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Reflections


Sarah Tintagyl
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A large amount of vitriol has taken over the forum in the past few days and as a community we have all taken part in this back and forth argument, which I think has been the major problem of the community since I joined in 2008. Before I move into the main part of my reflection and hope for the future, I would like to say that the nostalgia that some have for the past years of role play is unfounded. No white space existed in the past and as much as Triyun and Cent hold reigns as hegemons now, Martens and Mudd did similar moves to protect their national interests in their immediate territory and around the globe. People refused to sit down and have discussions then, resorting to yelling and the occasional separate RP made by Maelstrom. These issues, however, can I think teach a lot about how to solve the problems facing CNRP now and perhaps lessen the destructive discourse that is happening between those of +50k nations outside of CNRP2 and those who might want to join.

 

Many people have said that the map in CNRP is broken and personally I find it extremely bloated. Right now, CNRP has been reduced to really eight to ten players, maybe less with Markus, Kevz, and others posting more regularly in CNRP2. From what I have gathered, the concerns that TBM and Mogar, and many other smaller national players have argued is that the current hegemony, run by Triyun and Cent, destroy creativity, keep players from doing what they would like to accomplish in the game, and maintaining a global presence on every continent. While this makes sense from a realist perspective, if we think about the United States, the United Kingdom, or France from a geopolitical standpoint, I think CNRP is finished with realism.

 

The map needs reduced and players who hold "attractive spaces" need to re-evaluate their position. Russia spans a massive amount of territory, but I argue that Justinian, Melech, and Impy do not need traditional Russia to do their RPing. If the integrity of Russia is prime, then perhaps other people could be allowed to join as the Russian superstate. The same argument can be made for Triyun, Cent, and MGL. I would ask all these players to significantly reduce their holdings. Triyun's role play deals mainly with the Mongolian and Han Chinese civilizations and should remove himself from Britain, the Middle East and most, if not all of Western Asia and the Caspian regions. Indochina also could be made white, Japan would need to probably be re-evaluated because of the "attractiveness" of the territory. I speak from experience, for when I owned Japan as the Hansa, I had five people ask for it the day I got it, along with a rather long letter from a player stating how her entire role play depended on her ownership of Japan.

 

Attractiveness is part of CNRP, it makes the sight of super-empires in Russia, Asia, and Europe seem threatening. As long as I can remember, Germany, Russia, and Japan have always been the most  highly contested areas, while Sub-Saharan Africa and other territories are filled with Japanese characters, German military officers, and Russian adventures. Yawoo writes less and could reduce his holdings in Germany, say to Bavaria, or Prussia proper. Iamthey, could reduce significantly from Austria. Cent could reduce significantly as well, opening up perhaps France and maybe even parts of the Iberian Peninsula. This will make the map less bloated, more invited to new and present players, and perhaps breed better stories through interaction.

 

However, another side exists to this. Before I started writing this, Cent opened up some of his territory and Rotavele moved in, and my assumption is to make a troll nation then quickly move away. While the big players are at fault for making the RP bloated, the smaller players are also at fault for crying when they encounter difficulty. Dillion is a great example of this in CNRP2 already, Mara during her time in Alaska constantly clashed with players over ability and skill, leading to long arguments in #cnrp. These happen, but there should be responsibility on both sides. Yes, the big players have fault for showcasing their forces and threatening. The smaller players also are at fault for going into discussion from a zero-sum attitude. "If I don't get what I want. Then I quit." Further, the troll nations need to stop and should not be recognized. I believe firmly in first, second, third, fourth...etc. chances, but only if you will write seriously for the benefit of the community. If you're just looking to troll, that's fine, though I really do hope you're younger than 18, otherwise it's just not attractive at all. Actually, it's never attractive. You're on an internet forum, you're not Voltaire, try wit, not troll.

