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What's With these Alliances?????


aadverse
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I am a new player, and I admit to some trepidation about being able to participate effectively in this game. Now, within the 24 hours I have been registered, I have received all sorts of seemingly wonderful offers geared towards convincing me to join one alliance or another. I actually thought I had made a proper choice until I found out the many, MANY conditions which are imposed in exchange for help in becoming a slightly stronger starter nation.

It seems that these alliances generally offer a tantalizingly large amount of start-up money, in exchange for the equivalent of absolute political submission. Upon joining, literally every international action requires permission and/or approval of the leader(s) of the alliance. Some of the alliances seem to be virtual dictatorships, with old founders or their appointees holding positions almost impossible to be ousted from. Many require new players to jump through a series of hoops before being given "aid" that is actually merely a loan due whenever the leadership decides to call it in, under pain of suspension, censure, and destruction in war.

None of that is what I am looking for in this game. I am looking for an alliance for mutual gain, one where the older, richer countries help me build myself up in exchange for loyal support in elections, military action, and general diplomacy; but which do NOT stifle my own national independence. I am seeking immediate "aid" in the form of financial gifts sufficient to build me up to a reasonable level so that I can participate as an effective member of the alliance; direct guidance on how best to do so; and sovereignty in my own affairs. I do not seek long or short-term loans; submission of my sovereign diplomacy, or to become the servant/footsoldier of some power hungry cabal or despot. Whats with all these academies, universities and tests?? I don't mind learning, but I do mind expending valuable game time unable to advance the development of my nation while I attempt to prove I deserve the money and initial guidance that comes with it.

Aren't there ANY alliances that actually provide ALLIANCES, not national subversion? Provide financial aid without a lot of misleading requirements? Any of you OUT there? If so please let me know.

Edited by aadverse
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Either you join an alliance and obey their rules or you can stay unaligned growing very slow and eventually a random larger nation will smash you in a tech raid.

It may not be fair, but that's how things work on Planet Bob.

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Comrade Vladimir wrote an excellent piece regarding true sovereignty coming through joining an alliance, not through maintaining unaffiliated status. If I can find it, I'll link it here, since I won't pretend to possess the same level of wisdom as he.

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Join or don't join, it is your choice.

Just remember, if you do not have the protection of a

serious alliance... enjoy getting tech-raided.

Life in Cyberverse is not fair or just.

I am well-aware of the predatory nature of this game. And who said anything about "fair?" I am simply asking if there are any truly benevolent alliances out there, and if so.. hook me up! :blink:

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The Aquatic Brotherhood, my alliance, is rooted in democratic ideals. We don't loan you money, we aid you. We work on the principle of what real world allies do - help one another out in times of need and hinder no one. Our structure is dependent on a transparent democracy - Finance is controlled by an elected official who would be ousted by our Justice mechanisms if she were to be found guilty of corruption. The same principles apply to all our branches of popularly elected government.

When you mean "sovereignty" you must assume that, just like in RL, you will have constraints on said sovereignty. You could not logically declare war on an aligned nation as they would retaliate in kind with their alliance army. If one alliance does give you money and another alliance member along the line requires it from you, it is common courtesy to help them out. Perhaps you haven't experienced enough of the social aspect of this game to grasp it substantially, but in the TAB, you are allowed your independence from "despotism" and "power politics" since we pride ourselves in being strong, loyal and respectable towards one another and to other nations on Planet Bob.

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@OP

Hmm, your dismay at the alliance advertising process is not a new one, although I am happily surprised that you managed to articulate your annoyance so professionally. You see, this 'level' of behaviour is not fantastically common amongst the cyberverse... whether this be a result of the average age of members, education level, or origin country is anyones guess. It is based upon this experiance that many alliances choose to subject new members to tests/universitys. However in most cases this is to ensure you can function as a member of the alliance without bringing any problems to it through national actions.

If like you say, you believe the alliance operates a very top-down approach, this may not be a bad thing. The alliance may experiance problems with activity and thus has decided that such a level of government is necessary. Alternatively, the leader(s) may just be complete ***-bandits.

