogar, and I all brought up the timeline issue in #cnrp2 yesterday, and how we need to stop this being a continuation of CNRP. That would require some people altering their backstories, and should have already been settled, but it would indeed solve the problems with "Taiwan is Japanese/Chinese " shit that is just confusing and gas for the fire. I don't think anybody is surprised by the revelation that this disagreement is OOC-based and I mostly agreed with Eva's essay. There's nothing inherently wrong with allying a neighbor and working together on military actions. I mean, TBM and I have done a lot of anti-imperialist shit in Africa together and before this RP had never really communicated before. And yeah, Mogar did pretty much grab up the tigers quick before Eva got to play, but at the same time, though, none of these 50k+ people would be here if it weren't for Mogar pushing things through, so painting yourselves like victims for that is just too much.

 

I think the in-game mechanic that does need to be looked at apart from the timeline, though, is these untraceable nuclear subs that can shit out nukes. Zoot, I know you like to RP subs and insist that only you have this power to magically nuke China with no immediate consequence, but frankly your actions were dumb at best (ICly) and I think the entire thing needs to be canned. And Kev, if you actually want your shit to be dead then that's your prerogative, but frankly I don't think Eva, Horo, Mogar, and Jesbro should have to be stuck with most of their RP wiped because you're taking a fit and want to punish them IC. Sorry, but after your tantrum on IRC yesterday calling people names and whining over a perfectly reasonable IC challenge from Horo/Eva, it's hard to see this as anything but you trying to fuck them over without overtly doing it. Eva and Mogar are wrong for letting OOC cross into IC and you are as well.

 

One of the big challenges here is that half of the GM team and half of the "appointed adviser" team on IRC were involved in this, with only Rudolph and now Markus as intermediaries. Any peace deal brokered between Zoot, Eva, and Mogar was destined to just end in this because all three of them were responsible for the ridiculously stupid rapid escalation that led to everything being a problem. That said, I think this thread is bounds and leaps better than IRC arguments as far as getting good ideas out on the table and actually solving the problems before us, first and foremost among them being the timeline issue.