Bob Ilyani Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 Good people do bad things. NG owes you nor anyone else any explanation. I , too, have known Franz a LONG time. He IS a decent fella. But he also is a bit of a drama queen. Meh. The issue here isn't that he got expelled, but that it was done without giving him a chance to defend himself or justify his actions. Habeas Corpus is something we take very seriously in Slavic Empire, and its sad to see an established alliance choose not to practice it. A few months ago, there was a slight issue in TOP, where our government felt that a member had committed an action that justified expulsion from the alliance. Rather than just removing him, they asked this member to provide his own side to the story, after which it was found that the government was incorrect and the individual should not be removed from the alliance. Was it a relatively grievous mistake, and one that was quite embarrassing for everyone involved, including myself? Yes. But I'd rather be found embarrassed than make a false judgement, and NG has decided otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ying Yang Mafia Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 We don't waste our time with your silly democratic ideals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush Sykes Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 Meh. The issue here isn't that he got expelled, but that it was done without giving him a chance to defend himself or justify his actions. Habeas Corpus is something we take very seriously in Slavic Empire, and its sad to see an established alliance choose not to practice it. A few months ago, there was a slight issue in TOP, where our government felt that a member had committed an action that justified expulsion from the alliance. Rather than just removing him, they asked this member to provide his own side to the story, after which it was found that the government was incorrect and the individual should not be removed from the alliance. Was it a relatively grievous mistake, and one that was quite embarrassing for everyone involved, including myself? Yes. But I'd rather be found embarrassed than make a false judgement, and NG has decided otherwise. I would accept your explanation if you even made the slightest effort to play devil's advocate. Instead your entire post was focused from the standpoint that Franz was wronged, because Franz said he was wronged. You told him to find an alliance that treats him more "nicely".. indicating that somehow NG treated him not nicely. You also commented on how weird it was that they seemingly intentionally picked when he wasnt around to discuss removing him. You accepted his story at face value, because you allow your opinion to be jaded by current world politics. And why not. After all, everyone who has ever posted a thread like this has been in the right. Nobody is ever trying to create drama and get attention. Your explanation also specifically says "rather than just removing him...." ... so you made up your mind, based on one post by a drama queen, and took him at his word... that NG just up and removed him without so much as him being able to defend himself. Almost acting as if NG owes you, or anyone else an explanation. Despite the fact that NG gov type folks have already posted here that this was not the case... yet that matters not to you. BECAUSE YOU ARE JADED BY THE CURRENT POLITICAL FLOW. Therefore, NG is wrong and horrible, and the rights of Franz must be defended by the righteous... such as yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franz Ferdinand Posted December 31, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 As a representative of the Tri, I can say with full certainty that Franz has brought this upon himself MULTIPLE times. As Caustic said, we don't kick people out lightly. Franz is guilty of numerous offenses (some offenses would result in an immediate kick in most alliances) in which we've warned him numerous times that he needs to stop doing them. He's also pledged to resign more times than I can count. After his latest offense, the Tri immediately removed him. This business of "he wasn't around to defend himself" is untrue. If anyone requires more information please query/shoot me a PM. This crying and whining was expected. He knows exactly what he did and has done. Just for clarification, me and Tito have had a history of bad blood between us, so his wording isn't really that surprising. From what I can gather after talking with the Triumvirate, the latest offense was a potentially risqué joke regarding my reputation in the alliance along with the supposed banning of Non Grata diplomats from IRON. I no longer have access to the post in question, yet it referred to a "blacklist". Some of the offences which have been levied against me by Non Grata have been trumped up however I accept I did not toe the party line in what internally was called the TOP Incident which occurred between the 4th and the 18th November. What that entailed was that I gave my personal opinion on how the Triumvirate have handled the current war and my views on the Valhalla/IRON diplomatic rift. I have offered to resign a few times in the past, yet for the most part, that was during peace time and mostly legacy stuff when I was going through the motions. After being pulled up by Steve Buscemi for what I did in the embassy, I was removed from diplomatic duties for TOP and told to toe the party line. During these talks, I requested for the revocation of my Non Grata member mask for the duration of the war so that things could settle down. This was denied as Steve believed it was unnecessary. I don't see what I was doing as "crying and whining" as you would call it, more trying to find out where I stood in the world. If it's deemed necessary, I can clarify points of this if desired, however it seems that I am free to go and will not be marked by Non Grata. