The Taiwan Crisis

[Beauty]

Hello,

 

Please discuss the Taiwan Crisis here.

 

Peace Discussion Logs (Eva/Mogar/Zoot)

Edited May 31, 2014 by Rotavele

[Rudolph]

With regards to the current shenanigans and situation that occurred in the Asian region of CNRP2, it has come to light for the community as a whole to discuss the situation, analyze it and come with a solution the current 'crisis' in that particular region.

This thread should be used as a guiding stick and should it come down to it, to a poll for what the community as a whole will do with the GM's enforcing that decision.

[Shave N Haircut]

The whole thing, in my opinion, is ridiculous and deserving of Retcon, however, since those involved seem to not want that, there are other solutions, but, most of these solutions require the cooperation of both parties, and it's looking like that is highly unlikely. So, what's left is war, and for this to be settled outside the game; It's looking like the second is most likely.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Shave N Haircut

[Hereno]

I think we should retcon it. Failing that, we could as a community write a peace treaty that all parties would have to have already agreed to recognize prior to our decision.

[Evangeline Anovilis]

Well, going from what Mogar, Zoot and I discussed before, my offer remains the following:

• Hong Kong rejoins China.
• Taiwan is put under joint administration of Horo and Mogar. They both have equal rights to the civil population.
• All parties involved accept that fundamentally, Taiwan is part of the Chinese nation. This would be like the One China understanding in existence IRL and be in line with IC policies.
• Taiwan is to be demilitarised and only a police force under the command of the joint civil administration keeps the peace there.
• In case the Empire of China collapses, the duties of Horo will pass to me. If we both collapse, the island goes fully to Mogar.
• In case Japan collapses, Taiwan becomes fully Chinese.
• China (Horo and me, jesbro if he wants too) and Japan enter a Non-Aggression Pact.
• New! China ceases the Splendid Asia doctrine and will just care if people take Chinese soil or threaten Chinese people or trade routes.

This way, I think China can keep its notion of One China without having to give up any claims to its lands. Mogar can RP in Taiwan, and noone gets to use the island as a military base. Mogar gets a NAP so he has some basis to work with that I in fact am not Triyun's puppet sent to punch him and with this last clause, you can go and gobble land up elsewhere. As long as it isn't threatening China, I'm not treaty-bound to assist or you are doing anything dumb like closing off the Strait of Malacca, I'm not going to care. I think that should be fair enough and it meets the actual objective, that is, you can be imperialist, but not within China. It shouldn't be that hard to stay out of this, and I'd also not just randomly take Japanese or other nation's stuff.

 

Also, said so before, if there is a retcon, I'm fine with that, if not, I'll roll with that.

[Markus Wilding]

In my opinion, the entire thing should be retconned starting from the firing of the missiles by the Chinese. That was a gross overreaction and really shouldn't have happened, and please don't argue about that for the love of God.

[Evangeline Anovilis]

Also fine by me.

[Shave N Haircut]

Eva's terms

[spoiler]

Well, going from what Mogar, Zoot and I discussed before, my offer remains the following:

• Hong Kong rejoins China.
• Taiwan is put under joint administration of Horo and Mogar. They both have equal rights to the civil population.
• All parties involved accept that fundamentally, Taiwan is part of the Chinese nation. This would be like the One China understanding in existence IRL and be in line with IC policies.
• Taiwan is to be demilitarised and only a police force under the command of the joint civil administration keeps the peace there.
• In case the Empire of China collapses, the duties of Horo will pass to me. If we both collapse, the island goes fully to Mogar.
• In case Japan collapses, Taiwan becomes fully Chinese.
• China (Horo and me, jesbro if he wants too) and Japan enter a Non-Aggression Pact.
• New! China ceases the Splendid Asia doctrine and will just care if people take Chinese soil or threaten Chinese people or trade routes.

This way, I think China can keep its notion of One China without having to give up any claims to its lands. Mogar can RP in Taiwan, and noone gets to use the island as a military base. Mogar gets a NAP so he has some basis to work with that I in fact am not Triyun's puppet sent to punch him and with this last clause, you can go and gobble land up elsewhere. As long as it isn't threatening China, I'm not treaty-bound to assist or you are doing anything dumb like closing off the Strait of Malacca, I'm not going to care. I think that should be fair enough and it meets the actual objective, that is, you can be imperialist, but not within China. It shouldn't be that hard to stay out of this, and I'd also not just randomly take Japanese or other nation's stuff.

