Let's talk this out guys

[Horo the Wise Wolf]

The best way to make embargos would be to use the honor system and we all know how well that works in cnrp.

That is the only way - you can't have percentage decreases because we don't know what goods the embargoed country is missing out on due to the embargo. Furthermore, they could (and private businesses would) just buy the goods from countries they aren't embargoed in.

[Triyun]

So you admit that your guilty of what's been accused of you and what is your plan to fix it?

Also you've been accused of these things personally for way over the past year. However now that you realize that there are consequences and people will get you, you're playing mister apologetic and diplomatic. Where was this side of you before?

You knew about all of these problems and that you were doing wrong, but you didn't care enough to fix them because you had no one to answer to. I do hope you realize that says a lot about your character.

 

Nobody is guilty of anything there are misunderstandings for the most part.  Villification such as this is unhelpful.  I will not apologize.  Especally cause as demonstrated last night to most of #cnrp half the stuff I'm accused of either isn't unique to me by a long shot or I haven't done.

 

This thread is supposed to be about a constructive conversation with people who want to be constructive instead of destructive.  

 

Considering the OOC you inject both in terms of CN politics you know nothing about, and knowing for a fact you've queried players with flat out lies and character assassinations not even relating to CN, you don't count as one of those players.  

[Evangeline Anovilis]

They have expelled players from their nations over minor and perceived slights.
They have ruled the game with utter fear and tyranny that prevents players from the maximum enjoyment. 
They have restricted the entrance of people into their protectorates so that the resulting players will be completely subservient to their whims.
They have generated a culture of superiority amongst themselves, leading to rudeness when addressing people both in and out of character.
They have lolteched a system of invulnerability into the military, leading to futile resistance and the removal of players from their current roleplays.
They have usurped the governments of many players, forcing them to be completely subservient to their tyrannical regimes.
They have refused to interact with the greater community outside of dull treaty posts.
They have stolen Sarah from the rest of us, causing us to interact with sub-par players.
 
In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury and responses to do something about it IC. Players whose characters are thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, are unfit to be the ruler of a free role playing game.

• People rolling others over some slight is neither news, nor is it restricted to just two people. Nor can I say that Triyun is any less friendly than some of the people that are not adressed here. Of four times I myself felt more or less pressured to leave, one was Triyun/Sarah (Croatia), one was Cent (France) and two were coalitions of people that are backing the split of the RP. Not to make a lot of drama about my case, but we should not attribute everything that's wrong to just them.
• Of the three actual 'vassals' Triyun has, at best Curri can say he was pressured into it. And I don't know whether he looks that oppressed. I willingly signed up for what I am, and the handfull restrictions that exist are mostly there to ensure I don't go Tojo and start oppressing people, as well as a couple restrictions so that Tianxia-Japan ties don't cause a diplomatic clusterfuck. We have not had any issues up to now...
• 'Refused to interact' makes me wonder what you are thinking of here.
• I feel insulted by that last accusation of yours.
• Alternatives?

While I cannot speak for everyone, I don't care about all your land except for the Russian land that you illegally occupy.  Nobody is saying that you shouldn't fight people who are off ethnically cleansing people (although it really should be done by people in the general region, not you all the way around the world), but short of that, try to cut people more slack.  Condemn actions, urge for moderation, send a PM to the person telling them to knock it off, all these things should come before any military action.  Also, if someone wants to roll or reroll in your land/protectorate, try not to be so constricting on them.  Filling the world with mini-triyuns isn't fun for anybody.

If the general region doesn't do it, then it is part of being a superpower to stop troublesome developments. Regardless of where. Of course, the US also does not invade every country in Africa that undergoes genocidal strife, but that's because there's too much effort and too little reward involved. And before I rerolled, the Americas had at least three countries which were not freedom-loving liberal democracies embracing Triyun and Cent. Aggron got rolled for nukes (and we did ask before), I rerolled, Lynneth is still there.
 

I for one, support the total and complete reform of the war system. You should not need to spend endless hours studying Military Science to be able to reasonably compete in a role playing forum. Some people are always going to be better at fighting wars, that's a given, however the level of technological sophistication involved in some of these posts is far too out of the grasp of many involved in CNRP.
 
