Using sanctions as tools of war?

[enderland]

Oh how good to see repentance from sinful ways.

 

This must mean you're apologetic about sending messages to our trade circle telling them to cancel on me back when BLEU got hit by TOP/Grämlins and others and I was in a BLEU trade circle with you.

 

Always good to see someone come back from the abyss.

[Anarquista]

 

Who have you been talking to?

 

 

 

As mentioned earlier int his thread your allies used it against us originally. UCR openly supported it in the last war, and as Die Linke is "basically the same alliance" (according to your government), then it follows that you also supported the sanctioning. 

 

I'm sorry that you can only support it only when it is your side using it but that is not the issue. The issue is that you only care enough to oppose it when it is used against you. I wish that there was some sort of consistency so for when there is an alliance getting curb-stomped and then sanctions are used we have something to hold their actions against.

 

That said we did not approve this sanction action on a government level. In-fact BONES has not contacted us about it. We will not hold him accountable though just like you did not hold your allies accountable for when they used it against us in the last war. 

 

well, to be honest, i didn't know if these tactics were used against you last war, we were focused on our own front,

and you are approving it on a government level if you allow that nation into your alliance after knowing the fact of the sanctions

[Freelancer]

Hasn't this been done many a time in the past, or is there something new here?

 

Yes many many time's ..Though the real question is who preformed this act creatively. 

Two standout in my mind .

Marooners will remember this one .. Nov 2006 GWII  RIA's Senator ( If I recall it was rubin ) Hits MDC's Tulak Horde with " Cutting off your booze supply" We marooner's loled for a week at that one, especially if you knew Tulak.. haha

Now we go to VOX where they complety hijack the red team and nailed NPO's top government during KARMA, the threads on the OWF were just awesome.

Weapons of war are only limited to ones creativity and ruthlessness.



 

Edited November 10, 2013 by Freelancer

[Starcraftmazter]

I'm really disappointed, I thought Umbrella had more class than this. I also don't see why an alliance with the highest average NS of the majors needs to use sanctions for war.

[Garion]

Probably due to most alliances at war with each other are based on different colours and/or don't have senate control/support. Also you can only have 30 active sanctions on each colour so wouldn't be a really effective use in a global war in the long run.
 
Boils down to being a dick move.
 
Edit: though I can see it possibly being employed in future situations where alliances take the FAN route to drive them out of peacemode.

It is considered a dick move because it never became a common practice, in my opinion. I wouldn't support the use of sanctions on my alliance's behalf, but I definitely see it's usefulness under certain circumstances and against certain targets.

I see certain spheres as hardly affected by sanction warfare (Orange, Aqua, Blue, Green, Brown) but others could definitely experience it (Black and Maroon come to mind, but White and Pink as well).

[Delta1212]

 
Yes many many time's ..Though the real question is who preformed this act creatively. 

Two standout in my mind .

Marooners will remember this one .. Nov 2006 GWII  RIA's Senator ( If I recall it was rubin ) Hits MDC's Tulak Horde with " Cutting off your booze supply" We marooner's loled for a week at that one, especially if you knew Tulak.. haha

Now we go to VOX where they complety hijack the red team and nailed NPO's top government during KARMA, the threads on the OWF were just awesome.

Weapons of war are only limited to ones creativity and ruthlessness.



 

It was cheeseaholic. Ruben was the leader of ODS.

Also it was GWIII. Edited November 10, 2013 by Delta1212

[Walshington]

It is considered a dick move because it never became a common practice, in my opinion. I wouldn't support the use of sanctions on my alliance's behalf, but I definitely see it's usefulness under certain circumstances and against certain targets.

I see certain spheres as hardly affected by sanction warfare (Orange, Aqua, Blue, Green, Brown) but others could definitely experience it (Black and Maroon come to mind, but White and Pink as well).

 

I get Rayvon's POV that hey, it's a tool, it's out there, use it.

 

At the same time, I do see the dick move side -- nations have various tools that are available but frowned upon: poison gas, chem-bio, etc.  Avoided solely becuse they are percieved as a dick tool.

 

Personally, I don't like it.  But I also wish nukes were restricted to only the top 5% -- I think wars would be much more interesting.

[Sabcat]

 

Who have you been talking to?

 

 

 

As mentioned earlier int his thread your allies used it against us originally. UCR openly supported it in the last war, and as Die Linke is "basically the same alliance" (according to your government), then it follows that you also supported the sanctioning. 

 

I'm sorry that you can only support it only when it is your side using it but that is not the issue. The issue is that you only care enough to oppose it when it is used against you. I wish that there was some sort of consistency so for when there is an alliance getting curb-stomped and then sanctions are used we have something to hold their actions against.