Obviously, you prefer a more open system. In this case, you will be wanting to look for your own, smaller alliance. These alliances tend to lack the advertising wherewithall, establishment, and capability of the larger alliances. Indeed, many (including my own - the New Eclipse Order), regulary need to replace government members and have great trouble finding people with the necessary skills to fill them. Establishing yourself in one of these alliances may not just get you your aid, but also a chance to participate in the more involved part of the game. If you think this is a good idea, I suggest you look around the forum for the Alliance Stats (NS list). Look at the Tier 4 and 5 alliances - they tend to consist of a tight family like membership :)

I've no problems suggesting NEO, GUN, TPF, and TOOL

No matter what you choose,

Best of luck :)

Edited by Antartica North
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From what you've described, my alliance is all that you seek, although we do have a thirty day probation period but this is due to security concerns and to monitor your overall activity. After graduating the recruit stage, you would recieve a nice sum of about 3 million CN to get you going, and all the advice you could possibly need. I like to think that we're a friendly and fiercely loyal group with the qualities you're after, but don't let me tell you that.

My alliance does have policies regarding some aspects but they were democratically decided upon with the alliance being run through merit and elected individuals. Our charter, at least I feel is fair. You don't have total sovereignty if it contradicts our charter but the charter in turn is in place to protect and serve the alliance in its best interests.

If you're interested, just pop along to our forum and introduce yourself and ask any questions you may have. If you don't like what you see, then you're free to look elsewhere. Either way, I wish you all the best on Planet Bob :)

Edited by Nixon
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What you are speaking of varies from alliance to alliance, although the general feeling of joining an alliance will have in place what you have noted.

For example:

Alliances have found that being led through a dictatorship is very succesful, and it ensures that there is no chance of an ever changing administration, this allows the alliance to always be aiming for the same goals, and to not be taking U turns on matters when new officials are elected.

When joining an alliance you have to understand that alot of the processes which you speak of, are actually to protect the alliance, although you are a newcomer, there are those that have done wrong, and a longer application process ensures an alliance does not take on these people.

The whole point of aiding members of an alliance, is that the alliance grows in NS, but also the members give something in return for the aid, when you speak of aid being in the form of a loan, this may be adopted by an alliance so it prevents aid being sent out, and then the member never doing anything for the alliance, or even worse jumping ship from the alliance with the aid that could have gone to a more loyal member.

The whole idea of tests/acamedies etc is like you said, to help people learn, in Argo's case, we adopt the acamedy system to actually benefit our members, as they are encouraged to read guides and so they can build there nation better which in the long run will see quicker development of there nation.

As many people have said, you either join the alliance or not, but realise that CN has been around for a long time, the alliance system developed is an effective one, offers new players every oppurtunity they can imagine, but ask for a little in return.

P.S I dont think this guy is looking for recruitors to say how great there alliance is, he is merely looking to discuss the role of an alliance in CN.

Edited by Morey 2k7
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Well, I am sure the dictators find the situation successful and beneficial... for them. They get to act like power brokers, enjoying all the diplomatic fun. The member nations get to play follow the leader, and private soldier to their general/commander. I am sure the status quo leadership finds this extremely appealing.

However, I am not so sure most member nations would feel the same way, regardless of accepting safety in exchange for sovereignty. What was it Benjamin Franklin (a "Founding Father" of the USA, for all those unfamiliar with U.S. history) said? "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Still, I recognize that at the moment I am just a tiny voice crying in the wilderness. I also realize that as long as nations can only make two attacks per game-day, and can suffer unlimited attacks from groups of players, individual nations will have little chance of advancing or making a major mark on the CN world alone. Still, it would be nice if individual nations could grow and absorb territory. I would certainly like to see REAL borders around my nation and not be forced to share areas, only "influence" territory.

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Sounds like you may be interested in The Foreign Division my friend.

We are not a large alliance (curently 76 members) but have a good mixture of eager young nations and wise old heads. We cannot offer as much aid as other alliances (our usual offer is 250k - $500k) but this is provided by one of our members in the hope that one day you will be in a position to do the same to a new nation in your current position.

We have a fully democratic system and are always creating openings and encouraging members to get involved in the running of the alliance and make a difference. Some of these opportunities are paid, some are undertaken in the knowledge that we are making a contribution to our alliance and improving our understanding and enjoyment of the game.

We are a friendly yet determined bunch, interested in a friendly community, continual development and mutual assistance. We are a peaceful alliance and do not allow tech raiding or war mongoring and will only attack if provoked.

