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Arizona Announcement


Yuurie
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Just to clarify, as many people know that I keep rather formal records. The conversation posted by fake Yuurie is real. I had to check myself but I did find the same logs with myself telling real Yuurei not to point another alliance out in their charter. I normally won't get involved in log dumps but my name got thrown in and it peaked my interest

 

My posting is a bit cleaner:

 

[spoiler]
[02:25:39] <@DavidEdwards[TTE]> wow, thats crazy, and youre 63,884.071 ns now/
[02:27:42] <&Michaelboy88[TTE]> He dropped to my level because of the war. I used to always be a few 10k behind him.
[02:28:24] <@DavidEdwards[TTE]> I see, well that nuclear attack really did a lot of damage.
[02:29:09] <&Michaelboy88[TTE]> Yeah it did. Set him back around 2 years of growth and me a few months of growth. Only because I wasn't the main target.
[02:31:06] <~Yuurei> I was in the top 9% of CN nations before that crap...
[02:32:03] <&Michaelboy88[TTE]> It's ok Yuurei. It was dull on insane. :P
[02:36:24] <@Maonyan> Thats retarded...did NpO offer reps?
[02:36:59] <&Michaelboy88[TTE]> It was officially classified as a Rogue so no reps.
[02:37:03] <@DavidEdwards[TTE]> wow
[02:38:03] <~Yuurei> NpO negotiated on their behalf, both before and at the end... how is that a rogue action???
[02:39:00] <&Michaelboy88[TTE]> Because that is how it turned out. Not agreeing or disagreeing but that is what happened. 
[02:39:38] <~Yuurei> NpO is our eternal enemy... I should put them in the charter next time
[02:40:46] <&Michaelboy88[TTE]> Cmon we don't need to be publicly confrontational with them. At least not in an official document.
[02:44:25] <~Yuurei> no fallout from having MCXA in it before
[02:44:39] <@Maonyan> MCXA?
[02:44:51] <~Yuurei> my former personal nemesis
02[02:44:52] * eXcessium[SNAFU] (eXcessium@coldfront-9C38ACF5.ue.woosh.co.nz) Quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
[02:45:07] <~Yuurei> read the old Charter
[02:45:25] <&Michaelboy88[TTE]> But that is the past.
[02:45:30] <Lurunin[PPO]> dude...i'm sorry...but that is low dissing an entire alliance in your charter
[02:45:40] <~Yuurei> Appendix 2 - The Terran Empire shall be forbidden to establish any treaties with the Multicolored Cross-X Alliance (MCXA).
[02:45:44] <&Michaelboy88[TTE]> I am aware of the MCXA clause in the previous charter.
[02:46:05] <~Yuurei> I was informing Maonyan
[02:46:18] <@Maonyan> MCXA was pretty prominent before Karma...no?
[02:46:24] <~Yuurei> yes
[02:46:39] <~Yuurei> when I started, they were the 2nd largest in CN
[02:46:42] <&Michaelboy88[TTE]> It's still pretty big. Just not as big.
[02:47:03] <@Maonyan> ye...
[02:47:06] <@Maonyan> still rmb those days
[02:47:16] <@Maonyan> NPO,NpO,IRON,MCXA,Val,
[02:47:23] <~Yuurei> Lurunin, if MCXA did to you what they did to me, then you'd understand
[02:47:42] <Lurunin[PPO]> #1 wat did they do?
[02:47:44] <@Maonyan> another nuke rogue?
[02:47:57] <~Yuurei> no... much different
[02:47:59] <Lurunin[PPO]> #2 personal grudges are one thing....but that crosses the line man
[02:48:35] <~Yuurei> how so?  I didn't post that they were asshats, I said we wouldn't treaty them
[02:49:05] <Lurunin[PPO]> even if they placed an EZI on me i'd never do something like amend our charter to specifically target an alliance 
[02:49:31] <~Yuurei> more complicated than an EZI
01[02:49:58] <+Devo[NATO]> Not by place to go there, but that sort of article would likely draw bad opinion of the holding alliance
[02:50:02] <&Michaelboy88[TTE]> One thing to understand was the intent of the alliance during the time that was written. It was just a form of dealing with the feelings ofthe past.
01[02:50:10] <+Devo[NATO]> anyway o/ Yuurei o/ going to bed
[02:50:22] <~Yuurei> Other alliances have the same feelings about specific alliances... I just came out and said it is all
[02:51:23] <~Yuurei> It hasn't been in the Charter in a LONG time... we get along fairly well with MCXA these days
[02:51:53] <~Yuurei> I think that line actually helped facilitate some of the thawing of relations
[02:53:10] <~Yuurei> Besides, I've never been one to refrain from saying what I think... you always know where you stand with me.
[02:55:38] <&Michaelboy88[TTE]> Just to say, no one complained at all on OWF for our DoE. And it is all in the past now. 
[02:56:21] <@Maonyan> Hmm....you are one that believed in what you think...
[02:57:13] <@Maonyan> hey i gtg now
[02:57:15] <@Maonyan> bye

 

[/spoiler]
 
Posted logs are from Dec 4. 2011
 
Below is a very brief list of other people idling in the room at the time (based on join/quits from my logs) that did not partake in the conversation but might also have access to the logs if they were in fact logging irc convo's
 
Nactigal|TDO
KahlanRahl
jd (jd@coldfront-12BDCE4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
Cheyenne (new.fronti@coldfront-1DD94EFD.ed.shawcable.net) has joined #terran
[TIO]RatchetH22
 
 
The other guys should be fairly obvious
 
Good luck with the investigation on the fake Yuurie. Anyone who wishes for help in the investigation, you know where to find me.
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Posted logs are from Dec 4. 2011

 

This topic would be like a kid making a topic about a Christmas gift he didn't receive 2 years ago and is still upset.  Better yet its like breaking up with a girl friend and her wanting her CD's back after 2 years. I mean come on I earned those CD's.  Having to deal with her shit.