 

That said we did not approve this sanction action on a government level. In-fact BONES has not contacted us about it. We will not hold him accountable though just like you did not hold your allies accountable for when they used it against us in the last war. 

If you read my post again or in fact at all you'll notice that I specifically didn't condemn the use. It's useful and possibly even justifiable but it definitely falls into the escalation category of actions. Something you could use if you're winning a war to end it more quickly or perhaps use it to tip the balance in your favour in a war that is otherwise evenly balanced. It's use when you're losing is only going to achieve getting you kicked harder and longer than would otherwise have been the case.

[Rayvon]

It also gives the information obtained in spy reports some use and purpose as well.

If I'm not looking to sanction someone or slow down their efforts to be of danger to me and mine, why do I care who their trade partners are otherwise? What purpose does this information in a spy report serve.

Can only sanction five people at a time (or at least that's what we ran into when applying the Kaskus sanctions), so the dick move of sanctioning an entire alliance is off the table, so you pick out 5 people from 5 different trade rings at the time they're actively fighting - and you've created a hole in defenses. Makes the trades system change to be able to switch resources that much more important too.

[Sabcat]

5 nations in TC's with uranium could be a useful way of deploying sanctions.

[TurnipCruncher]

Until they swap resources.

[Freelancer]

It was cheeseaholic. Ruben was the leader of ODS.

Also it was GWIII.

TY for correction, I did that by memory which is steadily failing these day, but I remember it being the lol of the entire team.

[Rayvon]

Until they swap resources.

Which by that time the sanctioning alliance has most likely achieved what they set out to do. Mission successful. And makes the sanctioning not permanently detrimental, just like any other war damage.

[Letterkenny]

I really don't understand how people can be whining about someone using an in game mechanic to gain an advantage while at war. It's a dick move... and? That's the argument? It creates more work for the enemy and that's a bad thing? We're at WAR, fucking act like it.

[Schattenmann]

So some guy who's been bouncing out and back between a real alliance and an on-again-off-again alliance gets elected to Senate then decides on his own to just go buck wild, and nobody knows what happened.

 

Color me shocked. :rolleyes:

 

 

 

Senate sanctions should not be used in regular alliance wars.  They are purely a matter of numbers, so where a small AA might be able to manoeuvre political support or leverage skill in warfare to really damage a large enemy, it is virtually impossible for them to do anything about the senate.

[Northern Empire]

This is old hat at this point, 

Doomhouse tried this very thing when they invaded Maroon, 

[zoskia]

So some guy who's been bouncing out and back between a real alliance and an on-again-off-again alliance gets elected to Senate then decides on his own to just go buck wild, and nobody knows what happened.

 

Color me shocked. :rolleyes:

 

 

 

Senate sanctions should not be used in regular alliance wars.  They are purely a matter of numbers, so where a small AA might be able to manoeuvre political support or leverage skill in warfare to really damage a large enemy, it is virtually impossible for them to do anything about the senate.

 

I agree with you.

 

... And the sanctions belong to an era in which CN was like an improved version of that horrible game that gave birth to the NPO.

... And probably Admin had the intention that the Teams (Colors) were going to be a big deal in the roleplaying part of this game... And for a while they were (i.e, when NPO didn't even allow other Read Team Alliances... when the NpO managed to unite all the big Blue Alliances in BLEU... etc).
But finally the Alliances and the Blocks became by far more important than the "Teams" (colors).

 

So, yeah, it's an in-game feature... but you are not really "hurting" the enemy, but mostly making him spend some more RL time doing something truly boring, which is moving to a different color and finding trade partners there. So it's not immoral to do it... but it's kinda pathetic... since all you are doing is forcing someone to do something really boring and dull.

 

I hope that sanctions don't get fashionable, since they don't improve the war... but they manage to make it quite boring for those who get a sanction.

[Rayvon]

I agree with you.
 
... And the sanctions belong to an era in which CN was like an improved version of that horrible game that gave birth to the NPO.
... And probably Admin had the intention that the Teams (Colors) were going to be a big deal in the roleplaying part of this game... And for a while they were (i.e, when NPO didn't even allow other Read Team Alliances... when the NpO managed to unite all the big Blue Alliances in BLEU... etc).
But finally the Alliances and the Blocks became by far more important than the "Teams" (colors).
 
So, yeah, it's an in-game feature... but you are not really "hurting" the enemy, but mostly making him spend some more RL time doing something truly boring, which is moving to a different color and finding trade partners there. So it's not immoral to do it... but it's kinda pathetic... since all you are doing is forcing someone to do something really boring and dull.
 