 

Also, said so before, if there is a retcon, I'm fine with that, if not, I'll roll with that.

[/spoiler]

A breakdown of what it means for all involved.

[spoiler]

• Point one - Purely goes to Eva in every way, an advantage is not returned to Mogar in any function.
• Point two - Mogar loses out again, downgraded from having full jurisdiction on the island to having joint control.
• Point three - Doesn't do anything, by and large, but is a loss of face, even if it's true, for Japan.
• Point four - Doesn't help anyone really.
• Point five - In combination with point six, is a blatant advantage to the Chinese because it requires both of them to collapse for it to mean anything.
• Point six - See point five.
• Point seven - Finally one that makes sense, it keeps both parties off of each other but again, taken in combination with the above points means that there's no opportunity to regain what was lost.
• Point eight - An actually serious concession, but does not nearly outweigh the loss of territory or face by the Japanese government, and by and large gains them nothing in the long run. This is more of a concession to nations who are not Japan than it is to Japan itself.[/spoiler]

I'm trying to be unbiased here, but I know that it will appear otherwise since I am personally involved in the conflict. If anyone can come up with a good set of counterpoints, I'd love to hear them.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Shave N Haircut

[Beauty]

Well, going from what Mogar, Zoot and I discussed before, my offer remains the following:

• Hong Kong rejoins China.
• Taiwan is put under joint administration of Horo and Mogar. They both have equal rights to the civil population.
• All parties involved accept that fundamentally, Taiwan is part of the Chinese nation. This would be like the One China understanding in existence IRL and be in line with IC policies.
• Taiwan is to be demilitarised and only a police force under the command of the joint civil administration keeps the peace there.
• In case the Empire of China collapses, the duties of Horo will pass to me. If we both collapse, the island goes fully to Mogar.
• In case Japan collapses, Taiwan becomes fully Chinese.
• China (Horo and me, jesbro if he wants too) and Japan enter a Non-Aggression Pact.
• New! China ceases the Splendid Asia doctrine and will just care if people take Chinese soil or threaten Chinese people or trade routes.

This way, I think China can keep its notion of One China without having to give up any claims to its lands. Mogar can RP in Taiwan, and noone gets to use the island as a military base. Mogar gets a NAP so he has some basis to work with that I in fact am not Triyun's puppet sent to punch him and with this last clause, you can go and gobble land up elsewhere. As long as it isn't threatening China, I'm not treaty-bound to assist or you are doing anything dumb like closing off the Strait of Malacca, I'm not going to care. I think that should be fair enough and it meets the actual objective, that is, you can be imperialist, but not within China. It shouldn't be that hard to stay out of this, and I'd also not just randomly take Japanese or other nation's stuff.

 

Also, said so before, if there is a retcon, I'm fine with that, if not, I'll roll with that.

 

So basically Mogar wants Taiwan and Hong Kong, as do you.

 

So you get Hong Kong, and Horo (Who is basically you too) gets joint control of Taiwan with Mogar. You also have Taiwain recognized as China's Fundamentally.

 

So basically you get 3/4 of what you wanted, and Mogar gets 1/4 of what he wanted. As well as Taiwan is still fundamentally belonging to China. So you get about 4/5 of what you wanted and Mogar gets 1/5 of what he wanted. This looks like a surrender treaty, not a compromise.

 

Also you can call me bias all you want, but both of you don't like me and I don't really care for either of you either.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Rotavele

[Mogar]

I'm not going to add much input. because I behaved rude and out of line, and I apologize for doing do, as such I will accept whatever terms the community feels are fair for this to be over.

 

From my perspective I am bending over backwards to attempt to get peace and getting nothing that actually benefits me in return, and then after having to agree to what as Rota put it, is basically a surrender treaty, and then getting essentially mocked for it, I got incredibly frustrated at the process.