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From my understanding of it, the point of AZ is not to chain the whole bloc into wars being fought on behalf of external ties. What an amazing concept! They should be more like the honorable CnG, and fight for one external ally while attacking another, right?

 

The point is that since there aren't enough alliances with the courage and conviction to create a bloc that is truly independent of the web, some people are doing the best they can to form some partnerships while refusing to let that make them a pawn in web politics. The fact that people still can't wrap their heads around that and automatically assume cowardice is pretty sad. Not everyone wants to fight your wars for you.

 

Those alliances owe you no apology or shame if you wreck yourselves fighting each other, while they continue to grow and prosper. If you think their increasing relative strength is a threat, then, well, add them to the hit list.

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Uh, Look up ODP treaty buddy.  It guarantees no defense from anyone hence an ODP.  That being said, The Terran Empire does alot of taking out raiders for the alliances both in and out of Arizona.

Look up "people who sign ODPs without the intention of upgrading are generally cowards looking for an out while appearing menacing"
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Look up "people who sign ODPs without the intention of upgrading are generally cowards looking for an out while appearing menacing"

 

Isn't the point of an ODP to build communication and relations before upgrading/downgrading?  

 

What happens if you and the other party are generally not in alignment with one another but did not realize it until later? 

 

So, every alliance forms an ODP with the sole intention to upgrade?

 

What about the giant alliance forming an ODP with a younger alliance?

 

I am pretty sure all alliance do not form an ODP or a piat for that matter for the sole intention of upgrading.

 

I do not understand your logic friendo.

Edited by TwitchHard
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Isn't the point of an ODP to build communication and relations before upgrading/downgrading?  
 
What happens if you and the other party are generally not in alignment with one another but did not realize it until later? 
 
So, every alliance forms an ODP with the sole intention to upgrade?
 
What about the giant alliance forming an ODP with a younger alliance?
 
I am pretty sure all alliance do not form an ODP or a piat for that matter for the sole intention of upgrading.
 
I do not understand your logic friendo.

So, why would you make an ODP bloc?
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Why did Invicta join in the first place? Arizona never seemed the place where I'd find them, since they've been more than happy to fight for their allies in the past.

 

 

to be fair, TTE is the only AZ alliance that doesn't go to war. NEAT/UCR/Invicta/CCC/GPF/TSA/UCoN have all participated in wars and bled for their allies.

 

as for the ODP debate. There are different ways to view them. You have the OBR way which is kinda like the GATO-INT MDoAP interpretation of never honoring the treaty and watching your friends/allies burn if they aren't attacked the certain way you would want to see them attacked i guess.

 

or the usual standard version which while the treaty is optional, support is usually still pledged so that your allies aren't left to the slaughter/grinder of others.

 

which one is the right way depends on your play style versus others. just don't complain when others don't see it the same way when you're called on it.

 

 

edit: wow, i can't believe I forgot TSA and UCoN...

Edited by Lurunin
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I'm not gonna argue for creating ODP blocs, but that's just not the way I like to play.

I can see the value in an ODP bloc to an extent. It allows alliances to remain semi-neutral without going full-out GPA or WTF, but also grow foreign relations should they choose to become more active or aggressive. I'm not a fan of it, but I can sort of understand the logic.

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I'm not gonna argue for creating ODP blocs, but that's just not the way I like to play.

I can see the value in an ODP bloc to an extent. It allows alliances to remain semi-neutral without going full-out GPA or WTF, but also grow foreign relations should they choose to become more active or aggressive. I'm not a fan of it, but I can sort of understand the logic.

 

I think the confusion comes form the fact that nearly every global war is the result of one of the same 5 or so alliances getting attacked, and everyone else chaining in to a side. Almost no one outside of those alliances is ever attacked directly unless doing so would result in a desirable treaty chain reaction.

 

So when people sign treaties, it is almost implied that you're really just creating treaty web links, and not necessarily expecting to defend each other from a direct attack outside of a chaining situation. That's a reasonable assumption.

 

Some alliances are a bit old school though, and really just want a few allies to help ward off a direct attack/mass raid (and vice versa) - not as a part of some scheme to manipulate the web. In a case like that, what your buddy decides to run off and do for a 3rd party ally might be left up to them.

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I am sorry dear Yuurei, but I still have good standing here and if I were to join your glorious alliance I'm afraid that good standing would no longer exist

 

OYcvhxz.png

Edited by Yuurie
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Can someone TLDR; the logs and what is going on here.

 

I can help you fine gentleman. It seems Yuurei lost two members of Arizona and gained another, and he was so embarrassed by both of these events, that he did not want the world to know! I, the one and only Yuurie, have arrived to help spread the knowledge to the rest of the world

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The problem with not fighting wars is... not fighting wars. When you build a reputation of being war-dodgers, cowards or even only to be poor at warring, it is very hard to dispel it. I can understand (if not agree with) TTE's stance about warfare, but... When war will hit you guys you will have an hell of an hard time putting up a good show, of that I'm convinced: people not used to fighting wars usually perform very poorly.

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