War system needs to be user friendly.
War system needs to be easy to use.
War system needs to be designed in a way that takes out part of the griping. (You'll never stop all of the griping, so I wouldn't insist on people trying.).
War system needs to a system where objective analysis takes place over subjective analysis. I don't care one jot or tittle what the GMs think about the squiggles and sqauggles of future technology. I do care that they have a system in hand to allow them to make a judgement based on objective facts and not speculation.
 
Get rid of any technology older than 2013.
 
Create advantages in size of air force and navy due to infra versus due to technology and then close the technology gap from 2013 to 2000.
 
Bigger nations get more toys because they are bigger and can afford to build them.
 
Smaller nations get less toys because they are smaller.

How are GMs to filter between fact and speculation according to your proposal?
 
Is this some sort of advanced aircraft multiplier?

Last, I've come to the opinion that as no one here rps economy in any great detail we've done ourselves a disservice. Many problems in cnrp could be rped out via an embargo. I want some sort of roll system put into place that decides just how much a nation's abilities to field modern equipment deteriorates over time due to an embargo. If the embargo is insufficient to close all the holes, then the rolls should reflect that in favor of the embargoed nation, if the forces arrayed are sufficient the rolls should favor the nation/nations doing the embargo.
 
Those be my thoughts on all of this.

 While not necessarily approving of the form, I think having some economic baseline would help. We talked about this already once.
 

Honestly I don't mind sizing down the techscale, what I would propose is to go with something like from 1990 to 2020 on a logarithmic scale. Within that timeframe even the lowest tech nation gets at least 4.5 gen planes and even early F-22s while the highest tiers can not go beyond a 5th gen fighter with some slightly better enhancements and control system. We also have a solid idea of what is available in 2020 and all of it is very easy to wikipedia(they're all concepts in advanced stages of implementation already). What I would request is a certain transitionary period to be implemented. I for example am not going to have the time to rework all my technology in the upcoming 2 and a half weeks by virtue of having finals and I do think it will be difficult for every piece of tech to be downgraded from 2030 to 2020 in just a few days.

Personally, I prefer this over 2000-2013. Or you do a scale ranging from x-15 to x+5 years, so it always gives a reasonable window where noone wanders off too far into the future and noone falls back into the cold war, while it keeps updating every year.

 

Transition period should be a given.

TBM with your embargo I think it's actually going to give larger nations a more significant advantage than they already do as Athens for example through its access to various minerals and fuel sources could quite easily live through and embargo and with Africa being a protectorate it would be impossible to blockade all my sources of the resources. Aztlan for example wouldn't be that hard to blockade. I'm not sure what war system you have in mind but I'm interested in the more simplified war system and look forward to your proposal.

I'd think the idea of an embargo is worth supporting, more because it gives a way for powers to exert sanctions that hurt, but don't oust them.

 

[hr]

 

I'd also like to note that I am a bit disappointed by certain people not reading RP, then starting to complain about it. While I know, not everything's great and there are issues, some issues just don't exist. For example, when the UN gets called TSI part 2, where people say there is no conflict and it all is just oppression, then, in my opinion, you miss what the UN in CNRP is. It is no real military bloc, no tool that can be used to maximise oppression and the UN also serves no monolithic bloc. Especially you, Melech, who got entrusted with a diplomatic RP with Shammy, should not be this ignorant. If it was a mere rubber stamp body of a united oppressive regime, we wouldn't spend pages upon pages arguing about whether Poland was correct and got a right on more land or not.

[Triyun]

Embargoes should be from IC actions. 

 

In regards to the vassals, Eva's right it was all voluntary except perhaps Curri who had a free pass when he first rolled into South America (check the map thread claim), then seemed to be asking for Cent's help at counter balancing me (again proves the UN isn't a monolothic tyrannical block) and so I jokingly offered him an ultimatum which he seemed to accept, and then he decided on his own to use military forces, I actually did nothing to force him to attack and have been pretty benevolent.  Horo specifically asked for vassaldom in exchange for learning the ropes something I happily accommodated.

