CCC Formal DoW (again)

[Commander shepard]

Heh, if this were harsh terms NPO's senior leadership would all be EZI'd and their alliance forcibly disbanded. And their allies would have viceroys and reps.

 

In 2008 NPO didnt mind dealing IAA the harshest terms even though GATO was officially the target. I have no pity for NPO today.

2014 - 2008 = 6

[x Tela x]

I'm really not on anyone's side here. I would just like some clarification, if someone wouldn't mind?

 

NPO has been given terms that include a long-term peace mode status for X nations?

 

If this is true, how is that any different than what NPO is doing right now? (38 of top 40 nations in PM) It seems like either way they're going to lose [i]billions[/i] by being in peace mode. They can do it while at war or after the war as terms. What's the difference if the end result is the same?

[On3H34rT]

I'm really not on anyone's side here. I would just like some clarification, if someone wouldn't mind?

 

NPO has been given terms that include a long-term peace mode status for X nations?

 

If this is true, how is that any different than what NPO is doing right now? (38 of top 40 nations in PM) It seems like either way they're going to lose billions by being in peace mode. They can do it while at war or after the war as terms. What's the difference if the end result is the same?

 

You have a point, which is precisely why Pacifica does not have much incentive to accept these terms. We wouldn't be able to rebuild. So, we might as well do some damage then since either way, we can't put this war behind us.

[Lenny N Karl]

2014 - 2008 = 6

 

This guy gets it.  old grudges are old.  Hanging on to them shows a lack of maturity, sensibility, and also an ignorance that dooms certain leaders in this world.

Edited January 14, 2014 by Lenny N Karl

[Starfox101]

This guy gets it.  old grudges are old.  Hanging on to them shows a lack of maturity, sensibility, and also an ignorance that dooms certain leaders in this world.

You're missing the point. As someone who has been affected by harsh terms NPO set forth, Junka knows first hand what harsh terms actually are, like myself. To repeatedly see Pacificans calling these the harshest ever is ignorant and the only reason the past is brought up.

It doesn't matter how old it is. Every time a Pacifican claims these are the harshest terms of all time, a generation of people facepalm at the ignorance and ego flowing. Edited January 14, 2014 by Starfox101

[gunzzz]

NPO has been given terms that include a long-term peace mode status for X nations?
 
If this is true, how is that any different than what NPO is doing right now? (38 of top 40 nations in PM) It seems like either way they're going to lose billions by being in peace mode. They can do it while at war or after the war as terms. What's the difference if the end result is the same?

Right, the end result is the same. so they can't be too harsh of terms. If NPO was serious in ending this, they would have accepted terms already, them choosing to complain about the terms, rather than accepting them or provide a reasonable counter offer, just demonstrates they want the war to continue .

[Neo Uruk]

Or maybe they think the war won't last quite that long.

[Link Gaetz]

Some people are living in the ancient past.  Or at least when it suits their purposes.

[berbers]

I'm really not on anyone's side here. I would just like some clarification, if someone wouldn't mind?

 

NPO has been given terms that include a long-term peace mode status for X nations?

 

If this is true, how is that any different than what NPO is doing right now? (38 of top 40 nations in PM) It seems like either way they're going to lose billions by being in peace mode. They can do it while at war or after the war as terms. What's the difference if the end result is the same?

 

Well for one thing, since the post-war time in PM is double the war time PM usage, NPO is better off fighting in perpetuity since when the war ends they are subject to twice as long a time in PM.  So if you are saying 1x factor of PM is bad, than a 2x factor is twice as bad?  Or put another way, they may lose Billions by staying in PM during the war, but they will lose 2x Billions by exiting the war...

 

In terms of the comment on the top 38/40 in PM, that's the propaganda your side is using, saying NPO is keeping everything in PM.  As someone who looked at stats quite a bit leading up to this war, I can assure you that NPO has no more than 30% of it's pre-war nations above 50K, which is certainly a savage beating by any account.  So the logical next question is why an AA that has been beaten that badly needs to be punished further to end the war?