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the rebel Posted December 31, 2013 Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 Wow, that one went right over your head. Usually I'm the one who misses sarcasm, but even I don't fail that badly. Mine flew over your head too, its okay no hard feelings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Coulson Posted December 31, 2013 Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 So what you all are saying is that if someone does something that their government feels is harmful enough to merit expulsion, but that person claims to be going on vacation before the sentence can be carried out then they should get a stay until they claim to have returned? Do you really want to go there because I am seeing a potential logistical and kind of creepy problem ahead?Short of visiting his presidential palace, the Non Grata government had no real way to see whether Franz was on vacation or not. Maybe he was at his presidential retreat or maybe he was sitting in his office pretending to be gone while trying to avoid having an expulsion levied against him for his actions. If NG started delaying punishments just because the subject said he's be out of town, it could face an unmanageable situation. It's easier to enforce the status quo and say that if someone doesn't want to risk being expelled while they're on vacation, they shouldn't do anything expulsion worthy before they leave. If Franz didn't want to risk being expelled while he was at his presidential retreat, then he shouldn't have spent the two weeks previous repeatedly disregarding the government's orders.This is the basic, "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen," advice. If you don't want to be expelled from your alliance while you're on vacation, then don't pick a fight with your government before you leave. Simple as that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franz Ferdinand Posted December 31, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 So what you all are saying is that if someone does something that their government feels is harmful enough to merit expulsion, but that person claims to be going on vacation before the sentence can be carried out then they should get a stay until they claim to have returned? Do you really want to go there because I am seeing a potential logistical and kind of creepy problem ahead? Short of visiting his presidential palace, the Non Grata government had no real way to see whether Franz was on vacation or not. Maybe he was at his presidential retreat or maybe he was sitting in his office pretending to be gone while trying to avoid having an expulsion levied against him for his actions. If NG started delaying punishments just because the subject said he's be out of town, it could face an unmanageable situation. It's easier to enforce the status quo and say that if someone doesn't want to risk being expelled while they're on vacation, they shouldn't do anything expulsion worthy before they leave. If Franz didn't want to risk being expelled while he was at his presidential retreat, then he shouldn't have spent the two weeks previous repeatedly disregarding the government's orders. This is the basic, "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen," advice. If you don't want to be expelled from your alliance while you're on vacation, then don't pick a fight with your government before you leave. Simple as that. A simply demasking on the forums would have sufficed until I was back, besides it would have also allowed for my actions to be tracked to show I was truly on vacation, besides I was not privy to a definitive sentenced levied my way prior to my departure. By tracking my actions on the forums (of which there would have been zero), they would have known if I was active or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saladjoe Posted December 31, 2013 Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 We don't waste our time with your silly democratic ideals. And this is why your alliance is dying and ours is thriving. ^_^ Also this: They are undeserving of such a fine member. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beauty Posted December 31, 2013 Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 (edited) You are the new OWF Target, Franz. Trust me, it has always looked bad, but you will thoroughly enjoy it soon. Keep posting. I have been around for years for a reason. Edited December 31, 2013 by Rotavele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HM Solomon I Posted December 31, 2013 Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 Mine flew over your head too, its okay no hard feelings. Touché Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HM Solomon I Posted December 31, 2013 Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 (edited) Mine flew over your head too, its okay no hard feelings. Double post Edited December 31, 2013 by HM Solomon I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Buscemi Posted December 31, 2013 Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 So this might be a good place to inform everyone that you can demask Franz as an NG diplomat. Anyway, Franz are proving that we made the right decision by posting this. If you want yet another explanation for something you knew was coming, you can again see us in private. For the record, Franz resigned from his MoIA duties a long time ago because you preferred FA tasks. But enjoy trying to ding NG on OWF PR points. I hear HB likes you, I'm sure they would take you in and make you apart of their FA team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoskia Posted December 31, 2013 Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 CITIZENS OF BOB UNITE IN MASSIVE PROTEST AGAINST NON GRATA'S SECRECY AND LACK OF DEBATE: Planet Bob - December 31st, 2013.Protests were mounting in Planet Bob's Tuesday against a controversial expulsion that would give Non Grata's Triumvir far broader powers in deciding what constitutes an Alliance secret, and severely punish those who ask for information. Thousands of demonstrators have hit the streets to register their anger at the lack of explanations, which comes amid worldwide debate over the Triumvir's secrecy in the wake of the Franz Ferdinand affair. A rally was scheduled for Monday evening in Planet Bob, after organizers said several thousand people turned out to protest Sunday's night at a thread in the OWF. Under the new policy of Non Grata's Triumvirate, information related to defense, diplomacy, expulsions, counter-intelligence and counter-terrorism will all be classified as secret, while Trimvirate members can decide what information to keep from the OWF. Critics argue that Non Grata's policy could mean far more information would be kept from the public, with little oversight. Earlier Sunday, activists in the thread staged a sit-in protest, holding banners that read; “We Oppose Non Grata's Legislation for Protection of Special Secrets”. More rallies are planned for the forthcoming year. The legislation is aimed at plugging Non Grata's notoriously leaky bureaucracy after years of complaints from allies from other Alliances. Steve Buscemi has passionately argued that the secrecy and lack of public information is necessary in order for Non Grata to freely exchange sensitive intelligence with the NPO and the Siths in order to boost national defense, but most of the OWF's media have slammed Buscemi's policy as an overreach, saying it would threaten freedom of the press. “We have pointed out that the secrecy of Non Grata's expulsions are vaguely defined and too broad,” the influential Planet Bob's daily said in an editorial Friday.It added that there was a “sense of mistrust” towards Non Grata's Triumvir who appeared to be expelling Franz Ferdinand with a minimum of debate. The conservative Tywin Lannister, however, argued the legislation was necessary to defend Non Grata's reputation and called on Franz Ferdinand to better explain his expulsion by himself. Meanwhile, protestors in the streets of Bob argued that the protests won't stop until Non Grata's Triumvir accepts and open and honest Q&A with the whole of the OWF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Zigur Posted December 31, 2013 Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 (edited) Non Grata has a long way to go if it wants to restore its reputation. It needs to start fresh this New Year and wipe the slate clean, and abandon its downward spiral of poor policy making. Sometimes it is best to simply come clean and take the necessary steps to show sincerity adjusting to reality. Edited December 31, 2013 by Tywin Lannister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dochartaigh Posted December 31, 2013 Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 I am not sure why everyone is getting their collective panties in a bunch here. It really does not matter what the fuck Franz did or did not do. NG expelled him plain and simple. If you truly do not like what NG did and wish to aid Franz in his plight, then recruit his ass into your alliance. NG is a sovereign alliance, capable of doing whatever they want. No one besides those in NG are able to really make a huge impact on internal decisions of NG. So that being said, good luck to Franz in finding a new home and good luck to NG in weathering the peanut gallery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewie Posted December 31, 2013 Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 When has NG ever cared what the peanut gallery said? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvon Posted December 31, 2013 Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 I hear HB likes you, I'm sure they would take you in and make you apart of their FA team. Right next to the master foreign expert. Oh hey, speaking of: Non Grata has a long way to go if it wants to restore its reputation. It needs to start fresh this New Year and wipe the slate clean, and abandon its downward spiral of poor policy making. Sometimes it is best to simply come clean and take the necessary steps to show sincerity adjusting to reality. Might wanna hang on to a little of that advice, it could help you too. I am not sure why everyone is getting their collective panties in a bunch here. It really does not matter what the $%&@ Franz did or did not do. NG expelled him plain and simple. If you truly do not like what NG did and wish to aid Franz in his plight, then recruit his ass into your alliance. NG is a sovereign alliance, capable of doing whatever they want. No one besides those in NG are able to really make a huge impact on internal decisions of NG. So that being said, good luck to Franz in finding a new home and good luck to NG in weathering the peanut gallery. Exactly - their business.If anyone really has a problem with the expulsion, go start the Franz War. ... If you can really make NG care that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewie Posted December 31, 2013 Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 If anyone really has a problem with the expulsion, go start the Franz War. ... If you can really make NG care that much. It's like the Dave war, only Lulzier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Coulson Posted December 31, 2013 Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 (edited) Non Grata has a long way to go if it wants to restore its reputation. It needs to start fresh this New Year and wipe the slate clean, and abandon its downward spiral of poor policy making. Sometimes it is best to simply come clean and take the necessary steps to show sincerity adjusting to reality. If you really give a crap about Franz, recruit him into your alliance. I am not sure why everyone is getting their collective panties in a bunch here. It really does not matter what the $%&@ Franz did or did not do. NG expelled him plain and simple. If you truly do not like what NG did and wish to aid Franz in his plight, then recruit his ass into your alliance. NG is a sovereign alliance, capable of doing whatever they want. No one besides those in NG are able to really make a huge impact on internal decisions of NG. So that being said, good luck to Franz in finding a new home and good luck to NG in weathering the peanut gallery. Everyone likes a scandal and this one is quite hilarious. The only hands being wrung over this one are in NpO, TOP and HB. I imagine that NG's collective faces and palms are getting quite sore, however. I know that mine are. If anyone really has a problem with the expulsion, go start the Franz War. ... If you can really make NG care that much. Although Franz would love that, our dance card's a bit full at the moment. They'd have to get in line. We might have an opening in March. Edited December 31, 2013 by Monroe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchboy00 Posted December 31, 2013 Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 Non Grata has a long way to go if it wants to restore its reputation. It needs to start fresh this New Year and wipe the slate clean, and abandon its downward spiral of poor policy making. Sometimes it is best to simply come clean and take the necessary steps to show sincerity adjusting to reality. Yes clearly this is such a poor policy decision. Having been in an alliance that kicked Franz out previously I am sure there were plenty of reasons. As for the others I am pretty sure they are either paying for those with this war, or fixing them by canceling on worthless allies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franz Ferdinand Posted December 31, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 Yes clearly this is such a poor policy decision. Having been in an alliance that kicked Franz out previously I am sure there were plenty of reasons. As for the others I am pretty sure they are either paying for those with this war, or fixing them by canceling on worthless allies. Hey Ditchboy00, which alliance was that, I had honestly forgot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the rebel Posted December 31, 2013 Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 You are the new OWF Target, Franz. Trust me, it has always looked bad, but you will thoroughly enjoy it soon. Keep posting. I have been around for years for a reason. To be fair if he wanted attention like you and mogar, then he would still be prancing around like his Team Rocket days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchboy00 Posted December 31, 2013 Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 Hey Ditchboy00, which alliance was that, I had honestly forgot. Was ages ago. TKTB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franz Ferdinand Posted December 31, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 Was ages ago. TKTB. The Killer Turtle Brigade, I don't believe I was kicked out, I left to join the newly formed The Indigo Plateau. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saladjoe Posted December 31, 2013 Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 If you truly do not like what NG did and wish to aid Franz in his plight, then recruit his ass into your alliance. Poaching, MI6's answer to all the world's problems. :awesome: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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