 

Now, perhaps these changes will be for naught because CNRP2 will remove the need for CNRP as it is more active and has more players. I am under the assumption, which I feel is fairly accurate that CNRP2 was made to remove Triyun and Cent from the community completely. This is wrong. Triyun and Cent are not Mao, Pol Pot, Hitler, or any megalomaniac, sociopathic, dictator. They're people between 18 - 30 who play a game in the manner of realpolitik, it's Machiavellian, but it works. While it may be different from what I imagine, I am not convinced that after 45 days or so, Triyun and Cent will every be allowed in the CNRP2 community and will be exiled forever. To make their case, we write stories, and stories require an antagonist. Uberstein has said before that the writing on these boards are mediocre. I disagree. I think most people on here write well and have great contributions, but for large sweeping global narratives, which we like to remember so fondly, come with an antagonist. Beyond the fictional element, people need to be able to communicate better. We may not all like each other, but at times, for the good of the community and in public, we should try to take a deep breath, and realize, we both want the same thing, a good story. We get too attached to maps, and numbers, and pride, that we forget the potential of creating good stories to tell people later.

 

If that is the case, I would like to implore TBM and Mogar who have crafted CNRP2 to instead think about complete recognition of larger players. While this would need worked out, I think that the community can still work and with the new amounts of people who have come in, has the potential to continue to keep our creative traditions alive.

 

I use stories as an umbrella term and hope that those who want to make cities, write fanfictions, design tanks, and so forth, realize that all these things come together.

Therefore, I make a plead to the community that I have been apart of, for better or worse, nearly six years. Let's work together to not divide ourselves, create nasty relationships, and destroy something we've worked for. Perhaps it is time for a new story in CNRP, but it would be one that I hope we can build together into one great narrative, instead of reducing ourselves to constant flamewars and attacks, both personal and professional. 

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nah I wont be a prick.

 

explain to me how the behavior that tricent have shown over the past 3 years is healthy to a community, up to and including the multiple OOC rolling even after promising to cut out that !@#$, openly supporting such actions and using their hegemony to ensure there will be no defense against said actions.

 

your exact line of "well stories need antagonists" is fine, but all empires fall, and neither of theirs ever will so long as they are allied because they are both by far the most talented at war RP.

 

I am under the assumption, which I feel is fairly accurate that CNRP2 was made to remove Triyun and Cent from the community completely. This is wrong.

attacking people because you dont like them OOC is wrong too, there is no where on the map I could reroll and be left alone in.

Edited by Mogar
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My personal checklist.

  1. Ignore problems can complaints
  2. Provide compromise
  3. Continue as before while having fooled the rest that things would changed. We all know it was not my fault and admitting I did something wrong would probably give me bad health or something.
Edited by xoindotnler
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While I agree that Triyun and Cent have engaged in OOC/IC crossing, their presence has not been detrimental to the community for the past three years. There are instances of OOC/IC crossing that have happened and that have no doubt hurt people's role plays, but I would argue that those role plays need to be examined completely from beginning to end to see if the entire ordeal was illegal and why it became illegal and what were the problems that stemmed from it. 

 

If, however, we focus on those instances, we also need to focus on the larger narratives that Athens and Tianxia have established in these three years. The sheer need to ban or reduce their countries show the central part both players have in the construction of a CNRP narrative. Their participation and their existence as either a rallying point for hegemons or a bulwark to oppose by the resistance, shows their positive affect on the game. The question that we have to ask, are we going to look at a long term narrative as what the community needs or individual RPs that are sacred?

 

If the latter, then what is required is a lessened map footprint and more focus on individual national and character RP.

 

If the former, then we as a community could work together with all the players to provide a healthier environment, along with the GMs having not a more powerful rule from a judicial standpoint, but a more advisory role from a moderator standpoint.

 

Discussion is key. 

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It's ridiculous to think that any serious degree of new people would ever want to join CNRP when the map is so thoroughly dominated by two factions. This is the very reason I didn't join it in the first place and frankly I find Triyun to be rather appalling in his behavior from what I've glimpsed. Even if CNRP2 is merely the lesser of two evils, I'll take it gladly.

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In my opinion the map is the worst thing to ever happen to cnrp. Get rid of it, even for a trial period, and see what happens. I don't know why we're so reliant on it if cnrp is supposed to be about fantasy writing, then why does the map matter?

 

Secondly, loosen up the rules. we depend on the tech/infra scale to tell us what to do. Here's a tech scale for you 1-1million tech = Batman Tech.

