IRON Announcement

[Third King]

Couple that with the utter hilarity that IRON gov tried to sell to all of C&G in the months prior to the war. "We have no desire or wish to hit DH"... over and over and over and over.. to anyone who would drink the juice(fortunately, nobody in TLR bought that line of nonsense, we much preferred NPO's honest of saying "you realize DH is next?" IRON had no desire to war DH, but they wanted the war to last longer. They had no desire to see C&G harmed, but they wanted the war to last longer. It is an inconvenient truth that they try to cover their duplicity up with. 

 

CnG's harm or success was never a topic of discussion. Again, IRON did not declare war on any signatory of CnG and neither did any IRON ally iirc. Why are you trying so hard to vilify IRON?

 

This entire notion is 100% absurd. The hit on DH began its planning stages nearly the moment (maybe even a few days prior to)... the Dave war ending. Any continued denial of this by anyone , anywhere on Planet Bob, is freaking ridiculous. There was no move to be made to prevent it from happening. If the NG-NPO.. NG-IRON... INT-IRON... NPO-TLR.. NPO-GATO... TIO-GATO relationships could not prevent it.. do you really think tying MORE to what would become EQ, would have stopped it? That's ridiculous.

 

Ah, I see. You equate hitting DH to hitting CnG somehow. Well allow me to clarify, hitting DH did not equate to hitting CnG. See how easy that was?

[rsoxbronco1]

CnG's harm or success was never a topic of discussion. Again, IRON did not declare war on any signatory of CnG and neither did any IRON ally iirc. Why are you trying so hard to vilify IRON?

 

 

Ah, I see. You equate hitting DH to hitting CnG somehow. Well allow me to clarify, hitting DH did not equate to hitting CnG. See how easy that was?

An attack on one is an attack on all.

[magicninja]

CnG's harm or success was never a topic of discussion. Again, IRON did not declare war on any signatory of CnG and neither did any IRON ally iirc. Why are you trying so hard to vilify IRON?

 

 

Ah, I see. You equate hitting DH to hitting CnG somehow. Well allow me to clarify, hitting DH did not equate to hitting CnG. See how easy that was?

 

It was a point of contention even if it wasn't brought up. You had to cancel with NPO over it. You say that NPO was trying to do CnG a favor or protect us or not see us rolled etc....which means you must have had the opposite stance of not doing us any favors, not wanting to help out an ally's bloc and wanted to see us rolled.... If none of that is true of IRON...it wouldn't be a problem would it?

[Azaghul]

My point is very simple: All the drama surrounding EQ coalition, including this cancellation, is your fault. Why? Because you signed treaties and established objectives that would put your allies in opposite sides of a war and I think you were smart enough to knew that would be impossible to conciliate all the interests and someone would get hurt in the end. Despise that, you keep trying to avoid all the responsibility for what happened and is still happening. You keep trying to use Polaris or someone else as a scapegoat, but at the end of the day, you and those who signed and kept treaties with NPO, including IRON, are the ones to be blamed. The lesson everyone should learn is that before go after someone, reevaluate your treaties and see if your allies will be fucked in the process, if the answer is yes, then don't go to war. Keep treaties with alliances that have different objectives and hope for the best isn't the right thing to do.

NPO signed treaties with NPO and NG long before eQ started to take shape.  Ties that formally weren't conflicting became conflicting.  That can happen to any alliance with ties to more than one power sphere, and nearly every politically significant alliance has ties to more than one power sphere.

 

There's little reason to cancel treaties and ties if you can figure out a way to make it work in spite of being on opposite sides during a war.  C&G and NPO seem to have figured that out.  And NPO left plenty of room for their other allies in eQ to get the war they wanted.

On an unrelated note, the saddest part about our side losing is that I didn't get the chance to try to get our coalition to impose a term that the other side had to make public their coalition logs from after NpO and others hit TLR.  That whole episode, after all the "undeclarations" on MK trying to avoid bringing NG in, was one of the funniest and greatest things I've ever seen in this world.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Azaghul

[Schattenmann]

It is doubtful you intended this, but your characterization of supporting actors as dogs on a leash, applies to every one who supported the coalition, to all of your members, and to any alliance in your orbit. It's really the perception of this sort of attitude which harmed NPO in the past and I think it underpins IRON, Sengoku, and other's recent foreign policy adjustments. Just saying. :/

 

The man says what he means.

 

NPO signed treaties with NPO and NG long before eQ started to take shape.  Ties that formally weren't conflicting became conflicting.  That can happen to any alliance with ties to more than one power sphere, and nearly every politically significant alliance has ties to more than one power sphere.