[Evangeline Anovilis]

• Point one - fully correct, this goes fully to me, as it is a mainland Chinese holding and is in every part Chinese.
• Point two - Noone loses out on Taiwan, as currently it's occupied by both forces and in a war the outcome isn't decided yet. Joint administration gives equal influence to both.
• Point three - A legal matter entirely and has no implications for the facts that exist on the island.
• Point four - Mogar complained about it being used as a basis to attack him. While my ships from Guangzhou can reach him just fine, as can my aircraft and missiles, I'm willing to demilitarise Taiwan, just so it won't become a base for the conquest of Japan.
• Pount five and six - succession clauses. Given that unless Horo and I are kicked from the RP (which would happen at the same time anyway) we are most likely staying there and I have no idea was Mogar plans, it is pointless to say it gives much of a real advantage.
• Point seven - Most likely for the best that it is there.
• Point eight - Japan can take the Indonesian archipelago or whatever, if this goes through. And honestly, what's worth more, Taiwan or Indonesia? Sure, others can abuse it as well, but that's mostly profitting the likes of you, his allies.

[Mogar]

I don't want Indonesia though. I clearly stated before you ever came into this RP the claims I had were as expansive as I really had any interest in.

[Hereno]

I think these are a lot more reasonable:

1. Hong Kong rejoins Eva's China.
2. Taiwan is released from Japan as an independent protectorate of all 3 Chinas and Japan, with a unanimous vote of all surviving protectors in order to annex the island or remove protection.
3. China recants the "Splendid Asia" doctrine.
4. All parties enter into a NAP that can only be cancelled after at least 10 IC years have passed.

[Beauty]

 

• Point one - fully correct, this goes fully to me, as it is a mainland Chinese holding and is in every part Chinese.
• Point two - Noone loses out on Taiwan, as currently it's occupied by both forces and in a war the outcome isn't decided yet. Joint administration gives equal influence to both.
• Point three - A legal matter entirely and has no implications for the facts that exist on the island.
• Point four - Mogar complained about it being used as a basis to attack him. While my ships from Guangzhou can reach him just fine, as can my aircraft and missiles, I'm willing to demilitarise Taiwan, just so it won't become a base for the conquest of Japan.
• Pount five and six - succession clauses. Given that unless Horo and I are kicked from the RP (which would happen at the same time anyway) we are most likely staying there and I have no idea was Mogar plans, it is pointless to say it gives much of a real advantage.
• Point seven - Most likely for the best that it is there.
• Point eight - Japan can take the Indonesian archipelago or whatever, if this goes through. And honestly, what's worth more, Taiwan or Indonesia? Sure, others can abuse it as well, but that's mostly profitting the likes of you, his allies.

 

 

Why not do Hong Kong like you do Taiwan then. That would be more fair. Make Hong Kong fundamentally Japanese.

 

 

I think these are a lot more reasonable:

1. Hong Kong rejoins Eva's China.
2. Taiwan is released from Japan as an independent protectorate of all 3 Chinas and Japan, with a unanimous vote of all surviving protectors in order to annex the island or remove protection.
3. China recants the "Splendid Asia" doctrine.
4. All parties enter into a NAP that can only be cancelled after at least 10 IC years have passed.

 

That would give Eva more benefits to come in over Taiwan.

 

Also there is no IC timeline of years.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Rotavele

[Shave N Haircut]

(Eva's stuff)[spoiler]

 

• Point one - fully correct, this goes fully to me, as it is a mainland Chinese holding and is in every part Chinese.
• Point two - Noone loses out on Taiwan, as currently it's occupied by both forces and in a war the outcome isn't decided yet. Joint administration gives equal influence to both.
• Point three - A legal matter entirely and has no implications for the facts that exist on the island.
• Point four - Mogar complained about it being used as a basis to attack him. While my ships from Guangzhou can reach him just fine, as can my aircraft and missiles, I'm willing to demilitarise Taiwan, just so it won't become a base for the conquest of Japan.
• Pount five and six - succession clauses. Given that unless Horo and I are kicked from the RP (which would happen at the same time anyway) we are most likely staying there and I have no idea was Mogar plans, it is pointless to say it gives much of a real advantage.
• Point seven - Most likely for the best that it is there.
• Point eight - Japan can take the Indonesian archipelago or whatever, if this goes through. And honestly, what's worth more, Taiwan or Indonesia? Sure, others can abuse it as well, but that's mostly profitting the likes of you, his allies.

 

[/spoiler]

Reply!

 

So basically, you're admitting that there is only one piece of the treaty that gives anything to the other party, and that it's nothing they want, and only works if they choose to use it?

[Evangeline Anovilis]

I'm not going to add much input. because I behaved rude and out of line, and I apologize for doing do, as such I will accept whatever terms the community feels are fair for this to be over.

