IRON is the new ODN?

[Taget]

I think it's unnecessarily disparaging, unfair, and disrespectful to ODN to in anyway compare IRON's actions to theirs.

 

ODN has had in past wars many conflicting treaties.  Sometimes they didn't necessarily handle those conflicts well.  I think that goes for just about every alliance in the game.  You can never game plan for every contingency.  And sometimes you have alliances you value and want to have a treaty with that you just need to say, "this time we'll just have to agree to disagree."

 

But no matter what else you can say about ODN you can say this.  If they commit to your side in a war they have committed.  They will fight their designated targets hard for your side, take damage, and work with their partners on a given front.  Not to say there might not be screwups, poor logistics, or whatever else again typically happens in most wars.

 

Can you REALLY say the same thing about IRON?   We wish IRON was just like ODN.  Unfortunately that is not the case.

 

[MCRABT]

You could have been in charge.

 

:rolleyes: .Oh I'm certain my handling of this war would have made things much worse for TOP.

[HM Solomon I]

Experience is largely irrelevant, what validates any view point is its ability to stand up to rebuttal, what disappoints me the most is the failure of the standing council to explain how its recent decisions are in the best interest of IRON. In failing to offer this rational they have simply failed to contest the validity of my view point at all. Manifested, this type of negligence results in extremely poor decisions and that is why we have this thread.

You are correct, experience is not what makes an argument valid or sound, but it does typically make you more likely to actually present a valid or sound argument. Experience is cumulative knowledge, having more of it means you have more on which to base an argument, and thus a higher likelihood of presenting a better one.

Edit: grammar Edited November 15, 2013 by HM Solomon I

[Garion]

[20:07] BaronAaron[IRON] we set up a brawl between NG and TOP

 

yep, nothing to see here folks

 

 

You don't buy it when IRON themselves are saying they have been a part of the coalition TOP and Polar built to roll NG and NG's allies for months? That's odd.

 

I talked extensively with IRON since the end of EQ: NG popped out as topic of course, given the transparent dislike they showed towards beerosphere - TIO - R&R (blame Caustic and his advanced diplomacy), and the whole "Let's do a community service and roll NpO again" thing.

 

IRON reassured us (and Us later on) that they had no intention to roll with NG in that plan, but never expressed the intent to get rid of that tie (which obviously puzzled me): that they would willingly put themselves in this bog for the intent of getting NG rolled is too much of a stretch for me.

 

Did IRON make a mistake? Probably. Did they have the intention to have NG rolled? I don't think so. Pretty much as I don't think that Fark or NpO willingly put my bloc on the other side to get us rolled. Similar things happen, as we all know. 

 

Additionally, I find it rather funny that IRON only is singled out: where are the complaints about Valhalla?

[MCRABT]

Additionally, I find it rather funny that IRON only is singled out: where are the complaints about Valhalla?

 

TOP/MI6 drumming the roll IRON tune early because they think this is a good opportunity, much harder to do that to Valh given they are already fully committed to the coalition. Besides if they get IRON they get Valhalla to so it's entirely unnecessary. 

Edited November 15, 2013 by MCRABT

[Centurius]

:rolleyes: .Oh I'm certain my handling of this war would have made things much worse for TOP.

Not without Mia holding your hand.

[Steve Buscemi]

I talked extensively with IRON since the end of EQ: NG popped out as topic of course, given the transparent dislike they showed towards beerosphere - TIO - R&R (blame Caustic and his advanced diplomacy), and the whole "Let's do a community service and roll NpO again" thing.

 

IRON reassured us (and Us later on) that they had no intention to roll with NG in that plan, but never expressed the intent to get rid of that tie (which obviously puzzled me): that they would willingly put themselves in this bog for the intent of getting NG rolled is too much of a stretch for me.

 

Did IRON make a mistake? Probably. Did they have the intention to have NG rolled? I don't think so. Pretty much as I don't think that Fark or NpO willingly put my bloc on the other side to get us rolled. Similar things happen, as we all know. 

 

Additionally, I find it rather funny that IRON only is singled out: where are the complaints about Valhalla?

You make some very good points here, in fact all of it.

 

Valhalla is in the exact same boat as IRON, no matter what your opinion of this is.  To IRON's credit they at least told us straight to our face and have displayed a high level of communication with us through all of this.  Something that I really respect.

 

edit:  Baron is actually a really nice guy and I think those were just a poor choice of words.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Steve Buscemi

[supercoolyellow]

Not without Mia holding your hand.