 

NPO told NG explicitly that their aim was to attack DH as far back as December.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Schattenmann

[magicninja]

I have looked at the numbers and you know what they tell me: GATO is objectively one of the worst alliances in the game. You're engagement in the last war was piss poor, no one and I mean no one in the coalition took you seriously. From our perspective your alliance was such an inept pile of trash, we even considered tasking those arrayed against you with a double duty as the threat you represented was all but an afterthought. Don't kid yourself, you are an old alliance, but that doesn't make you a good one. 

The war itself aside you're growth stats are laughable. At this very moment you have roughly half of the people you could have buying tech, and even then they're buying less than half of what they should be. You have 23% aid slot usage. Less than half your alliance has an SDI, and roughly a quarter have WRC. No magicninja, the fact that the ratios you are so proud of exist is an artifact of how useless your alliance has been in the past, not an indication of how great it will be in the future. That you are sanctioned is a consequence of your ineffectiveness in war, not your management in peace.

 

Yes we had to fight a limited war to do maximum destruction while taking minimum damage....that is kind of the goal of war........ Like I said son't take us seriously. That is fine with me. That we are one of the most well built alliances...without even living up to our full potential is quite astounding....thanks for pointing that out. For a mass recruiting alliance with almost 200 members I'll take 25% WRCs....even not counting the likely dozens of ghosts (Why do they choose us? Stupid drop down) you did.

[iamthey]

This entire notion is 100% absurd. The hit on DH began its planning stages nearly the moment (maybe even a few days prior to)... the Dave war ending. Any continued denial of this by anyone , anywhere on Planet Bob, is freaking ridiculous. There was no move to be made to prevent it from happening. If the NG-NPO.. NG-IRON... INT-IRON... NPO-TLR.. NPO-GATO... TIO-GATO relationships could not prevent it.. do you really think tying MORE to what would become EQ, would have stopped it? That's ridiculous.

 

Edit: Add to the above relationships that AI decided not to maintain Olympus' treaty with TLR because "we were too close to MK"... Come on man.. The writing on the wall could not have been more clear.

 

I have no familiarity with IRON's overtures to CnG, I am going off of what you just said (that apparently IRON was reaching out to CnG). I'm curious as to what you're interpretation of this behavior was. If it was insincere, what was it then setting about to accomplish (Notably while IRON remained tied to TOP and Umbrella)? 

[Heft]

It was a point of contention even if it wasn't brought up. You had to cancel with NPO over it. You say that NPO was trying to do CnG a favor or protect us or not see us rolled etc....which means you must have had the opposite stance of not doing us any favors, not wanting to help out an ally's bloc and wanted to see us rolled.... If none of that is true of IRON...it wouldn't be a problem would it?

We didn't cancel with NPO because of you. If you wish IRON to be your enemy then that is on you, not us. You can repeat yourself until you are blue in the face, but that will not make your interpretations any more correct.

[Azaghul]

NPO told NG explicitly that their aim was to attack DH as far back as December.

And the NG treaty and relationship predates that.

[magicninja]

We didn't cancel with NPO because of you. If you wish IRON to be your enemy then that is on you, not us. You can repeat yourself until you are blue in the face, but that will not make your interpretations any more correct.

 

How else should it be interpreted..... If it wasn't an issue...it wouldn't have been brought up to begin with. If we had no part no need to mention it but you felt it necessary to point out that NPO helped CnG so that was part of the reason we needed to cancel. By all means.....explain it to me Heft. You know how hard headed I can be once I have my mind set. I see IRON claiming NPO not wanting to see CnG rolled is a problem. Can you not see how that looks to us? Especially GATO and TLR seeing as we were NPO's links to CnG during the war? What did you expect us to think? 

[Heft]

How else should it be interpreted..... If it wasn't an issue...it wouldn't have been brought up to begin with. If we had no part no need to mention it but you felt it necessary to point out that NPO helped CnG so that was part of the reason we needed to cancel. By all means.....explain it to me Heft. You know how hard headed I can be once I have my mind set. I see IRON claiming NPO not wanting to see CnG rolled is a problem. Can you not see how that looks to us? Especially GATO and TLR seeing as we were NPO's links to CnG during the war? What did you expect us to think? 