 

From my perspective I am bending over backwards to attempt to get peace and getting nothing that actually benefits me in return, and then after having to agree to what as Rota put it, is basically a surrender treaty, and then getting essentially mocked for it, I got incredibly frustrated at the process.

You get mocked by Triyun. Can't help you there.

 

There's like two things that matter and why I am so steadfast here:

• Your reason to claim it is because it is part of the five asian tigers. That's not much of a claim. ICly, the only claim are a few relief workers. For the same reasons you could claim pretty much a lot of other lands that could give you economic advantages. I meanwhile see it as a reunification of Chinese lands and in that regard, I can't just annex say Vietnam and say it is Chinese. So, essentially, the conflict is not diametrically opposed lines, but your interests conflict with mine only in so far it concerns Chinese territory. It is thus that I opened a third way for you to make up for this by annexing whatever else that isn't Chinese.
• Will you get more out of it by continuing the war? Even if it wasn't nuclear?

[PresidentDavid]

Well, how y'all settle peace is your buisness. But I think this nuclear war is regretted by everyone so I think it should be retconed.

 

1. This nuclear war should be retconed.

 

2. New rule for nuclear weapons.

A nation may only use nuclear weapons against another nation who has them IC. 

 

 

I think this proposal is simplistic enough.

[Hereno]

Well, how y'all settle peace is your buisness. But I think this nuclear war is regretted by everyone so I think it should be retconed.
 
 
I think this proposal is simplistic enough.

I think the war will end up being retconned since everybody wants it to be, but that proposal wouldn't have stopped this war so I don't see what the point of proposing it is. Eva, Horo, and Mogar all have nukes in-game.

[Beauty]

I'd like to go ahead and remind everyone of my ideas:

 

• Eva and Mogar get an equal amount of Soldiers only to fight as Japanese and Chinese Nationalists in Taiwan. Winner takes all. (Or hong kong, whatever).
• The Joint Protectorate from several other nations as well as China and Japan.
• Taiwan and Hong Kong are independant and several nations invade China and Japan to replace Nuclear Rogue Leaderships who are responsible for the Mass Murder of 80,000,000 People.
• Eva gets Hong Kong, Mogar Gets Taiwan.
• I re-roll as Taiwan and Hong Kong.

 

Well, how y'all settle peace is your buisness. But I think this nuclear war is regretted by everyone so I think it should be retconed.

 

 

I think this proposal is simplistic enough.

 

Well because Nuclear Weapons are an advantage. That's like not letting a nation wither higher tech use better weapons because the smaller tech nation can't use them.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Rotavele

[Shave N Haircut]

I think the war will end up being retconned since everybody wants it to be, but that proposal wouldn't have stopped this war so I don't see what the point of proposing it is. Eva, Horo, and Mogar all have nukes in-game.

He's more talking about the Philippines, who took some nukes as well.

[PresidentDavid]

I'd like to go ahead and remind everyone of my ideas:

 

• Eva and Mogar get an equal amount of Soldiers only to fight as Japanese and Chinese Nationalists in Taiwan. Winner takes all. (Or hong kong, whatever).
• The Joint Protectorate from several other nations as well as China and Japan.
• Taiwan and Hong Kong are independant and several nations invade China and Japan to replace Nuclear Rogue Leaderships who are responsible for the Mass Murder of 80,000,000 People.
• Eva gets Hong Kong, Mogar Gets Taiwan.
• I re-roll as Taiwan and Hong Kong.

 

 

Well because Nuclear Weapons are an advantage. That's like not letting a nation wither higher tech use better weapons because the smaller tech nation can't use them.

 

No it gives players the option of participating in nuclear war. I have nukes IG, but it is my choice to have them IC or not. Nuclear weapons inhibit RP and do no good for it. 

 

However if it is done this way, then players who don't want to participate in nuclear war cannot inflict it onto others but wont have it forced onto them. This way, larger nations who only have nukes so that others don't nuke them will no longer have a need for their nukes. From what I've seen, the only people that like nukes are trolls, sore losers, and Zoot.

Edited May 31, 2014 by PresidentDavid

[Beauty]

 

No it gives players the option of participating in nuclear war. I have nukes IG, but it is my choice to have them IC or not. Nuclear weapons inhibit RP and do no good for it. 

 

However if it is done this way, then players who don't want to participate in nuclear war cannot inflict it onto others but wont have it forced onto them.