I hope that sanctions don't get fashionable, since they don't improve the war... but they manage to make it quite boring for those who get a sanction.

And so the argument (d)evolves to "it's boring to restructure trades and so it's bad"? And "Admin didn't make team colours more important so this feature shouldn't be used" ? Poor arguments for it. The same were made about the damage of nukes by the stat collectors.

It's another avenue to keep things active, to keep peoples attention active, and to create more drama in this world (bitch and moan about drama all you want, if you're not in a neutral alliance than you're wanting it to be able to war someone).

[Big Z]

Don't worry, I have returned!

 

Hi there! How was that vacation Mr. Cupcake?

[zoskia]

And so the argument (d)evolves to "it's boring to restructure trades and so it's bad"? And "Admin didn't make team colours more important so this feature shouldn't be used" ? Poor arguments for it. The same were made about the damage of nukes by the stat collectors.

It's another avenue to keep things active, to keep peoples attention active, and to create more drama in this world (bitch and moan about drama all you want, if you're not in a neutral alliance than you're wanting it to be able to war someone).

 

Considering that I'm a member of an Alliance that has had a seat in the Senate since... always.

And that we actually have good relations with all the main Alliances in our "team" (color)... then this feature is extremely unlikely to be used against me (or any member of my Alliance, actually).

 

I'm not speaking against it because I may be directly "damaged" by its use (as I've said, it's safe to say that my chances of getting sanctioned in this war are close to 0%... and the politics of CN would have to change a LOT in very bizarre ways to see myself sanctioned -i.e, it's very unlikely to happen).

 

So... I am speaking for those who may be sanctioned, those who have a real chance of getting sanctioned if it gets fashionable to do it:

It's a pain in the #¢∞.... it's boring, it steals a lot of RL time... and it does not make the game more interesting (but probably more time-consuming in a way that is not enjoyable). That's why I am against it.

 

P.S, When is that Global Warming coming? please let me know.

[Rayvon]

Considering that I'm a member of an Alliance that has had a seat in the Senate since... always.
And that we actually have good relations with all the main Alliances in our "team" (color)... then this feature is extremely unlikely to be used against me (or any member of my Alliance, actually).
 
I'm not speaking against it because I may be directly "damaged" by its use (as I've said, it's safe to say that my chances of getting sanctioned in this war are close to 0%... and the politics of CN would have to change a LOT in very bizarre ways to see myself sanctioned -i.e, it's very unlikely to happen).
 
So... I am speaking for those who may be sanctioned, those who have a real chance of getting sanctioned if it gets fashionable to do it:
It's a pain in the #¢∞.... it's boring, it steals a lot of RL time... and it does not make the game more interesting (but probably more time-consuming in a way that is not enjoyable). That's why I am against it.
 
P.S, When is that Global Warming coming? please let me know.

I didn't say anything about YOU or about POLAR or about ANY DIRECT ALLIANCE in any of my response. I said "it's boring restructuring trades" is a poor argument towards a lack of use of the feature. Congrats on holding a senate seat .. forever.

PS. what the fuck does my signature and your comment about it have to do with sanctioning?

[potato]

This is old hat at this point, 

Doomhouse tried this very thing when they invaded Maroon, 

 

That's not what happened.

[Delta1212]

 
Hi there! How was that vacation Mr. Cupcake?

Capital, Z!

[zoskia]

I didn't say anything about YOU or about POLAR or about ANY DIRECT ALLIANCE in any of my response. I said "it's boring restructuring trades" is a poor argument towards a lack of use of the feature. Congrats on holding a senate seat .. forever.

PS. what the fuck does my signature and your comment about it have to do with sanctioning?

 

Thaks for the congratulations for having a senate since since forever.
I talked about it as a Polar because I have a situation of priviledge when it comes to the use of this feature (i,e, that my chances of getting sanctioned are extremely low, if not completely non-existent).

 

... And yet I still don't like to see this feature getting (ab)used... and I don't see that the CN community will get a benefit from it.... nor I see that the wars will get more interesting.

 

It would be interesting to see new game-features in the future that let the Senate do some interesting things instead of sanctioning (in my opinion, the Senate is a very under-developed area of this game... it would be really interesting to see the Senate doing what a Senate does: voting for laws... and we it would be cool to see Political campaigns from the Senators).

 

LOL... your sig has nothing to do with sanctioning... it was just a friendly post-scriptum. I simply saw the sig and it made me laugh. That's all.

[Mogar]

This is old hat at this point, 

Doomhouse tried this very thing when they invaded Maroon, 

still quite happy I am so special I got sanctioned!