 

Edit:  Actually, by "informally" giving terms that couldn't be formally responded too, your coalition locked itself into a weird cycle.  They couldn't back off the "informal" terms without looking like they "backed down" to pressure, but every day that passes creates less of a reason for NPO to accept terms, it's kind of like a snowball :/

 

So in summation, whichever genius linked the length of the war to the severity of the terms needs to be shot.

Edited January 14, 2014 by berbers

[The Zigur]

 
This guy gets it.  old grudges are old.  Hanging on to them shows a lack of maturity, sensibility, and also an ignorance that dooms certain leaders in this world.

Starfox understood my point. I dont have any grudge against NPO, they are merely in the way and need to be neutralized as a threat.

[x Tela x]

 

Well for one thing, since the post-war time in PM is double the war time PM usage, NPO is better off fighting in perpetuity since when the war ends they are subject to twice as long a time in PM.  So if you are saying 1x factor of PM is bad, than a 2x factor is twice as bad?  Or put another way, they may lose Billions by staying in PM during the war, but they will lose 2x Billions by exiting the war...

 

In terms of the comment on the top 38/40 in PM, that's the propaganda your side is using, saying NPO is keeping everything in PM.  As someone who looked at stats quite a bit leading up to this war, I can assure you that NPO has no more than 30% of it's pre-war nations above 50K, which is certainly a savage beating by any account.  So the logical next question is why an AA that has been beaten that badly needs to be punished further to end the war?

 

Edit:  Actually, by "informally" giving terms that couldn't be formally responded too, your coalition locked itself into a weird cycle.  They couldn't back off the "informal" terms without looking like they "backed down" to pressure, but every day that passes creates less of a reason for NPO to accept terms, it's kind of like a snowball :/

 

So in summation, whichever genius linked the length of the war to the severity of the terms needs to be shot.

 

Let me reiterate: I am not on anyone's side here. I asked a question and already got a suitable response. (Actually two, one from each "side") You decided to respond with YOUR propaganda shit. I have no agenda. I have not stated that NPO is wrong for having 38/40 in PM. I was simply stating a fact as it was pertinent to my actual question. Please do not confuse me with any other mindless drones spewing the party line. My party line is my alliance and my allies. That's as far as it will ever go. Echelon is not about to be part of any coalition anytime...ever. It's not as if we're in a position to actually bolster either side significantly if we did join a coalition.

 

And for the record, we entered this war to defend NADC and have since withdrawn when peace was granted on that front. If and when R&R decides to activate our treaty, we will again enter this war - on the OPPOSITE side. We have exactly two allies - NADC and R&R. If R&R wants us, we will assist. So please consider who you're replying to before you spew that shit about peace mode. I don't give a fuck what the current whinetopic or fad is.

 

Lastly, after I've received a bit more information, I wholeheartedly agree that the terms presented are unacceptable. Ridiculous? Naw, but no alliance would take them unless desperate to get out of war for whatever reason.

[Willaim Kreiger]

After the WotC the New Polar Order's top 30 nations were required to pay 75,000 technology in reparations and the top 40 nations of the New Polar Order were required not to send aid to our lower nations for 4 whole months.  I don't have the data to measure the cost of the technology purchased (I was in the top 5 of Polar at the time and sent all of my technology and was forced to continue to purchase more and send it out), but I am sure it was rather large. In addition we were required to remove senior, respected members from government and the alliance itself.  Hell they even attempted to plant a fucking spy as our Emperor.  We were required to decommission all nuclear weapons except 50, to not run a senator, and no one was allowed to leave our AA for a month after the terms were set.  Anyone who believes keeping the Pacific's top nations in PM since they [b]decided they did not want to participate[/b] in the war are the harshest terms ever have clearly not been involved in this game long enough.  

 

My point is not that I want retribution against Pacifica.  These terms were not negotiated by the Pacific, though I am sure they had a few requests thrown in.  I was happy to settle that pound of flesh in Karma and I have since had little to no interaction with them.  It has been rather refreshing after the constant shitshow from 06-08.  My point is that you guys are freaking out about top nations not being able to send aid when, in a different era when most nations who were far LESS prepared to send aid and warchests were far smaller, terms were laid down which were much harsher.  