 

Well then, Mia and MCrib would make things much worse for TOP, while holding hands.

[MCRABT]

Not without Mia holding your hand.

 

Naturally, Mia was telling me you guys were snakes long before I gave up on you. All that credit you've been giving me for the breakdown of our relationship is truly unwarranted and I know she is a little bitter about that.

[Max Power]

We saw what Caustic was doing. We dont agree with what they were doing. However we hold a MDoAP with an alliance on the losing side. That still means something to maybe 3-4 alliances out there. 

We feel you, bro. :)

 

Reminds me of Sparta during the months leading up to Karma. We have ties on both sides, we didn't support the whole run up to war and actually don't like much of what NSO does these days, but here we are. Your MD treaty partner takes a bullet, you're there to take the next one. 

You also seem to get what a MDoAP is. Fancy that.

 

First off, NG made their bed. I'm not even sure if NG will deny that. That said, If you have a treaty, honor it. If you don't like what your treaty partner is doing, and you don't want to be put on the line to stick up for them, you cancel the treaty. IRON kept the treaty despite knowing full well what was going to happen. If you keep the treaty, you had better put a stop to the coalition forces about to roll YOUR OWN ALLY. IRON didn't do that, instead they joined the coalition and actively participated in planning that would inevitably roll THEIR OWN ALLY.  It is absolute and complete betrayal...severe incompetence and lack of leadership  and common sense at best.  Saying you "support the other side" and "we told you so" is NOT EVER a valid reason to dishonor a treaty. Anyone defending IRON's actions have absolutely zero legs to stand on. It is completely indefensible. CCC had to defend Polaris for their screw up in Bipolar. We didn't like it, but we had a treaty so we did it, and our bond is stronger than ever, btw,

 

Furthermore, there are intel sharing obligations in treaties. So, IRON's mere presence in the coalition is a huge conflict in and of itself. IRON must have violated that portion of the treaty with NG as well. If they did honor that portion, then they violated the trust placed in them with the coalition, which is also awful. IRON should not have joined the coalition in the first place. If they hadn't this war would probably not be happening right now, because no one would know that IRON wasn't supportive of NG and lots of people are afraid of IRON.

 

Sorry If I anger anyone with this post, but this is how I feel.

And you! The bottom line is this: when your ally asks you to help, you help.

 

This is suppossed to be one of Polar/TOP's (our) coalition leaders.

 

I'd be so happy if we did a bipolar and hit your alliance instead.

Hitting MI6 wouldn't be pulling a Bi-Polar. It would be honouring your MDoAP with Non Grata, which they specifically asked you to do.

 

To be fair to all the people claiming a treaty needs to be posted on the forums/wiki. FAN didn't do it for a pretty long time and it was almost always accepted.

FAN had a stated policy of that, though.

[Commander shepard]

You also seem to get what a MDoAP is. Fancy that.
 
And you! The bottom line is this: when your ally asks you to help, you help.

It should be noted that IRON doesn't sign MDoAP's.

[IYIyTh]

I talked extensively with IRON since the end of EQ: NG popped out as topic of course, given the transparent dislike they showed towards beerosphere - TIO - R&R (blame Caustic and his advanced diplomacy), and the whole "Let's do a community service and roll NpO again" thing.

 

IRON reassured us (and Us later on) that they had no intention to roll with NG in that plan, but never expressed the intent to get rid of that tie (which obviously puzzled me): that they would willingly put themselves in this bog for the intent of getting NG rolled is too much of a stretch for me.

 

Did IRON make a mistake? Probably. Did they have the intention to have NG rolled? I don't think so. Pretty much as I don't think that Fark or NpO willingly put my bloc on the other side to get us rolled. Similar things happen, as we all know. 

 

Additionally, I find it rather funny that IRON only is singled out: where are the complaints about Valhalla?

 

This isn't a giant thread about how supposively one of Valhalla's strongest allied government members leaked logs of them trying to do them a favor and their ally shitting all over them at any and every opportunity.

 

I'd imagine if that'd happen Valhalla would be discussed a bit more.

 

To be less coy -- Let's not pretend they aren't being said. Some people have a different way of communicating disagreement with their allies is all.

[Chimaera]

Things Max Power just taught me: MI6 is at war with Non Grata.  Neat.

