New Polar Order recognition of war with TIO

[Mogar]

One regret here, Mogar said something like, if you don't peace out we'll pile on you until you do. My fear is that polars entry on TIO just turned this from a fringe conflict to one that will last till the very last day of the war.

I'm not saying that as coalition doctrine, but that IS what happens every single war, you pressure anyone you feel you can into surrendering so you can move to other fronts.

[Varianz]

 

You mean on the battlefield right? Cause man, you guys stink. Thanks for the laughs.

You're in an alliance with more than 2x our NS at the start of this, and have done less than 200k more damage. So...

 

Oh, and something that I've gotten from all this is that you all need to grow a fucking pair, and pick your goddamn sides. I mean ffs. TOP aren't my favorites, but they don't do this wishy-washy bullshit that I'm seeing from so many people in this thread. If half of you had your way I'd be surprised if we had a war once every 4 years.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Varianz

[Steve Buscemi]

We have a ton of respect and mutual friends so diplomacy was tried hard first

You mean that same $#@&# deal that LoSS tried to get NG to accept?  Yea, they are smarter than that.

[the rebel]

One regret here, Mogar said something like, if you don't peace out we'll pile on you until you do. My fear is that polars entry on TIO just turned this from a fringe conflict to one that will last till the very last day of the war.

 

Fringe conflict................Didn't know it was a fear having to remove your thumb from your arse.

Edited December 3, 2013 by the rebel

[Xiphosis]

-snip-

If having no treaty means not having to share information, i think we can agree having no treaty also means we don't just have to drop bloc allies to suit polars new political position.

Thus that meant we were in a tricky position, when the war started we also recognized NSO had it coming so no one in Us was jumping to join them, we did the only thing we could do at that point and that was to not activate any optional clause. NPO decided to support their ally, which was their choice. However when someone made an aggressive move towards NPO with an optional in, there was no staying out. You can't activate non chaining clauses or anything after an optional attack. The mandatory clause forced TIO and NATO to act.

So yes, I stick to my original point, the choice was made for Us. Thats, for me regrettable, but not anything to cry about. Just a fact of life. Seeing the original post i replied to stated Us made it's choice I just pointed out it was made for Us. This could have been avoided, it wasn't c'est la vie.

 

This is the reality of the situation, however, I will also say that certain individuals within Us are certainly happier on the side they're on than they would've been on ours, and are being deliberately unreasonable. Given that it was inevitable people started shifting onto TIO/NATO.

[Farrin Xies]

I suppose Polar wasn't able to do enough damage to us, so they're moving on to Us? [/terrible pun]

[Garion]

 

Hey now, we offered peace and they told us to bring it. *shrug*

 

Distorting one event of the discussions and applying it to the whole situation isn't that smart of a tactic.

 

Or were you told that's about what happened?

Edited December 3, 2013 by Garion

[Dajobo]

You mean that same $#@&# deal that LoSS tried to get NG to accept?  Yea, they are smarter than that.

I have no clue what you are even talking about!


Here is the simple fact. Polaris has no issue with R&R and recognise if R&R desired to enter this war on either side they would have entered it a long time ago. Regardless of what the peanut gallery think or wish Polaris will continue to remain open and welcoming of dialogue with R&R and the conjecture and wishes of the sideline crowd wont influence any part of the outcome.

 

[andyt2k]

Sorry to call people out in public, but there seems to be some confusion about the peace talks went, so I'd like to clear some things up

 

Sparta's first offer didn't even include peacing out NPO - That was rejected

This was moved to include NPO, but US would stay out the war and Sparta could hit whoever they wanted - This was rejected

 

Sparta then lied about these 2 offers saying I misrepresented the offers they had given (I posted logs, not a summary)

 

I then brought up the possibility of "Everyone staying out, unless an ally is hit" something Sparta tell their allies is the offer they gave to us.

 

We agreed to Bloc to Bloc talks and then NpO hit us

 

Please don't continue to spread lies on these forums, it doesn't help anyone

 

[Sir Humphrey]

Yeah, that is true. But, to be fair, Valhalla and GOONS are still fighting NPO without being countered. You never really know what draw you are going to get in a coalition war as each treaty partner tends to focus on one alliance. Sparta's disadvantage was that majority of their allies were already in the war and engaged, making them an easier target for those looking to make a minimalist effort in the war.

This seems a curious case of historical revisionism. Sparta was the first alliance to oA against NPO, at which point the treaties of NATO/TIO were activated, with neither Val nor GOONS engaged at the time. That Sparta was the first oA against our MD ally after 2 of its allies were already engaged is an issue for the Polar coalition's "strategy", rather than our choice of targets. We are fortunate that our friends on Polar's side appear to appreciate our position better than this post appears to.

We were not aware at the time of the extent of the oA chains that were lined up for NPO and other allies of ours honouring MD obligations. Silly us for accepting that NSO was Polar's primary target.
 

I'm not saying that as coalition doctrine, but that IS what happens every single war, you pressure anyone you feel you can into surrendering so you can move to other fronts.

This is a point I have made elsewhere, and is precisely why Sparta's oA put us in a difficult position once we had entered.

