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What's With these Alliances?????


aadverse

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Having helped found an allince let me give you the typical life of the allince that does what you seek.

1. Members join, Party time

2. Members start to go about in

3. Members A. D and E go tech raid, Member E does something stupid like tech raid a member in a sanctioned allince.

4. Hell breaks loose, as E gets warned to stop and pay reps and go "eh, no I don't think so"

5. Sanctioned Alliance goes to leadership, who tell E to do what they say.

6. E goes "No", and leaders either go "oh !@#$... lets leave him to be killed" or they drag their feet and Sanctioned allince attacks the whole allince rather then just E.

7. Alliance looks to leadership to see what happened/why or just run. If leadership doesn't explain ahead of time E is being a idiot, the members think Leadership is weak. They either bail ship or !@#$%* and complain.

8. Alliance falls apart and the members that don't find a new home, become tech raid targets themselves.

I'm half asleep or I'd clean that up to read better.

However the only way to avoid that is to create strict rules and regulations to be followed.

In case of AID what you're looking for is near imposable, there are few AA's that will hand over money for nothing. They preface it however they want (stay 2 weeks get it, it's a 'loan' ect) because what happens otherwise is A joins, A gets 3 mil, A leaves and joins someone else, A gets 3 mil, A leaves and joins... ect. Money leaves the allince and next time, the 'banks' don't want to part with money. So to make sure it's going to stay in the AA, at least long enough to benefit the team as a whole (10 days, a month, whatever) they put some sort of leash on it (minmum time joined, pay if back if you leave, ect). In fact many have rules in place that if you take aid and run while it's still on your aid screen (10 days), they will contact you're new allince to force repayment, or attack to get it back.

All that said and done, you can find some places that are more lax then others, I know the Alliance I'm in is one of them (we DO have rules mostly in line of tech raids). If a war happens because you bear the Alliance name you may be attacked but we don't actively (yet) force you to fight in it. We would post targets or in some way communicate a need for someone to step up. We do track who actively helps and doesn't but it's not like you'll find the leadership military at your back if you go "I don't have the time/money to fight this time"

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This post is so true. Unfortunatley, if you don't join alliances you are usually crushed by them. It is hard to find a good alliance that actually cares about you and will help you without getting something in return. I'm still looking at alliances to join, I think I've settled on one. My advice is don't join any of the sanctioned alliances, none of them seem to be as great as the recruitment offers they send to you. Plus, I think most of them allow tech raiding but I'm not sure on that.

I hate tech raiders so much, I've never been tech raided before but it sure does seem like a cheap-$@! way to ruin somebody's fun while piling on more useless tech.

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This post is so true. Unfortunatley, if you don't join alliances you are usually crushed by them. It is hard to find a good alliance that actually cares about you and will help you without getting something in return. I'm still looking at alliances to join, I think I've settled on one. My advice is don't join any of the sanctioned alliances, none of them seem to be as great as the recruitment offers they send to you. Plus, I think most of them allow tech raiding but I'm not sure on that.

I hate tech raiders so much, I've never been tech raided before but it sure does seem like a cheap-$@! way to ruin somebody's fun while piling on more useless tech.

Being tech-raided does suck, anyone that has can tell ya.

Alliances are about protection, but mostly about friendship and comraderie.When I was in the NPO, I had made many friends and comrades, some of whom I still talk to every so often. When you join an alliance, make sure you like the group. If you can, go onto their IRC channel, talk to them a bit and see what they're like.

just my 2 cents.

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i totally agree with the op here, basically within baout 5 minutes of joining i had been barraged with about 15 or so emails from different alliances, after goign through all of there forums and taking a look at the rules they all seemed exactly the same to me, pretty much all of them were wanting me to clear every trade, war (i can understand the war), aid & pretty much anything else that might affect another nation through them, in the edn i joined one due to real lack of options (the gpa) i pretty much resigend within 2 days, i had to clear any trade i wanted to do with anyone outside of the alliance on the forums before i could even offer it, same with aid, i even had to clear people who wanted to give me aid, apparently trading with anyone who was at war was illegal, even if they were on the same team, i just couldnot understand this, i mean i could see the use for the peopel higher up in the "dictatorship" that most alliances are, but i just couldnt see where there was any kind of efficency in having to clear every single trade/aid income of outgoing with them

wow, i havnt typed that much in ages, its probably going to be rather small on the page, but there

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i totally agree with the op here, basically within baout 5 minutes of joining i had been barraged with about 15 or so emails from different alliances, after goign through all of there forums and taking a look at the rules they all seemed exactly the same to me, pretty much all of them were wanting me to clear every trade, war (i can understand the war), aid & pretty much anything else that might affect another nation through them, in the edn i joined one due to real lack of options (the gpa) i pretty much resigend within 2 days, i had to clear any trade i wanted to do with anyone outside of the alliance on the forums before i could even offer it, same with aid, i even had to clear people who wanted to give me aid, apparently trading with anyone who was at war was illegal, even if they were on the same team, i just couldnot understand this, i mean i could see the use for the peopel higher up in the "dictatorship" that most alliances are, but i just couldnt see where there was any kind of efficency in having to clear every single trade/aid income of outgoing with them

wow, i havnt typed that much in ages, its probably going to be rather small on the page, but there

The GPA have the issue that since the Valid incident they a=have to be very careful about how neutral they are. Any action they take they make sure it is not interfering with alliance politics. (aiding alliances at war, and since spy operations, possibly trading with them.