 

If you guys don't like the terms, it's really easy.  Have your top tier come out of peace mode and fight a bit and we can all walk away.  Assuming they haven't been dropping their collections on hookers and blow for the last 2 months I'm sure they have been able to pad their warchest a bit and should be able to rebuild and send aid like most top tier nations.  But maybe I'm expecting too much from your banks.  Either way, it's whatever.  

 

If you guys wish to keep fighting, by all means do it. Polar has certainly done it when we've found terms unacceptable, I just really find it laughable that they are being presented as the harshest terms in history.  Read a fucking book.

[Rayvon]

After the WotC the New Polar Order's top 30 nations were required to pay 75,000 technology in reparations and the top 40 nations of the New Polar Order were required not to send aid to our lower nations for 4 whole months.  I don't have the data to measure the cost of the technology purchased (I was in the top 5 of Polar at the time and sent all of my technology and was forced to continue to purchase more and send it out), but I am sure it was rather large. In addition we were required to remove senior, respected members from government and the alliance itself.  Hell they even attempted to plant a !@#$@#$ spy as our Emperor.  We were required to decommission all nuclear weapons except 50, to not run a senator, and no one was allowed to leave our AA for a month after the terms were set.  Anyone who believes keeping the Pacific's top nations in PM since they decided they did not want to participate in the war are the harshest terms ever have clearly not been involved in this game long enough.  
 
My point is not that I want retribution against Pacifica.  These terms were not negotiated by the Pacific, though I am sure they had a few requests thrown in.  I was happy to settle that pound of flesh in Karma and I have since had little to no interaction with them.  It has been rather refreshing after the constant !@#$show from 06-08.  My point is that you guys are freaking out about top nations not being able to send aid when, in a different era when most nations who were far LESS prepared to send aid and warchests were far smaller, terms were laid down which were much harsher.  
 
If you guys don't like the terms, it's really easy.  Have your top tier come out of peace mode and fight a bit and we can all walk away.  Assuming they haven't been dropping their collections on hookers and blow for the last 2 months I'm sure they have been able to pad their warchest a bit and should be able to rebuild and send aid like most top tier nations.  But maybe I'm expecting too much from your banks.  Either way, it's whatever.  
 
If you guys wish to keep fighting, by all means do it. Polar has certainly done it when we've found terms unacceptable, I just really find it laughable that they are being presented as the harshest terms in history.  Read a !@#$@#$ book.

I believe the general response from your side would be "these tears are delicious" ..

[Neo Uruk]

After the WotC the New Polar Order's top 30 nations were required to pay 75,000 technology in reparations and the top 40 nations of the New Polar Order were required not to send aid to our lower nations for 4 whole months.  I don't have the data to measure the cost of the technology purchased (I was in the top 5 of Polar at the time and sent all of my technology and was forced to continue to purchase more and send it out), but I am sure it was rather large. In addition we were required to remove senior, respected members from government and the alliance itself.  Hell they even attempted to plant a !@#$@#$ spy as our Emperor.  We were required to decommission all nuclear weapons except 50, to not run a senator, and no one was allowed to leave our AA for a month after the terms were set.  Anyone who believes keeping the Pacific's top nations in PM since they decided they did not want to participate in the war are the harshest terms ever have clearly not been involved in this game long enough.  
 
My point is not that I want retribution against Pacifica.  These terms were not negotiated by the Pacific, though I am sure they had a few requests thrown in.  I was happy to settle that pound of flesh in Karma and I have since had little to no interaction with them.  It has been rather refreshing after the constant !@#$show from 06-08.  My point is that you guys are freaking out about top nations not being able to send aid when, in a different era when most nations who were far LESS prepared to send aid and warchests were far smaller, terms were laid down which were much harsher.  
 