[AlmightyGrub]

One regret here, Mogar said something like, if you don't peace out we'll pile on you until you do. My fear is that polars entry on TIO just turned this from a fringe conflict to one that will last till the very last day of the war.

 

The last day of this war just moved further away, receding into distance and almost out of view IMO.  I have no desire to end this war, I do however desire to see an end to the bullshit.  R&R will do whatever it is they want to do, they are welcome to it, but whatever action they take will have a consequence and everyone involved must take responsibility for that consequence.

 

TIO and NATO were offered an out, they chose to continue, and as such they need to take some responsibility for their actions as do the people trying to maneuver the situation to suit their own agenda.  The last major war showed that such machinations are not well received, if you set out to defeat someone and then try to protect all and sundry by being overly clever, you will need to rage quit when it doesn't all go to the plan.  If on the other hand you declare war and play the cards as they are dealt then it is a far simpler outcome for everyone.

 

R&R has a choice, they can do whatever they wish, but they will own whatever it is they choose to do or not do.

[andyt2k]

Please stop lying about our rejection of terms Grub, read my above post where I've told the truth of what happened

 

If you feel you need the moral high ground in this mess off a war, then go ahead

 

But don't lie right at us about it

[AlmightyGrub]

Please stop lying about our rejection of terms Grub, read my above post where I've told the truth of what happened

 

If you feel you need the moral high ground in this mess off a war, then go ahead

 

But don't lie right at us about it

 

I am not lying about anything, you were offered an out, you didn't like it, and that is fine.

 

There is no moral high ground necessary pal, you are allied to who you are allied to, there is no further explanation required.

 

TIO made their choice a long time ago, just as you personally did.  You decided then that you can live with the consequences, so you do and so you will.  To suggest that you did not have choices is the lie.

[the rebel]

Please stop lying about our rejection of terms Grub, read my above post where I've told the truth of what happened

 

If you feel you need the moral high ground in this mess off a war, then go ahead

 

But don't lie right at us about it

 

In your previous post you showed terms were rejected twice.....

[andyt2k]

No we weren't offered an out, I'll repeat my post as you seem to be ignoring it

 

Sparta's first offer didn't even include peacing out NPO - That was rejected

This was moved to include NPO, but US would stay out the war and Sparta could hit whoever they wanted - This was rejected

 

Sparta then lied about these 2 offers saying I misrepresented the offers they had given (I posted logs, not a summary)

 

I then brought up the possibility of "Everyone staying out, unless an ally is hit" something Sparta tell their allies is the offer they gave to us.

 

We agreed to Bloc to Bloc talks and then NpO hit us

 

Please don't continue to spread lies on these forums, it doesn't help anyone

 

The initial talks were between Sparta and myself so I know exactly what was offered, I posted logs so everyone else knows what was talked about and logs were kept of all the future talks. Where things get hazy are when Sparta just start making things up (not by sharing logs but by just saying "we offered this")

 

People can say many things about me, but I don't lie and I don't slander the enemy just because they're the enemy or pretend to like people just because we're on the same side.

 

But I know the progress of the peace talks, I know where things were and how they got there, we were given ridiculous offers that no one would ever accept and eventually we got to scheduling Bloc to Bloc talks and before those happened you attacked us, that is the timeline, that is the truth and I hope we can at least be honest with each other

[andyt2k]

@ Rebel - I posted that 2 insane offers that no decent alliance would ever take, which weren't real offers, but early suggestions by one Spartan king who didn't have agreement of his government, were rejected, something polar are missing out on.

 

 

The actual offers that would actually be discussed like reasonable people, were never rejected by us

Edited December 3, 2013 by andyt2k

[Avakael]

No we weren't offered an out, I'll repeat my post as you seem to be ignoring it
 
Sparta's first offer didn't even include peacing out NPO - That was rejected
This was moved to include NPO, but US would stay out the war and Sparta could hit whoever they wanted - This was rejected
 
Sparta then lied about these 2 offers saying I misrepresented the offers they had given (I posted logs, not a summary)
 
I then brought up the possibility of "Everyone staying out, unless an ally is hit" something Sparta tell their allies is the offer they gave to us.
 
We agreed to Bloc to Bloc talks and then NpO hit us
 
Please don't continue to spread lies on these forums, it doesn't help anyone
 
The initial talks were between Sparta and myself so I know exactly what was offered, I posted logs so everyone else knows what was talked about and logs were kept of all the future talks. Where things get hazy are when Sparta just start making things up (not by sharing logs but by just saying "we offered this")
 
People can say many things about me, but I don't lie and I don't slander the enemy just because they're the enemy or pretend to like people just because we're on the same side.
 
But I know the progress of the peace talks, I know where things were and how they got there, we were given ridiculous offers that no one would ever accept and eventually we got to scheduling Bloc to Bloc talks and before those happened you attacked us, that is the timeline, that is the truth and I hope we can at least be honest with each other

Grub knows. He just thinks those terms were perfectly reasonable. If that opinion is shared by the leadership of the NpO, then we see why we are standing where we are now.

[supercoolyellow]

Some one just post the logs. This world sorely misses log dumps.