Edited by Pete Mardle
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I am well-aware of the predatory nature of this game. And who said anything about "fair?" I am simply asking if there are any truly benevolent alliances out there, and if so.. hook me up! :blink:

The Phoenix Collective would be one of those "truly benevolent" alliances. We take care of our own and there are no reprisals against people who choose to leave no matter how much aid they've received - we give freely or not at all.

Our belief is that the Alliance is stronger because of our cameraderie and esprit de corps.

You're welcome to come check us out. http://tpc.b1.jcink.com/index.php?act=idx

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I definitely understand your concerns Aadverse.

However, if you can see beyond the idealistic 'rights' you are claiming to lose, you'll find that very little is actually being suppressed. This realization might take some time, but you'll see that alliances really help. See, let's count the things you lose:

  • The ability to go to war with whomever you want (then again, in most alliances, if you are trigger happy, you can find an outlet for your aggression by fighting approved rogues and such)
  • The ability to buy nuclear weapons (not a problem for tiny nations, obviously. and, anyway, I've never in my life seen an alliance tell a nation not to buy a nuke)
  • You're forced to take tests, report your activity levels, and do certain tasks to prove yourself to the alliance (again, not a bad thing. alliances do this to ensure that new nations have learned how to play CN, and can succeed)
  • Top nations in the alliance 'profit' off you (actually, that's not how it works. generally (and i'm sure there are exceptions), the top nations in an alliance actually donate untold amounts of time and CN$$$ to their alliance, and help small nations in their alliance FAR more than the small nations help them)
  • Threats of being kicked out of the alliance, and even attacked, for inappropriate behavior (don't see anything wrong with that either; if you put your alliance in jeopardy, they aren't going to like it. feel free to get out of the alliance and exist for yourself, but you won't be able to come calling to them when you get in a jam)

I won't get into a list of benefits of being in an alliance, but let me assure you the list is extensive. Besides letting you survive as a nation, alliances offer social interaction (fun...), opportunities to move up in the ranks of govt (and yes, it is possible even in the larger alliances. can you lead GPA or NPO two weeks from now? No, but you can work your way up in every alliances just like in life), financial aid that you don't even realize, and a community to be a part of.

Each alliance offers different amounts of monetary aid. A word to the wise; don't get blown away by initial aid #'s ("we offer $10,000 a week" or "we give you $1,000,000 right away", etc) - instead, check out the alliance's infrastructure and their capacity to give you aid in the long run. For example, some alliances have heavy duty tech programs that can make nations a million dollars a week, while other alliance abandon their small nations after the initial "signing bonus". Some nations have mentor programs to help you out, while others use small nations to boost statistics. Do your research, look around a bit, try a couple alliances out, and I'm sure you'll find one that you like.

Feel free to PM me if you have any private questions or if you'd like my honest and unbiased opinion about any alliance in the game that you might be considering.

Winstonopia

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I am well-aware of the predatory nature of this game. And who said anything about "fair?" I am simply asking if there are any truly benevolent alliances out there, and if so.. hook me up! :blink:

No alliance in their right mind would accept you if you were not willing to fight to defend them, or were there simply to leech money off them. The Cyberverse is truly a Hobbesian world; if you go your own way you will be crushed, otherwise you surrender some sovereignty for mutual protection.

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Initial aid is rather meaningless, I recommed doing tech deals. 3m for 100 tech is becoming the standard and will get you about 1.5m proffit at the cost of 3 aid slots. Find any alliance you like and that will keep your butt out of the fire and just do tech deals with them as then you're free to leave at any time without getting in trouble for aid jacking. While i'm here I might aswell throw out a shameless plug. TTK offers a 3m starting package and we have many large nations buying tech who will become a constant supply of customers if you want to become a tech dealer, an absolute must if you want to have any chance of success in this game. You won't be able to tech raid and all wars will need to be preapproved but that's gonna be pretty standard anywhere you go.

-Veritas

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Everyone is going to recruit you here, so I might as well recommend you take a look at the New Pacific Order as an alliance.

But the bigger picture is that you're taking a look at how the alliances run in the wrong manner. The mandates most alliances do impose is the ability to declare war freely, for their entire membership's protection. There could be consequences on all of them if somebody decides to declare a rogue war, so a certain standard of order is always present. Some alliances will allow you to attack the unaligned freely, to steal their technology. (A caveat on this: don't raid red nations. They're protected even if unaligned.) Others will not. There are varying ways that leaders are chosen for all alliances, and standards that they will choose for admission. The fact is nobody wants you or any player to come in, take their money and run.