 

Handle it ICly not OOCly. If you don't want to be nuked, don't piss of a nuclear nation. That is the lesson in real life. They're heavily destructive and were made that way for a reason.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Rotavele

[PresidentDavid]

 

Handle it ICly not OOCly. If you don't want to be nuked, don't piss of a nuclear nation. That is the lesson in real life. They're heavily destructed and were made for a reason.

 

I guess you just ignored the part about trolls and sore losers :v

[Mogar]

 

You get mocked by Triyun. Can't help you there.

 

There's like two things that matter and why I am so steadfast here:

• Your reason to claim it is because it is part of the five asian tigers. That's not much of a claim. ICly, the only claim are a few relief workers. For the same reasons you could claim pretty much a lot of other lands that could give you economic advantages. I meanwhile see it as a reunification of Chinese lands and in that regard, I can't just annex say Vietnam and say it is Chinese. So, essentially, the conflict is not diametrically opposed lines, but your interests conflict with mine only in so far it concerns Chinese territory. It is thus that I opened a third way for you to make up for this by annexing whatever else that isn't Chinese.
• Will you get more out of it by continuing the war? Even if it wasn't nuclear?

 

And this is where we disagree because of our drastically different backstories. If by a few you mean 20,000. I could claim another place but they're not of the same economic level as Taiwan would be, as literally one of the greatest manufacturing nations in the world. You could easily annex Tibet if you wished to expand, or actually RP out your two nations becoming one instead of the half assed relationship you currently have but that would mean actually justifying the fact your leaders are siblings somehow in charge of two dramatically different political entities. I could annex alot of things but they don't provide me with the commonwealth goal I had intended, due to me having to dramatically change a nation in order to suit what I would require.

 

Would you get more out of this by being a nuclear rogue state? I can prove I did not press the button first.

 

I think the war will end up being retconned since everybody wants it to be, but that proposal wouldn't have stopped this war so I don't see what the point of proposing it is. Eva, Horo, and Mogar all have nukes in-game.

I do not want it retconned because we put ourselves into this mess in the first place, perhaps RPing for the next month rebuilding will give Eva some consideration of how to be more diplomatic with her neighbors, and me to do the same, neither of us acted maturely or purely ICly, i support the nukes happening as a form of punishment.

 

I'd like to go ahead and remind everyone of my ideas:

 

• Eva and Mogar get an equal amount of Soldiers only to fight as Japanese and Chinese Nationalists in Taiwan. Winner takes all. (Or hong kong, whatever).
• The Joint Protectorate from several other nations as well as China and Japan.
• Taiwan and Hong Kong are independant and several nations invade China and Japan to replace Nuclear Rogue Leaderships who are responsible for the Mass Murder of 80,000,000 People.
• Eva gets Hong Kong, Mogar Gets Taiwan.
• I re-roll as Taiwan and Hong Kong.

 

 

Well because Nuclear Weapons are an advantage. That's like not letting a nation wither higher tech use better weapons because the smaller tech nation can't use them.

1) we would have to establish fair weaponry.

2) Reasonable

3) I can prove my leadership acted in self defense

4) reasonable

5) it would at least give her a reason to maintain the naval patrols

 

I do think we need a nuclear rule, but tbm and I had thought we could go another week without global thermonuclear war.

 

He's more talking about the Philippines, who took some nukes as well.

And had his leader killed even after leaving.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Mogar

[Beauty]

 

I guess you just ignored the part about trolls and sore losers :v

 

Because you editted that in after I posted. Also just because someone threatens nuclear weaponry doesn't mean their trolls. It can be strategic. Also I'd like to threaten nuclear weapons in a closed door meeting to get my way. That's not trolling, it's bargaining tbh.

 

 

 

1) we would have to establish fair weaponry.

2) Reasonable

3) I can prove my leadership acted in self defense

4) reasonable

5) it would at least give her a reason to maintain the naval patrols

 

I do think we need a nuclear rule, but tbm and I had thought we could go another week without global thermonuclear war.

 

 

1) That would be cool as long as you can agree on it. Im just afraid that every battle will have a "YOU CAN'T DO THAT" kind of argument.

2) Option 1 then.

3) Yes but the point is to get the islands away from both of you equally.

4) Option 2 Then.

5) I would patrol too then.

 

The nuclear discussion needs to stop here. It's a discussion for another day or another thread. This is about the Taiwan Crisis.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Rotavele