[shahman]

 

Is everything going according to your plans comrade?  I trust you are still enjoying our destruction.

 

Big Brother has been so kind as to raise our CM ration from 2 CMs to 8 CMs a day! Hail Big Brother!

[Garion]

Some one just post the logs. This world sorely misses log dumps.

Go away xD
 

I have no clue what you are even talking about!


Here is the simple fact. Polaris has no issue with R&R and recognise if R&R desired to enter this war on either side they would have entered it a long time ago. Regardless of what the peanut gallery think or wish Polaris will continue to remain open and welcoming of dialogue with R&R and the conjecture and wishes of the sideline crowd wont influence any part of the outcome.

Caustic was right all along! Oh wait, someone already said that :P

R&R is always open to civil discussion with polite individuals, as I'm sure you know Dajobo :P

Grub knows. He just thinks those terms were perfectly reasonable. If that opinion is shared by the leadership of the NpO, then we see why we are standing where we are now.

Or both sides are operating without some pieces of the puzzle. Now, if andy would come on IRC... xD Edited December 3, 2013 by Garion

[Enamel32]

@ Rebel - I posted that 2 insane offers that no decent alliance would ever take, which weren't real offers, but early suggestions by one Spartan king who didn't have agreement of his government, were rejected, something polar are missing out on.

 

 

The actual offers that would actually be discussed like reasonable people, were never rejected by us

Listen, I'm sorry that you didn't like the offers put on the table, but you have to reason with the available options.
I'm not sure how you can say these weren't "real" offers, when I think it's quite clear what was on the table, and what the consequences would be as a result. Even this guy isn't surprised:

 

Took you guys long enough, sheesh. You've only been threatening this for two weeks. 

How long do you expect us to sit at the bargaining table? We've been more than courteous to both our allies and our enemies letting you beat on us for over a month!

 

You were stalling because you thought you had some kind of advantage:

 

[14:17] <Da_DreadLord> the main problem with this is that we dont have any problems fighting sparta
[14:17] <Da_DreadLord> its 2 vs 1
[14:17] <Yerushalayim> For the moment.
[14:17] <Da_DreadLord> 3 if you include NPO

 

I'm not sure who you're trying to fool.

[Krzyzewskiville]

Listen, I'm sorry that you didn't like the offers put on the table, but you have to reason with the available options.

Unless they view those offers as entirely unreasonable, and you refuse to listen to their more reasonable offers. Which is exactly what happened. When you put a gun to someone's head and say "take this offer or we kill you" that's not negotiation, that's a threat. Clearly, you don't understand what negotiation is. TIO and NATO tried to negotiate and you threatened them.

[Garion]

Listen, I'm sorry that you didn't like the offers put on the table, but you have to reason with the available options.
I'm not sure how you can say these weren't "real" offers, when I think it's quite clear what was on the table, and what the consequences would be as a result. Even this guy isn't surprised:
 
How long do you expect us to sit at the bargaining table? We've been more than courteous to both our allies and our enemies letting you beat on us for over a month!
 
You were stalling because you thought you had some kind of advantage:
 
I'm not sure who you're trying to fool.

I'm really, REALLY tempted to logdump some parts of those convos myself. Stones, glass houses, etc.

It would probably accomplish nothing, though, apart for souring the involved parties.

[Enamel32]

Unless they view those offers as entirely unreasonable, and you refuse to listen to their more reasonable offers. Which is exactly what happened. When you put a gun to someone's head and say "take this offer or we kill you" that's not negotiation, that's a threat. Clearly, you don't understand what negotiation is. TIO and NATO tried to negotiate and you threatened them.

I'm not involved in the discussions, so I can't comment on counter offers (others should be able to though), but I'm not sure it matters at this point. This is the unfortunate part of war where the losing coalition doesn't have much bargaining power in regards to terms 

 

If NATO/TIO are serious about getting out of the war, I don't see why this isn't motivation to speed up discussions.

 

I'm really, REALLY tempted to logdump some parts of those convos myself. Stones, glass houses, etc.

It would probably accomplish nothing, though, apart for souring the involved parties.

Idc, knock yourself out.

 

Like I said, if you were that close to a reasonable agreement, let's come to something and get it over with. We can cut the OWF drama.

[supercoolyellow]

 

I'm not sure who you're trying to fool.

 

Yeah, that part by DDL is kinda ironic. Maybe now we could agree to a term where NATO, TIO and Sparta leave and agree not to reenter and then R&R doesn't have to come in and can aid US, XX, and the rest of its allies after this war? I really want to minimize the damage XX takes atm, as they are my third favorite bloc in the game and pretty close to US. (the ratings go US, AFM (I'm former MCXA) and then XX)

 

As to the arguments as to what side TIO and NATO took, if I were in charge it would have been a painful but easy decision to make. NSO was the original alliance declared on in this war, however NPO and NG were the main targets of this war. To me this means that TIO and NATO should be expected to defend NPO and take its side. I would prefer to be fighting alongside XX this war, b/c I would have preferred to make this war Eq round 2, but unfortunately that's not the hand we've been dealt.