 

Let me be frank - MI6 has been liberal with our criticism of people during this war, and it is most assuredly not restricted to IRON.  So thank you for assuming malicious intent, Crab, but MI6's only goal is to win this war.  Everything else is secondary.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Chimaera

[Samus]

That should really make him count more, since he wasn't involved in this, he can be more objective about it; that, combined with his extensive experience, means his opinion should carry even more weight than most others.

I wasn't arguing the validity of his opinions.

[Max Power]

Things Max Power just taught me: MI6 is at war with Non Grata.  Neat.

Everyone else is. I assumed you were too. :P My bad.

[IYIyTh]

Things Max Power just taught me: MI6 is at war with Non Grata.  Neat.

 

 

Why not we both have enough slots to spare right?

 

Steve let's make it happen

[Ardus]

TOP/MI6 drumming the roll IRON tune early because they think this is a good opportunity, much harder to do that to Valh given they are already fully committed to the coalition. Besides if they get IRON they get Valhalla to so it's entirely unnecessary.

We don't even have a drum to beat a tune on. We have been supportive of IRON in this thread. Who people do and do not cast aspersions on is a matter well beyond my control.

[hartfw]

We don't even have a drum to beat a tune on. We have been supportive of IRON in this thread. Who people do and do not cast aspersions on is a matter well beyond my control.

 

Not yet at least.  Muhahahahahahahahahaha.

 

(This whole thread really needs more evil laughter.  Step it up people.)

[HM Solomon I]

Not yet at least.  Muhahahahahahahahahaha.
 
(This whole thread really needs more evil laughter.  Step it up people.)

Muahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ... Muahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ... Muahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ... Muahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ... And break.

I believe that covers it :P

[MCRABT]

Things Max Power just taught me: MI6 is at war with Non Grata.  Neat.

 

Let me be frank - MI6 has been liberal with our criticism of people during this war, and it is most assuredly not restricted to IRON.  So thank you for assuming malicious intent, Crab, but MI6's only goal is to win this war.  Everything else is secondary.

I'm certain it is secondary to winning this war Chim but secondary objectives logically move up the ladder when other more pressing concerns are out of the way.

Edited November 15, 2013 by MCRABT

[kerschbs]

Yes they can. This is Planet Bob, damnit.

 

You are on fire today gibs. 

[Grayshadow]

:rolleyes: .Oh I'm certain my handling of this war would have made things much worse for TOP.

 

You had that opportunity. You chose to not take it. Backseat driving IRON or in this case trying to drive IRON from a car on the other side of the road going the other way is not the way to go. You were the IRON president that all but disappeared during the EQ war, when IRON was on the other side from TOP and then left IRON right after peace was declared. A peace, I might add, that was a surprise to the IRON membership. You had your chance to lead IRON against TOP and company and blew it.  I am not a member of IRON gov. Just a long term member and this the way I view your comments. 

[Varianz]

IRON did not launch this war. Our allies in Polaris launched this war, alongside Paradoxia and Farkistan. Whatever IRON's intentions, they do not define the grounds for this conflict.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that I still find you lot charmingly malevolent.

We're a charming group. Ask LoSS.

[MCRABT]

You had that opportunity. You chose to not take it. Backseat driving IRON or in this case trying to drive IRON from a car on the other side of the road going the other way is not the way to go. You were the IRON president that all but disappeared during the EQ war, when IRON was on the other side from TOP and then left IRON right after peace was declared. A peace, I might add, that was a surprise to the IRON membership. You had your chance to lead IRON against TOP and company and blew it.  I am not a member of IRON gov. Just a long term member and this the way I view your comments. 

 

Your entitled to that opinion buddy, I had more pressing other world concerns at the time, these things happen, in any case it wasn't IRON's contribution to that war that caused it to fizzle out (we did alot more than others around us) although my lack of presence during the peace talks was a disruption for everyone involved. But hey at least I took the shot and I was able to rationalize doing so. I would also point out I was one council member in a council of equals, that I took on more responsibility reflected my desire to achieve the best I could for IRON. I did my best and damn sight more than most ever will do. I think your post is fairly unflattering about the 3 years of work I did to rebuild IRON from the war ravage wreck I inherited it in after Bi-Polar but hey we will let history be the judge.

 

In any case this isn't about me, if your comfortable with your councils decision then that is your prerogative.

[Cairna]

The fact that MCRABT is here posting against IRON's behavior should be enough proof of how badly you've shit the bed.

 

I don't imagine this thread will do much good, since the general membership probably doesn't actually care, but it is a shame to see such grievious violations of a treaty being supported by so many. Even Unknown Smurf can see the problem ffs.