I have explained it. The problem was that NPO was torn in multiple directions precisely at the moment we needed them in one direction. That one of the competing directions happened to be you is immaterial. It could have very well been someone else, and the end result would have been the same. Clearly, IRON does not have a great relationship with most of C&G, and I don't envy Int their current position, and I hope and trust that we will do whatever is necessary to alleviate any concerns they may have. But attempts to paint this cancellation as a shot at C&G are misguided and wrong. 

[Schattenmann]

And the NG treaty and relationship predates that.

 

NPO decided to give DH theirs the minute Umbrella attacked NATO and l337/MK lied about their part in it, and then spent months working it out with everyone including NG pre- and post-upgrade.  But, hey, bud, if you're cool with allies who actively plot against you with their other allies, it was your surrender to sign.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Schattenmann

[Dcrews]

Does bcortell run Sengoku? No? Then the first leash is Sengoku. During the war who did Sengoku come in for? Ai, then they hold the second. Do I really have to do remedial explanations?

There were a lot of bad posts itt, this one was up there.

Good luck.

[Joe Kremlin]

Yesterday I was worried that this thread wouldn't deliver. Thank you IRON for this wonderful gift to the OWF.

[magicninja]

I have explained it. The problem was that NPO was torn in multiple directions precisely at the moment we needed them in one direction. That one of the competing directions happened to be you is immaterial. It could have very well been someone else, and the end result would have been the same. Clearly, IRON does not have a great relationship with most of C&G, and I don't envy Int their current position, and I hope and trust that we will do whatever is necessary to alleviate any concerns they may have. But attempts to paint this cancellation as a shot at C&G are misguided and wrong. 

 

That one of the directions was us and you took exception to it is not immaterial. It obviously mattered for some other reason other than what...NPO wasn't focused? There had to be something more substantial than that or else you're just being petty and jealous. Seems to me you (or perhaps your pals) wanted to throw more people at us (to what end I don't know....it wouldn't have mattered in the slightest. We weren't going anywhere and the 20+ should have been enough....) and NPO didn't like it so you got sad and cancelled. The cancellation itself may not be a shot at CnG but the connotations surrounding sure the hell are. Some of you seem to think that throwing bodies at CnG would have accomplished something.....What? You expected us and NG to bow out from some imaginary pressure and let you and all of EQ hit Umb and DH with us on the sidelines? Was that the plan that was ruined? It was never going to happen regardless of who said what. So in the end NPO probably stuck up for us for not much (While very much appreciated one ally to another you could have sent everyone after us and it would have made little difference except us taking slightly more damage...those who could be covered by derp were and our upper tiers would have dominated anything new ) and you cancelled on them for pretty much nothing that being the case. You really lost nothing from NPO sticking up for us in whatever manner they did. So again, I still don't see why there had to be a problem even with your half-hearted bullshit explanation.  

[xR1 Fatal Instinct]

Yes we had to fight a limited war to do maximum destruction while taking minimum damage....that is kind of the goal of war........ Like I said son't take us seriously. That is fine with me. That we are one of the most well built alliances...without even living up to our full potential is quite astounding....thanks for pointing that out. For a mass recruiting alliance with almost 200 members I'll take 25% WRCs....even not counting the likely dozens of ghosts (Why do they choose us? Stupid drop down) you did.

 

Yeah fight a limited war... You have a different story now than you did back when the "Great GATO War Machine" was going to be coming out of peace mode to destroy us all. Shut up.

 

You can't take care of your own ghosts? Real great alliance you've got there.

[OverlordShinnra]

My dealings with IRON have been nothing but pleasant. The diplomats they send to us are top notch and I wish them nothing but the best going forward. 

 

NPO, it is hard to get told you aren't good enough anymore, I know it. I want you to know I am here for you both to comfort you and take IRON's sloppy seconds :wub: .  :wub:

[Farrin Xies]

My dealings with IRON have been nothing but pleasant. The diplomats they send to us are top notch and I wish them nothing but the best going forward. 
 
NPO, it is hard to get told you aren't good enough anymore, I know it. I want you to know I am here for you both to comfort you and take IRON's sloppy seconds :wub: .  :wub:

Even with this cancellation, I still like IRON. You can disagree and still like someone.

Also, thank God we've got someone on whose shoulder we can cry. :P

[magicninja]

Yeah fight a limited war... You have a different story now than you did back when the "Great GATO War Machine" was going to be coming out of peace mode to destroy us all. Shut up.

 

You can't take care of your own ghosts? Real great alliance you've got there.

 

We were going to. That hasn't changed. I meant limited in the sense that we had to fight from the top down. We just ran out of time I guess. We'll destroy you next time if it will make you feel better. We'll see if you guys can muster up anything over 50k.  