If you guys don't like the terms, it's really easy.  Have your top tier come out of peace mode and fight a bit and we can all walk away.  Assuming they haven't been dropping their collections on hookers and blow for the last 2 months I'm sure they have been able to pad their warchest a bit and should be able to rebuild and send aid like most top tier nations.  But maybe I'm expecting too much from your banks.  Either way, it's whatever.  
 
If you guys wish to keep fighting, by all means do it. Polar has certainly done it when we've found terms unacceptable, I just really find it laughable that they are being presented as the harshest terms in history.  Read a !@#$@#$ book.

The tech reps (at a rate of 3/100) come out to 2,250,000,000. At most, that was worse than these reps in time to rebuild, which you had plenty of due to lighter fighting (no, I'm not saying you didn't fight; you just didn't have quite the hardest front) in Karma. The government term was certainly restricting, as was the top 40 term. I don't know what all this would equal to when adjusted for modern warchests and tech levels, but certainly we can agree that the terms currently offered are ridiculous and no alliance would impose them upon themselves unless desperate.

[Starfox101]

Some people are living in the ancient past.  Or at least when it suits their purposes.

Or, perhaps when other people make completely ignorant statements about the past. Yes, it's old. Does that mean we can wipe it from our memory and buy into the propaganda that these are the harshest terms ever? No.

 

Junior, I spent two years on PZI for being in an alliance that was allied to GATO when they were attacked by NPO. Terms for IAA getting peace sent me to PZI along with Junkalunka. This was following my other time being removed from my alliance and sent to PZI previously for honoring a treaty and participating in GWIII. Am I still angry about it? No. I don't care because NPO took their licks for those actions, so please don't respond to me saying I'm just bitter about the past. The point I am making is that there is no ground to claim these are the harshest terms in CN history. If you stop spouting that ignorant line, we'll stop bringing up the dirty past.

[alyster]

Or, perhaps when other people make completely ignorant statements about the past. Yes, it's old. Does that mean we can wipe it from our memory and buy into the propaganda that these are the harshest terms ever? No.

 

Junior, I spent two years on PZI for being in an alliance that was allied to GATO when they were attacked by NPO. Terms for IAA getting peace sent me to PZI along with Junkalunka. This was following my other time being removed from my alliance and sent to PZI previously for honoring a treaty and participating in GWIII. Am I still angry about it? No. I don't care because NPO took their licks for those actions, so please don't respond to me saying I'm just bitter about the past. The point I am making is that there is no ground to claim these are the harshest terms in CN history. If you stop spouting that ignorant line, we'll stop bringing up the dirty past.

 

 

Why do you even bother after all these countless times? 

 

I mean it's obvious that every war for Pacifica since Karma has been for their survival, at least in their minds. Well aside Dave war maybe where they simply decided to jump the bandwagon. Nevertheless, they know no other rhetoric anymore. Look on the bright side at least we don't have to put up with baby eating jokes anymore.  

 

But I agree with you. Alot of Pacificans here haven't seen what their alliance has done or has been through after that. These terms are rather small nowadays, yet so much whining comes from it. 

Edited January 14, 2014 by alyster

[Caliph]

 

Then why do you feel the need to inflict billions more in damages on NPO?

 

The terms will not inflict any damage on NPO.  What is inflicting damage on NPO is NPO's refusal to participate in peace talks because they think they can wait us out.

[Caliph]

 

This guy gets it.  old grudges are old.  Hanging on to them shows a lack of maturity, sensibility, and also an ignorance that dooms certain leaders in this world.

 

 

 

Some people are living in the ancient past.  Or at least when it suits their purposes.

 

 Absolutely not.  When ignorant people bring up propoganda lines saying these terms for the current war are the "worst in history", well that is blatantly false and that statement must be corrected.  NPO's current propaganda has them constantly playing the victim card against a cold harsh world out there that only NPO and their allies have the cajones to stand up to.