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It's ridiculous to think that any serious degree of new people would ever want to join CNRP when the map is so thoroughly dominated by two factions. This is the very reason I didn't join it in the first place and frankly I find Triyun to be rather appalling in his behavior from what I've glimpsed. Even if CNRP2 is merely the lesser of two evils, I'll take it gladly.

 

 

I must concur with this.

 

I've looked at the map IN CNRP, and being completely new to RP, as I don't write from a single perspective ever when I write anything, it would have made it hard for me to learn, and or keep any land. CNRP2 has been very easy to get into, I didn't have to beg anyone for land, or go to someone and ask to be a protectorate (if that's a thing). I was simply allowed to claim land, and I was able to start RPing my first time ever in CN with relative safety because I wouldn't have a 100k nation being next to my 25k nation, so I quite enjoy the cap on NS. 

 

 

Why must there be one map? It seems CNRP1 has run it's course, and I think CNRP2 will run it's course, and eventually be bogged down my RP super nations, thus we move onto CNRP3, where it'll be a whole new game. Or say after a year of RP, we wipe the map completely clean, and start over. If the idea is just to RP, and have fun, I see no reason not to restart a new nation, or just RP as the leader, and see if you can do anything different. 

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While I agree that Triyun and Cent have engaged in OOC/IC crossing, their presence has not been detrimental to the community for the past three years. There are instances of OOC/IC crossing that have happened and that have no doubt hurt people's role plays, but I would argue that those role plays need to be examined completely from beginning to end to see if the entire ordeal was illegal and why it became illegal and what were the problems that stemmed from it. 

 

If, however, we focus on those instances, we also need to focus on the larger narratives that Athens and Tianxia have established in these three years. The sheer need to ban or reduce their countries show the central part both players have in the construction of a CNRP narrative. Their participation and their existence as either a rallying point for hegemons or a bulwark to oppose by the resistance, shows their positive affect on the game. The question that we have to ask, are we going to look at a long term narrative as what the community needs or individual RPs that are sacred?

You are completely disregarding the fact that IC/OOC crossing should not be allowed, nor is it ever justifiable. the problems that stemmed from most of them were realistically people LEAVING THE COMMUNITY, which according to your argument is exactly what you're trying to prevent, yet I didn't see you raising a voice of dissent about any of these lulz wars that simply forced people out of their own lands without any provocation from the defenders, the recent takeover of the british isles for example. which btw Triyun, very great job making that "open" RP, definitely way more interesting than anything LKFHT would have been doing.

 

Tianxia and Athens "won" CNRP over the past 3 years, very good for them, but when are they going to actually allow someone else to have a chance at taking that mantle, as you said on IRC, yeah people asked for Cent and Triyun to simply fight each other, because simply by giving people a genuine choice between the two sides, rather than the illusion of choice that occurs now, something might actually change rather than the stagnation that has happened over these past 3 years. Every other person that has gotten a "hegemon" position did not consolidate their power to that extent, mudd and martens may have been powerful but both were easily taken down, that is not the case with Tricent due to their continued OOC relationship ensuring any resistance fails long before it gained enough traction to put up the 2 year RL war that would be required to get triyun or cent to lose a war in any meaningful form.

 

The question that we have to ask, are we going to look at a long term narrative as what the community needs or individual RPs that are sacred?

 

how about popular opinion that one or two nations should not rule the entire world?

If the latter, then what is required is a lessened map footprint and more focus on individual national and character RP.

Personally I've done this, and written more in the past three weeks of character RP than the rest of CNRP combined over the past three months.

 

If the former, then we as a community could work together with all the players to provide a healthier environment, along with the GMs having not a more powerful rule from a judicial standpoint, but a more advisory role from a moderator standpoint.

That would mean certain players actually agreeing their behavior is toxic to game health, and changing that behavior to actually want a better game, not simply want to say they won the game.

 

Discussion is key.

Discussion is what led to the creation of CNRP2.

Edited by Mogar
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Mogar I didn't order a hit on you.  I celebrated it, cause of all your shit on IRC.  But I didn't order it on you.  Vektor wanted to expand, and I didn't stand in the way of it.  That's it.   Believe it or not I don't care all that much about you, other than I got really fucking annoyed that you kept highlighting my name on IRC with insults.