 

In regards to the preemptive wars on borders due to troop movements, which is how the South American thing expanded till the point I said $%&@ it, that is something Shammy is doing right now against Yawoo and you support him (as do I).

 

As I've said in the past I acknowledge in my nation's youth I've done things a bit too heavy handed.  But that was 3 years ago.  

 

On interacting with the greater community, make a thread, I've made tons of open RPs in the past, Sarah and I are the only ones who really post frequently and if someone's only posting ever 3 weeks, I'm not going to wait for that.

 

In regards to Sarah, NEVAH!

 

The embargo stuff still needs to be fleshed out a lot, rather than have math I think its best we do traditional things like enact naval blockades.  Its also worth noting embargoes go both ways if the world say embargoed Saudi Arabia, we'd all feel a lot of pain.

 

In regards to the tech stuff and the infra multiplier I like 2020 with more points for infra multipliers, thats an interesting idea.  Just an FYI for all though tactics will remain in place and most of the stuff I use to win is tactics.  I think a good solution there is for people who really want to become good at fighting is to be nice and ask for help.  The alternative of course is to be a diplomatic power, so basically everyone should choose between being a girly Austria or AWESOME PRUSSIA!

Edited January 15, 2014 by Triyun

[Evangeline Anovilis]

The alternative of course is to be a diplomatic power, so basically everyone should choose between being a girly Austria or AWESOME PRUSSIA!

My choice is obvious.

 

*goes listen to the Radetzkymarsch*

[iamthey]

 The alternative of course is to be a diplomatic power, so basically everyone should choose between being a girly Austria or AWESOME PRUSSIA!

 

 

 

austria.png

Edited January 15, 2014 by iamthey

[Beauty]

Nobody is guilty of anything there are misunderstandings for the most part.  Villification such as this is unhelpful.  I will not apologize.  Especally cause as demonstrated last night to most of #cnrp half the stuff I'm accused of either isn't unique to me by a long shot or I haven't done.
 
This thread is supposed to be about a constructive conversation with people who want to be constructive instead of destructive.  
 
Considering the OOC you inject both in terms of CN politics you know nothing about, and knowing for a fact you've queried players with flat out lies and character assassinations not even relating to CN, you don't count as one of those players.

You're not helping proving your case with this post. Just saying. Good Riddance.

[KaiserMelech Mikhail]

Though no matter what happens on the military front, I'll keep my SCIENCE RPing up. That's the only thing keeping me here aside from a few specific persons and I don't wanna lose either.

I hope you do keep up with that. It doesn't hurt anyone else, and makes things interesting.
 

Honestly I don't mind sizing down the techscale, what I would propose is to go with something like from 1990 to 2020 on a logarithmic scale. Within that timeframe even the lowest tech nation gets at least 4.5 gen planes and even early F-22s while the highest tiers can not go beyond a 5th gen fighter with some slightly better enhancements and control system. We also have a solid idea of what is available in 2020 and all of it is very easy to wikipedia(they're all concepts in advanced stages of implementation already). What I would request is a certain transitionary period to be implemented. I for example am not going to have the time to rework all my technology in the upcoming 2 and a half weeks by virtue of having finals and I do think it will be difficult for every piece of tech to be downgraded from 2030 to 2020 in just a few days.

I completely agree with you here. However, it does require community approval for such a drastic change, so a voting thread will need to be set up, but I do endorse your tech proposal.

I will also agree that in the past we have rolled people against their will for less than honest motivations. I am willing to restrict my wars to cases of defence or the obvious triggers like nuclear threats, genocide and similar.

That's pretty much what we've been asking. Things are working out! Huzzah!

When it comes to protectorates, I'm not sure I really have unreasonable expectations and most of them are built around avoiding a war with one of my former protectees. Just to list them; no giving away land(more specifically aimed at giving other continents bases), no crazy governments(as in not fascist genocidal or stalinist kill everyone) and if you go inactive the land reverts to me. If someone has specific objections to any of these I am willing to reconsider them. Beyond this I can only think of Rotavele and ishabad who I've actually denied land however if there is a popular movement to see them back I am also willing to reconsider that provided the same restrictions get followed.