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sorry, whats the valid incedent?

An ex-leader of GPA basically upset nearly every major military alliance in the game causing them to revoke GPA's stance on neutrality. They are still in the process of recovering from that and are working extra hard to make sure there is nothing to tarnish their image further. They are getting back a lot of lost respect, but they aren't quite done yet. If they felt restrictive, it was out of necessity, not spite.

I think that this is what is difficulty for newer players to understand. Restrictions within an alliance are not (usually) placed to give power to a cabal of dictators. Yes, there are some bad apples out in the alliance world, but few of these rise to prominence or stay there for very long. Most restrictions on national sovereignty are put in place to ensure the continued safety of the entirety of the alliance. You may not like having to clear going to war, or being prevented from doing so all together, but the leadership needs to take into consideration that not all nations are truly responsible, nor do they understand the game perfectly when they start. Because of this, it is very easy for a nation to attack someone they shouldn't and drag the alliance into an unnecessary war. There is no way to know ahead of time who is and is not responsible, so you can't realistically expect an alliance to do anything but restrict everyone in the same way.

Similarly, an alliance cannot tell apart nations who wish to contribute and stick with them from those who only want a quick cash injection and will bail at the first sign of trouble or another offer. If they give out bag-fulls of money to everyone as soon as they join, no strings attached, a lot of nations will "sign up" for the cash before moving on to the alliance they really want to be in. This is thee reason why new nations need to prove themselves. We don't get entertainment from making you jump through hoops. We just need to know we can trust you, because not everyone can be.

Believe me, if I could give a blanket, "do anything you want, don't worry about it" statement to my alliance and have everything work out fine, I would be the happiest leader on earth. The stuff you see as designed to give nations higher up power over the others, more times than not, actually requires a good amount of often very tedious work to keep running smoothly. The leadership of successful alliances don't gain their positions by being power hungry dictators. They get there by knowing how to run an organization of a few hundred people. Look at some of the sanctioned alliances and actually think about those numbers. 800 people is larger than my town's 7-12 high school. You expect the people in charge of running an group that size to do so without placing boundaries and have it work effectively? Even the moderately sized 200-300 member alliance that are around are huge when you consider that those statistics represent actual people. The leadership of each is responsible for protecting the work of literally hundreds of people. That responsibility, to be honest, means that a few personal freedoms may have to be sacrificed, or at least cut back on in the same way free speech is limited by the inability to shout "Fire!" in a crowded theater. Those who give up freedom for security may not deserve either, but complete freedom at the expense of everyone's safety is no better of an extreme.

To quote a great leader in CN, "All things in moderation."

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It really all depends on the alliance you join, there are a bunch of dictator alliances that have a supreme ruler that cannot be ousted.

And there are other alliances that are completely democratic that let you have an equal say in everything, which you seem to be interested in joining.

(everyone else is doing it)

The Federation is fully democratic, every position and law and everything is equally voted on.

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see i can understand war restrictions, but waht i cant understand is trade restrictiosn, i mean waht can an alliance loose for one of there members trading with someone else?

I can answer this because of a recent situation in my own alliance. One of our members paid for a trade. Unbeknown to this nation, the player he aided was currently the enemy of another powerful alliance who wanted him destroyed. It is a rare thing that trades will result in a situation like this, but again, GPA cannot afford to take any risks with their image at the moment.

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I will only address your concern from the view of my alliance The Order f the Paradox, but some of it goes for alliances too.

We are demoratic with bi monthly elections and our elected do have some power to order the general assembly around. We can on the other hand vote him out of office if he isn't in agreement of the majority. While many of the government officials are old members with great records we have had some who got the highest government positions within two or three months (essentially is was their 2nd election they have seen and tried themselves and won. Government changes every 2nd month)

The Order has only two real restriction and that is that you offensively enter a without government approvement and you may not hold dual membership (ie be part of two alliance). What trade you have is not really our business, but there is better resources combinations out there and we really, really want to help you optimize your nation. While we are an orange alliance, we do not require you to be orange (some alliances do require this since it helps to protect you from the powers of the senators), but encourage you to be part of orange awesomeness :awesome: .

Aid:

Back in the days (like until half a year ago) we did literrally send several 3 million aid packages to all smaller nations of the Order without any requirements, it was purely the generosity of members of the order. Sadly two things happened:

1. Some were unable to utilize the money given correctly and bought useless things like tanks, excessive land or buying so much infra without keeping an eye on their soldiers and caused their nation to be ravaged by anarchy.