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Mogar I didn't order a hit on you.  I celebrated it, cause of all your !@#$ on IRC.  But I didn't order it on you.  Vektor wanted to expand, and I didn't stand in the way of it.  That's it.   Believe it or not I don't care all that much about you, other than I got really !@#$@#$ annoyed that you kept highlighting my name on IRC with insults.

you want to be the villain, I call you out on it, you don't like it? show you're actually a decent human being and defend the little guy instead of seeing their throat as a good place to put your boot.

 

 

Sarah if you want to genuinely reflect, you should start by reflecting on why so many people decided to nearly instantly join a new world without those two, and why the main arguments anyone had who were over the NS limit were not actually "well golly gee you guys are just excluding us all!" but more "Why won't you let ME join this?"

Edited by Mogar
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Many people have said that the map in CNRP is broken and personally I find it extremely bloated. Right now, CNRP has been reduced to really eight to ten players, maybe less with Markus, Kevz, and others posting more regularly in CNRP2.

I'd post, if I'd not be busy and at war. And no, I'm still competent enough to not be stalling. But stuff isn't moving and so I'm here, RPing in China, because, hey, why not? I don't really have any issue with Triyun apart from a few smaller matters. I mean I talked with you already before about things, so you should understand what I mean.

 

Anyway, I'd not think CNRP is dead. It's just that CNRP2 is extremely active. Whether it'll sustain these levels and how it'll go on is to be seen, but I think it is still far too soon to jump to conclusions. I'd say, just let things run their course, time will show. If this leads to two seperate RPs, not like there's much of an issue with that.

 

As a last point, I have given up on arguing about why Triyun is not the devil. It's not like I'm going to join in the sentiment that I don't share, but I've got better things to do than to try convince a dozen people, a few of which I could not convince in the past in discussions about actually more important stuff, that they should not be hating on Triyun. All I discuss is that 50k+ NS people be allowed in in some way or form that is not giving them the feeling they are hated just due to having larger nations, but otherwise...

 

Discussion is what led to the creation of CNRP2.

I don't think Sarah is talking about seperate discussions in private.

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Any attempts made in #cnrp to discuss the problems with CNRP went nowhere, mostly of triyun crying about how he is somehow the victim of all this hatred and how he has never done anything to deserve the vitriol that is thrown against him. From my perspective, Tricent was given a clear and explicit warning of a massive rift growing amongst the CNRP community when they were voted off the map and into noncanon, instead of modifying their behavior in any form, they simply made a promise to behave better that lasted all of a month, and since then there has been three wars fought by their OOC friendship clique without real IC CBs or provocation, the UN has been shown to clearly be a joke and merely a tool of Tricent to maintain a further stranglehold on CNRP, since I know Vektor would have been attacked had Triyun not explicitly stated no one was to assist me.

 

You wish to fix CNRP? I wish you all the best luck in doing so, but for me CNRP2 solves every single problem I have with CNRP, and I don't have to worry about getting warred for naming my ships using a conventional Japanese naming method, or simply breathing someone else's oxygen.

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In my opinion the map is the worst thing to ever happen to cnrp. Get rid of it, even for a trial period, and see what happens. I don't know why we're so reliant on it if cnrp is supposed to be about fantasy writing, then why does the map matter?

My continuing opposition against CNRP's map is longstanding and well documented.

I also blame all of the ongoing current problems on the darn map.

Geography squabbles are completely to blame for these community divides.

I am honored to stand with you on this Justinian the Mighty.

Edited by Generalissimo
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I didn't say no one was to assist you I said no one was to use my waters to do do. I just denied access. In #cnrp no I'm not a villain. You acting like I am is out of line. That's an ooc channel for people to chill in. At worst you can say I make a lot of Colbert type jokes. Ic is different and harsh words belong ic. #cnrps is basically a congressional bar where you go to have a beer after calling each other horrible names at work. But if you have a big problem about work out of work with me I ask you ask me politely. Bit at work (ic) feel free to call me satan. I see it the same as partisan politics in the us you just have to be able go be passionate about your views and disagree without being so vicious out of work.