My own alliance does not run on an election-based system, but one of service, although we do have some elected positions. Positions in leadership are obtained by showing your devotion to the people of the alliance, rather than the self-serving interests that plague the democratic alliances. While we engage in many wars, we have probably the world's finest alliance bank, which is known for sending out billions in financial rebuilding aid once they conclude, rebuilding war-torn nations to even higher levels, providing new nations with the money to buy the harbor they need to make the most of trades, or even providing other needs, and they give this money again and again at the expense of their own growth, in the service of all.

From what you described, my alliance probably doesn't appeal to you, and it wouldn't have appealed to me when I was new, either, but over time, I realised it truly was the correct choice. You will hear the name of the New Pacific Order a great deal as you continue to play, whether in hate or in admiration, simply because of the tremendous influence we have. However, those who hate us are only eventually defeating themselves.

The choice is up to you at this point where to go, but if you choose to go somewhere else, don't forget what I've told you if you become disappointed.

If you do choose to remain independent, locating your nation on the red team is a great idea. The New Pacific Order will protect red nations at our discretion from raids as I've mentioned before (especially those who present cases on our forums in the Red Protection Court), which may even go so far as to declare war on your attackers if they refuse to offer peace, although we will not back you up if you choose to declare wars on others or provoke attacks by offending others. While not as safe or as rewarding as an alliance membership can be, it is an alternative for those who wish to avoid it for whatever personal reason. No other alliance offers this kind of protection.

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Everyone is going to recruit you here
Not everybody! B) Some people just give advice.

...and this is a very good point, right on:

But the bigger picture is that you're taking a look at how the alliances run in the wrong manner. The mandates most alliances do impose is the ability to declare war freely, for their entire membership's protection. There could be consequences on all of them if somebody decides to declare a rogue war, so a certain standard of order is always present. Some alliances will allow you to attack the unaligned freely, to steal their technology. (A caveat on this: don't raid red nations. They're protected even if unaligned.) Others will not. There are varying ways that leaders are chosen for all alliances, and standards that they will choose for admission. The fact is nobody wants you or any player to come in, take their money and run.
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If you want an alliance with freedom, you should create a small alliance yourself. Join a large one to build up your strength, then request that alliance to protect your new alliance tht you can create. Once your alliance is big enough, it can become independant.

Edited by Miles
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The reality is that alliances are run as real-life states in a lot of ways are rather as state coalitions. What Mr. Leader says, goes. That's the game that CN is. Remember though, every time you join/leave these alliances you don't like, you're exercising the sovereignty you crave ;)

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Unaligned is fine, I've been there and done that, my alliance is more than just protection to me. You get to know people there and become friends with them.

Here comes recruitment message.

GATO= Spanish for Cats

Now even though I personally like dogs more, things certainly are frisky in the alliance.

EDIT: Just browse around. Hell, join a few, see how you like them, don't stick with something you can't stand. There are many great alliances here, several of them have made their messages and given you plenty to know about them; I hold them in high regard. Your choices of an alliance are widespread.

Edited by Morte
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The reason alliances demand loyalty and certain behavior is that many many players don't actively contribute to their alliance. So if they are carrying their protection, they expect them not to cause trouble.

As for restricting attacks, thats common sense. An alliance won't allow you to hit the red team fro example as that = suicide for the alliance. They won't let you aid nations at war because that is considered an act of war, and can often = suicide.

As for the dictatorships, many alliances are dictatorships because thats how they work. Others are democratic because thats how it works. However, incumbent active players often stay in power (as I have achieved in my various alliances) because that is how the politics works.

With your ideals, I suggest you join Nations empowered against totalitarianism (NEAT). They use direct democracy, but do have some limits on actions. The main one is that they do not allow tech raiding.

Their forums are here.

http://s1.zetaboards.com/NEAT/index/

And before someone points out that they are weak and defenseless, they have a PLUS protectorate agreement.

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Aren't there ANY alliances that actually provide ALLIANCES, not national subversion? Provide financial aid without a lot of misleading requirements? Any of you OUT there? If so please let me know.

Yes, there are.

PM me if you interested in learning more as there definitely are alliances that say "we give you lots of aid!" but there are also alliances where joining is not so much a one way benefit, but a mutual benefit.

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