I'd like to see Ishabad and Rota back, if for no other reason than it gives smaller players some war practice.

As for rp'ing with others, that is a two way street. I am perfectly willing to rp with others and even opened a free area to roleplay in in the past. However few people took up that possibility and I can't exactly beg for someone to roleplay with. So if you had something in mind or just want to RP something in my territory. Send me a query or pm and we'll talk.

Yeah, those free RP places weren't very good in the past, I'll go with you there. However, there is always MIGHTY RUSSIA to RP with. Also, you don't need to necessarily beg, just find someone you think you have a good story for and propose it. We'll be sure to do the same.
 

In regards to the vassals, Eva's right it was all voluntary except perhaps Curri who had a free pass when he first rolled into South America (check the map thread claim), then seemed to be asking for Cent's help at counter balancing me (again proves the UN isn't a monolothic tyrannical block)

Then you should do more Cold War-style proxy wars and have people running around chanting BETTER DEAD THAN RED. That works on both levels because Cent is communist and you're red on the map.

Horo specifically asked for vassaldom in exchange for learning the ropes something I happily accommodated.

Yeah, Horo is pretty cool.

In regards to the preemptive wars on borders due to troop movements, which is how the South American thing expanded till the point I said $%&@ it, that is something Shammy is doing right now against Yawoo and you support him (as do I).

I think there is a bit of a difference between Shammy and You, largely in size and power. While an itty bitty shammy could easily face an existential crisis due to a sneak attack, you could easily swat it away. Also, Shammy is our Slavic brother.

On interacting with the greater community, make a thread, I've made tons of open RPs in the past, Sarah and I are the only ones who really post frequently and if someone's only posting ever 3 weeks, I'm not going to wait for that.

I post frequently. :(

In regards to the tech stuff and the infra multiplier I like 2020 with more points for infra multipliers, thats an interesting idea.  Just an FYI for all though tactics will remain in place and most of the stuff I use to win is tactics.  I think a good solution there is for people who really want to become good at fighting is to be nice and ask for help.  The alternative of course is to be a diplomatic power, so basically everyone should choose between being a girly Austria or AWESOME PRUSSIA!

I do believe that this is a sentiment shared by everyone.

[Triyun]

You've asked me not to be in threads Melech :( 

 

Again make a thread I'll join.

 

Now onto the wars, the devils unfortunately in the details you need to observe.

 

In regards to Shammy vs me.  I had no intention of and still have not sending large ground forces proportional to my army, my carriers need to rotate in SA.  From a strategy perspective, preempting them rather than maintaining a costly garrison to eliminate a security threat that outnumbers me in SA made sense in regards to the original.  In regards to the follow on by Zephyr, I wanted to withdraw the forces eventually, Zephyr wasn't responding, but was continuing to make claims to the whole continent, therefore I imposed a blockade of his sea and air space not declared regime change.  At which point Zephyr declared war.  TBM can tell you he and I discussed methods to recover the SAO means of monitoring the SA protectorate that would be established with few military forces garrisoning the continent.

 

Following that, Zephyr who has a significant nation and out numbered me like 10:1 on the ground and had made claims (I honestly didn't read his military till he declared war) that he had developed tech to engage me, so going on the offense to destroy as much of that as possible made sense from a operational and strategic perspective, being nice or being mean didn't enter in.  It was purely what worked best militarily.  The ground forces perilious state only occured when Curri chose to enter in, by then the war had started.  You'll also note I've tried to avoid bombing cities and killing leadership, focusing on his military.

 

Asking me to then comply with Zephyr's rule on tech efficiency is to ask me to follow a rule that we as a community elected to vote down, that's unreasonable.  

[Mogar]

point blank rota, either actually discuss a potential solution that isn't laced with venom or personal attacks, and you might find out both triyun and cent are willing to acknowledge at least some of their past wrongs.

[Markus Wilding]

I would like to say I disagree with the restriction of tech to post-2013, and the condition that anything must be used currently. If I want to use T-55s, I want to use them dammit!

[Mogar]

I would like to say I disagree with the restriction of tech to post-2013, and the condition that anything must be used currently. If I want to use T-55s, I want to use them dammit!