 

on ghosts....We don't care to most of the time. for every 1 we force off 2 more pop up. We don't have a hundred 1000 ns guys on the real roster to deal with all of them at once. Its fruitless and most of our new guys that could engage grow out of range the first day they join. Also hey there's the added bonus of masking what we truly have going on. Not that an alliance like yours would know the problems we have up here up top anyway. i.e. Huge swing and a miss Jim.

[Commander shepard]

We're one of the best built alliances with competent leadership and members more than willing to fight and follow orders? Hell our alliance infra to tech is 8:5...better than all non-neutrals in the top 12 save NG and MK, and Umb (No wonder EQ'a top end got obliterated.....) if I'm reading this right....We're about even with MK actually but they have less members so they get the leg up. What? You didn't know GATO was militarily relevant? 

 

If you're one of the best built alliances, how come needed to keep most of your alliance in PM.

A well built alliances would have all angles covered and not need to use PM on such a large scale.

And if the war did last longer, yours and the other well built alliances would have no problem.
 

You know how hard headed I can be 

Yup

Edited May 24, 2013 by Commander shepard

[magicninja]

If you're one of the best built alliances, how come needed to keep most of your alliance in PM.

A well built alliances would have all angles covered and not need to use PM on such a large scale.

And if the war did last longer, yours and the other well built alliances would have no problem.
 

 

Yup

 

20+ alliances on 5 makes it pretty pretty obvious.....no alliance could stand up to that without playing to strengths. Which we did well....as did some others on our side...some didn't have the chance and some of us were VE.  

[Omniscient1]

The more infighting in this thread between the alliances that made up eQ, the more you prove my point that eQ (as a political movement, not individual alliances) would have absolutely collapsed under the weight of it's own incompetence if not for NPO at the helm.
 
The divergence between what various factions wanted and didn't want was comical at the time, and almost sad now.
 
This is what happens when a bunch of people who don't know how to win manage to not lose.

Ummm this may be news to you, but all coalitions break up after war. It has every time post-GW II.

[Rush Sykes]

Ummm this may be news to you, but all coalitions break up after war. It has every time post-GW II.

 

Yes, but generally the cores stay together. The core on this one.. is in a shambles. Not even you with your fantastical mind could deny that.

[D34th]

NPO signed treaties with NPO and NG long before eQ started to take shape.  Ties that formally weren't conflicting became conflicting.  That can happen to any alliance with ties to more than one power sphere, and nearly every politically significant alliance has ties to more than one power sphere.

 

There's little reason to cancel treaties and ties if you can figure out a way to make it work in spite of being on opposite sides during a war.  C&G and NPO seem to have figured that out.  And NPO left plenty of room for their other allies in eQ to get the war they wanted.

On an unrelated note, the saddest part about our side losing is that I didn't get the chance to try to get our coalition to impose a term that the other side had to make public their coalition logs from after NpO and others hit TLR.  That whole episode, after all the "undeclarations" on MK trying to avoid bringing NG in, was one of the funniest and greatest things I've ever seen in this world.

 

The problem with the treaties becoming conflicting predates the creation of EQ, it started when they were created since the grudge between Umbrella and NPO already existed at the time, may be NPO plan was try to steal Umbrella base support, but they failed hard since NG, TLR and GATO all fought(if someone counts what GATO did as fighting) for Umbrella, not matter if they were willing or not. So NPO signed treaties with alliances that they knew would support DH not matter what while gunning for an alliance in DH.

 

But hey, It really worked out after all, didn't it? NPO just lose one major ally after all and managed to upset may be just half of their coalition during the war.

[Commander shepard]

20+ alliances on 5 makes it pretty pretty obvious.....no alliance could stand up to that without playing to strengths. Which we did well....as did some others on our side...some didn't have the chance and some of us were VE.  

 A lot of which were small alliances and some of the big ones were ineffective.

And it wasn't 20+ alliances vs 5.

Umbrella, MK, NoR, HB, EvU and Hooligans all had involvement on your side of the war too.

I think if all those alliances worked together then you could have done a lot better, it would have been bad for EQ if you worked together effectively.

 

If playing to strengths is limiting damage by keeping members in PM then you did do it well, however cowardice is not something to brag about.

Trying to get out of a war against opponents you really dislike is confusing especially since you still want to war them.

VE fought and tested the alliances they fought and kept them with their eye on the ball, with GATO I imagine their opponents got bored and were just waiting for the inevitable victory.