 

These terms are not the most harsh.  You know what was the more harsh than these terms?  2 years of war with the only peace terms given were "disband".  You know what was harsher?  MK's terms in No CB for honoring an MD treaty.  Polars terms were harsher, forced government change and expulsion of members in secret terms.  GPA's terms were harsher in the Woodstock war. 

 

We bring up the past to educate ignorant people trying to tell incorrect information.  I used to be in NPO, I know that they downright spin events to the point where their version isn't even close to the truth.  These terms are nowhere near the worse in history here.

 

We are not living in the past, we are using the past to prove you wrong when you say these terms are the most harsh in the whole of this worlds history.

[alyster]

 

The terms will not inflict any damage on NPO.  What is inflicting damage on NPO is NPO's refusal to participate in peace talks because they think they can wait us out.

 

Look at NPO's aid screens. They send out only troops sometimes and even with such aid they manage to use up only 67 aid slots for roughly 300 members. 

 

TOP and Umbrella each are about 3 times smaller than NPO and each use more aid slots. Not to mention Polar out performing them in aid slot usage. 

 

They don't realize they can't play the waiting game. 

[Neo Uruk]

I mean it's obvious that every war for Pacifica since Karma has been for their survival, at least in their minds. Well aside Dave war maybe where they simply decided to jump the bandwagon. Nevertheless, they know no other rhetoric anymore. Look on the bright side at least we don't have to put up with baby eating jokes anymore.

Do note that in DH-NPO the CB was literally we can't allow NPO to tilt the scales and return to power.

Another good thing to look at would be that, uh, EQ wasn't about survival. But yeah thanks noted political genius alyster.

[alyster]

Do note that in DH-NPO the CB was literally we can't allow NPO to tilt the scales and return to power.

Another good thing to look at would be that, uh, EQ wasn't about survival. But yeah thanks noted political genius alyster.

 

 

Wow you managed to find total of 2 wars in past 4 years that Pacifica didn't cry about survival. This completely changes their imago. 

 

Also DH-NPO wasn't about killing an alliance, just beating it down. And you know that very well, weren't you in DH at the time? But yeah when ever flip flopping suits you. 

Edited January 14, 2014 by alyster

[Neo Uruk]

Wow you managed to find total of 2 wars in past 4 years that Pacifica didn't cry about survival. This completely changes their imago. 
 
Also DH-NPO wasn't about killing an alliance, just beating it down. And you know that very well, weren't you in DH at the time? But yeah when ever flip flopping suits you.

2 wars that were a winning effort, I think I'm pretty good at this.

Keeping from power equals killing them now? Man, whatever floats your boat. We all know DH-NPO was designed to keep NPO from being a power sphere and to suggest otherwise is quite idiotic. Edited January 14, 2014 by Neo Uruk

[Elegarth]

It is sad to see a thread become the discussions among two kinder children...

Welcome to the war, CCC, however late and kind of sadly.

Have fun.

EDIT FOR CLARITY:

Sadly, as in, you missed a lot of it :D No offense intended.

Edited January 14, 2014 by Elegarth

[Vol Navy]

The harshest terms ever faced were NPO in Karma by a pretty wide margin, followed probably by Polaris in WoTC (Ironically imposed by TOP mainly.) 

 

The harshness of them came from the fact that those wars were extremely damaging. Far more so than terms faced by others in non-nuclear wars of the past or the MK terms from WoTC when they only had to fight for about 2 weeks. 

 

It does seem that NPO often gets bent over in excess when they lose a war. Or  get treated like they did in Grudge. I hoped that would end after they went supremely light on everyone last war, to the point of pissing off their own allies. 

 

At this point all the alliances still in, like CCC here, are just getting damaged for little reason other than to try and hurt an extra 38 nations out of the couple thousand at war.

[berbers]

 

The terms will not inflict any damage on NPO.  What is inflicting damage on NPO is NPO's refusal to participate in peace talks because they think they can wait us out.

 

You guys offered, NPO countered, either keep fighting if their offer was unacceptable or bring something new to the table, but all this crying over NPO not negotiating is ridiculous considering their counter-offer was the same ending as the last 3 global wars...