I don't think anyone would stop you from using less advanced tech, I think the goal is to allow nations like yours and mine to at least manage an Iraq level of military power vs a modern america,(25-30 years) as opposed to now which amounts to almost WW2 tech vs iraq era(1985 to 2034 = almost 50 years)

[Markus Wilding]

Ah, that makes a bit more sense then. That I can agree to.

[Evangeline Anovilis]

I don't think anyone would stop you from using less advanced tech, I think the goal is to allow nations like yours and mine to at least manage an Iraq level of military power vs a modern america,(25-30 years) as opposed to now which amounts to almost WW2 tech vs iraq era(1985 to 2034 = almost 50 years)

This.

 

We are discussing tech ceilings here, so if we say 2000-2013 or something, it would mean, the highest tech bracket would get at best 2013 level tech, lowest tech bracket (including no tech at all) would still get 2000 level tech. Just like it is now, you are entitled to every system that is achievable with these means. And if someone wants to fight with sticks and stones, it's well within their technological means. But noone is forced to RP with T-55s, while top tier runs around with an ETC upgunned Leopard 2 or something of the sorts.

[MostGloriousLeader]

A 2020/2025 tech limit would be fine in my opinion.

[Justinian the Mighty]

I feel like we're slowly drifting back toward what we already have.

[lkfht]

So if the tech scale is brought down to idk 2020 (just a guess) at my current tech level of about 550 (due to IG war) what tech level would I have in CNRP?

[Triyun]

2020 is better than 2014 in my opinion because it allows more diversity.  At the moment there are several areas where only the US has a functioning system but other countries are 5-10 years out such as stealth fighters and carriers, that allows for more diversity.

[Centurius]

I'm currently working on a possible logarithmic scale.

[TheShammySocialist]

Not to be a total tech freak here, but I think that 2020 is a good spot to start with.

 

Most of the technology that is being worked on right now, will be available in functioning units by that time, and we see a lot of emerging nations in the world in this day and age, getting more advanced weaponry. The only Fifth Generation combat aircraft available right now, working at full capacity, is the F-22 Raptor, unless you 'make your own', which always brings up the "where did this come from?" argument that seems to be a pitfall around here.

 

To be honest, most of my stuff that I currently use as Poland (and I have a 2030-something technology capability), is in service today, or on the cusp of being in service today, or is going through the final stages of testing and could be theoretically usable right now. Personally, I still plan to continue to develop my own weapon systems if new rules are enforced, but I can readily find and give anyone the information needed to figure out the origin of the technology and the generalized mechanics behind it that are rooted and available in this day and age.

[Generalissimo]

. . . I still plan to continue to develop my own weapon systems if new rules are enforced, but I can readily find and give anyone the information needed to figure out the origin of the technology and the generalized mechanics behind it that are rooted and available in this day and age.

That's continuously been a problem around here.

Does anything within any of the newer proposals cover that?

[Centurius]

That's continuously been a problem around here.

Does anything within any of the newer proposals cover that?

Well, while you can't simply look up the entire plane on a custom design the technology behind it is much easier to find and understand on wikipedia for 2020 than some of the things 2030 designs got from military magazines, papers from the various war colleges, etc.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Centurius

[TheShammySocialist]

That's continuously been a problem around here.

Does anything within any of the newer proposals cover that?

 

The only time it's a problem, is when people don't ask me for the material backing the stuff up, and just go on a tirade about it saying it's magic.

 

I [i]just[/i] got done a smooth discussion with Zoot about weapons technology associated with the war we are fighting. And everything turned out just fine.

 

Its all a matter of people keeping cool heads and asking questions of the person who uses the technology.

[Mogar]

2020 tech would be along the lines of anything that is in prototype now basically, which would allow people to at least read up about it on wikipedia as opposed to having to read actual technological essays, which i think is a good thing.

[Captain Enema]

2020 tech would be along the lines of anything that is in prototype now basically, which would allow people to at least read up about it on wikipedia as opposed to having to read actual technological essays, which i think is a good thing.

 

This times 10, if I have to start reading scholarly journals and such just to decipher and understand some of these posts I'm going to revert to rping with dinosaurs.