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I didn't say no one was to assist you I said no one was to use my waters to do do. I just denied access. In #cnrp no I'm not a villain. You acting like I am is out of line. That's an ooc channel for people to chill in. At worst you can say I make a lot of Colbert type jokes. Ic is different and harsh words belong ic. #cnrps is basically a congressional bar where you go to have a beer after calling each other horrible names at work. But if you have a big problem about work out of work with me I ask you ask me politely. Bit at work (ic) feel free to call me satan. I see it the same as partisan politics in the us you just have to be able go be passionate about your views and disagree without being so vicious out of work.

 

"Plotting bad, mkay?"

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"ask me politely but I will never actually  answer a query."

 

In seriousness explain to everyone why you have not exhibited a single sign of actually wanting to change your behavior, when there is a total of 4 people of 30+ that actually think the way I play adds anything positive to the community? you had plenty of warning that there was a MASSIVE rift in this community when you were nearly wiped from the map, did you think all that anger was just going to be forgotten?

 

I'll even admit sarah's idea for you, cent and russia to drop half or more of your land is an excellent first step, but until you treat this as a collaborative game and not one in which you HAVE to win, nobody is going to want to play in a sandbox with you. you wear that in your sig as a badge of honor, when it just ensures every single person who tries to get into this community knows exactly the type of bully you are.

Edited by Mogar
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I can go back and look but I don't think I've gotten a query from you since the vektor thing or earlier.

Chill seriously about the rift thing. Also I tend not to talk on query to more than a few people much but in cnrp I think I do. That includes close allies. Pretty much Sarah shammy and cent are the only ones I talk to. And that's not in small part cause they're pleasant to talk to. Pm me if you have something pressing.

People have complained about white space and I just did that in the Mid East and as I said other territorial give aways are being decided.

What I don't like is you turning a conversation about anything into Triyun is evil which is what you did. For example people were joking about anime stereotypes and you used the opportunity to attack me well before vektor even rolled you. That's not appropriate. You could try chewing the fat and see what I'm like then. :p

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I can go back and look but I don't think I've gotten a query from you since the vektor thing or earlier.

Chill seriously about the rift thing. Also I tend not to talk on query to more than a few people much but in cnrp I think I do. That includes close allies. Pretty much Sarah shammy and cent are the only ones I talk to. And that's not in small part cause they're pleasant to talk to. Pm me if you have something pressing.

People have complained about white space and I just did that in the Mid East and as I said other territorial give aways are being decided.

What I don't like is you turning a conversation about anything into Triyun is evil which is what you did. For example people were joking about anime stereotypes and you used the opportunity to attack me well before vektor even rolled you. That's not appropriate. You could try chewing the fat and see what I'm like then. :P

 

 

You seem much more conciliatory than you last did. 

 

 

Won't last. 

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I haven't made an attempt to query you since then because there's no point in attempting to do so in my experience with you, of the dozen or so times I have queried you in the past 4 years I believe you have replied twice.

 

I can call it whatever you'd like, but the OOC/IC blurring you have used to maintain your dominance of CNRP is unhealthy. I answer any and every query that people make to me because if someone wishes to speak they deserve the right to be heard out, but irrelevant of how calm of an argument anyone makes against you or cent "ruining" the game, your response is going to be "do something about it." guess what? we did.

 

People have complained about white space for two years, and now suddenly that people are being given a choice, you're actually ceding something in hopes that people will become complacent again, I do not forget the last time you two had your backs against the wall and how you promised to change, you didn't that time, what the $%&@ is going to make anyone believe you will this time?

 

What I don't like is being attacked for no reason, and realistically going to be completely genocided off the map simply for actually trying to build something giant. You don't want to be seen as evil? Don't support evil, Do not commit evil, and act against anyone who is being a griefer. not there there really is many that aren't #nordic. I call you out on every occasion I can find because most of this community is far too afraid of being rolled for speaking out against you, consider me Vox Populi.

 

I transcended your world a while ago, I just did not realize it until Vektor attacked me. If you as a person wish to contribute to a healthy community that actually wants you as a participant you need to reflect on how your behavior affects this community Triyun, the same goes for you Centurius.

Edited by Mogar
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