2. Some entered only stayed and recieved a lot of aid and then left us when they didn't see any more aid (hah, more was to be found but these guys don't really try)

Now the first is unfortunate, but we all do mistakes. I have bill-locked myself twice and had to be bailed out with an 2 million and 300 tousands packages :P

It is a bit annoying, since to a certain degree we see the lack of knowlegde as a lack of interest in the game which is unfortunate.

The other group is totally unacceptible. While the monetary amount is only drops in a large see of money, aid slots are limited and if we see you waste these without improving yourselves for the Order, you will anger us. More importantly an not so insignificant real life time by quite a few members is invested in giving you the optimal start in this game.

As such, all money given is done voluntarily by various members and you do not owe a penny to us. Really, we do not require you to give it back to us. What many fail to realise is that this kind of giving out aid is supposed to encourage you to do the same. Why shouldn't you?

What took us oldies 6-9 months to achieve can be done in merely 20 days today.

If you ever learn how much income a nation with more than 4000 infrastructure gets you will learn that no matter how much you "owe them", you wil still give you an advantage over some who didn't recieve our Dev. Aid program. 30 million is pebbles for you at that point.

Hence we have decided that if you should decide to leave us without helping the Order with a single cent, we are going to demand you to pay it all back with interest. We are great to our friends and allies but don't expect mercy when you waste our time and goodwill.

The Order of the Paradox does have some admission tests that pretty much gives you all knowlegde the Order has about nation building, nation warfare in the game and about us and our alliance. This was done because most alliances have the so called "inactive" members. They join, then newer visit the forum or irc channels again. We do not want these kind of members. Call it cherry picking but people who don't ever show up at all to anything is at best a huge liability for the security of us. We cannot rely on inactives to aid us or help in war and peace. At worst they randomly attacks nations wasting rl time for the government that could be used on better things. I must admit that I was middle ground towards admission tests, but the good response from those who actually took it, have changed my mind.

Anyways, you seem become decent contributing member of any community you join and it not your faulth many alliances are the way they are. It's the faulth of those who abused the older, generous ways.

Oh we don't actively recruit but people are welcome to visit us if they want. :blush:

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I think that this is what is difficulty for newer players to understand. Restrictions within an alliance are not (usually) placed to give power to a cabal of dictators. Yes, there are some bad apples out in the alliance world, but few of these rise to prominence or stay there for very long. Most restrictions on national sovereignty are put in place to ensure the continued safety of the entirety of the alliance. You may not like having to clear going to war, or being prevented from doing so all together, but the leadership needs to take into consideration that not all nations are truly responsible, nor do they understand the game perfectly when they start. Because of this, it is very easy for a nation to attack someone they shouldn't and drag the alliance into an unnecessary war. There is no way to know ahead of time who is and is not responsible, so you can't realistically expect an alliance to do anything but restrict everyone in the same way.

Similarly, an alliance cannot tell apart nations who wish to contribute and stick with them from those who only want a quick cash injection and will bail at the first sign of trouble or another offer. If they give out bag-fulls of money to everyone as soon as they join, no strings attached, a lot of nations will "sign up" for the cash before moving on to the alliance they really want to be in. This is thee reason why new nations need to prove themselves. We don't get entertainment from making you jump through hoops. We just need to know we can trust you, because not everyone can be.

QFT - great post Delta!

And hi thedestro - haven't seen you in ages!!!!

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At the Federation we generally don't undermine the soverignty of nations. In fact nations have the right to come and go as they please and we generally don't impose strict rules or anything. Nations have inaleinable rights in the Constitution. Although we do have some rules, namely the rule of don't do anything to get yourself in trouble (no wars without getting clearance from the government, don't give foreign aid to people on another alliance's hitlist) but those rules are in every alliance because they are just common sense (although some alliances allow wars against those without aliance affiliations, we don't though)

Anyway I once was a person who didn't like alliances. But once my brother's nation was attacked I realised that alliances are a neccessary evil to protect people from attacks. Take care, you have a great independent spirit

Edited by Stylesjl
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It is rare to find a new guy who can actually type. lol.

Don't give up your search. There are a lot of GREAT alliances out there who will offer you protection, education and aid without being overly restrictive. I would recommend The Phoenix Collective. They are very generous to their active members and have been a great protector for my alliance. And if you ask me really nicely after joining TPC, I'll set you up with tech trades every ten days and you'll grow like crazy!

TPC forums:

http://tpc.b1.jcink.com/index.php?act=idx

As far as my alliance goes, sorry, unless you :wub: AK47s, we probably aren't the right alliance for you. ;)

Seriously though, good luck in your search.

Edited by phillip110
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It's nice to see some new blood with ideals much like my alliance, the Brigade. My position of Guardian (there are three of us), is specifically designed to keep government in check while being sure that all members opinions are heard. I see that you have found MHA, a very good and respectable alliance. I wish you luck. :)

Edited by crawlerbot
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