Never bring an Umbrella to a gun fight

[jraenar]

[quote name='Jgoods45' timestamp='1358609409' post='3079944']
Some of the alliances in C&G have been allied to alliances in DH for years and we're not going to throw away those ties just because they are politically inconvenient.

Furthermore, there are many more alliances on your side we extremely dislike and I'm sure the feeling is mutual. Why would we run to your side?

It's going to be a fun war.
[/quote]
I should be in range after about two rounds, Jamie. Want to send nukes of lurve to each other? <3

[Jake Liebenow]

[quote name='Commander shepard' timestamp='1358620697' post='3080076']
Well it is really common sense, it would be stupid to assume it was about him before he attacked AI.
More than it is to do with the reason for the war and crap Umbrella has been doing since he went rogue, he got into peacemode after the first round and bought 25 nukes without interrupt and aimed them at his choice of AI nations when he left PM.

This round, he was set up to do the exact same.
[/quote]

So it was a terrible stagger, and Umb screwed up. I really fail to see your point. Can't blame Umb for being bloodthirsty and tripping over their own two feet to smack their rogue - I mean, clearly, your side is able to taste that bloodlust right now.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Jake Liebenow

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Jake Liebenow' timestamp='1358620774' post='3080077']
By this logic, Deinos should've declared war on The Grey Council during the Zoom fiasco.
[/quote]
Don't know what that is but maybe you should have.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1358601147' post='3079862']
The issue isn't with what my allies in NPO and TIO have done. I'm fine with it. They did what they felt they needed to. I wish them the best. The criticism is for those few individuals claiming this to be the best CB they have ever seen in all the history of Bob. It really isn't. It's good enough so I'm good with the war. I've fought for CBs shakier than this but there have been better CBs with more concrete proof. So all I want is for things to be called as they are and not overblown...in either direction. AI and pals I think do realize its a good enough CB but need to realize it isn't perfect and Umb and pals need to realize that while its not perfect alot of the evidence shows something fishy was happening.
[/quote]

I have not seen anyone claim this is the best CB ever in CN. Just that it is the best CB in a long time. Ranging from absolutely noCB, pre-emptive style attacks (such as DH-NPO) to Dave's war, I am inclined to believe that this is one of the best since Karma.

You are the only one who is making the claim that it is the best ever in all of history of Bob that I can see.

To me the evidence is pretty straightforward:

1) Puppets rogues Ai (not Umb)
2) Umb steals Puppets Slots (without once consulting Ai)
3) Ai hits Umb (without consulting Umb)

If Umb had conducted diplomacy with Ai [i]first[/i] as they should have, we may not be here. I am inclined to believe that Umb did not do so on purpose hoping it would cause a war. DH stated flat out, they were not goin to be the aggressors in the hopes that they can call "defenders".

[Xavii]

Everytime I think I'm out, they drag me back in.

I welcome the challenge!

Edited January 19, 2013 by Xavii

[MadScotII]

[quote name='Jake Liebenow' timestamp='1358620774' post='3080077']
By this logic, Deinos should've declared war on The Grey Council during the Zoom fiasco.
[/quote]

If they did what Umbrella did without speaking to you first then refused to apologise about it when they found out it annoyed you then yeah, you were well within your right to do so.

[Aeros]

[quote name='Jake Liebenow' timestamp='1358620953' post='3080082']
So it was a terrible stagger, and Umb screwed up. I really fail to see your point. Can't blame Umb for being bloodthirsty and tripping over their own two feet to smack their rogue - I mean, clearly, your side is able to taste that bloodlust right now.
[/quote]

Mo9P is not "their" rogue. Please show me where Ai became a party to this BIBO thingy. Or are you trying to argue Ai needs to respect Umbrella policy just because?

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1358602021' post='3079868']
A couple of months ago I said that NPO were a terrible ally to GATO because they would jump at a chance to to start a war with CnG allies. Brehon angrily denied it, but hey, it's two months later and I'm right and he's wrong.
[/quote]

The only reason DH are not the ones doing it is because they are scared of the consequences right? Otherwise, Umb and MK would find a way to have started this a lot sooner (and most likely without the attempt at a CB or some pathetic, crappyass one that they tend to use).

[quote name='Jake Liebenow' timestamp='1358620228' post='3080062']
And here, ladies and gentlemen, we see a progression of the logic of the CB from the other side. Minor though it may be, it IS rather significant.

Slot-filling is changed to [i]stealing the slots [/i]of AI.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it rather commendable that Umb would try to clean up their rogue problem? Unfortunate that neither side felt the need to communicate, but to suggest that this is anything other than good intentions is fallacious.
[/quote]


You do realize that slot-filling=slot stealing right? That is no leap. They are one and the same. And everyone knows that. There is no significant point that you have made because you have made absolutely no point at all. Umb filled Puppets slots, ie Umb stole the slots from Ai.

Same thing is same thing. The three defensive slots that Puppets has, were taken by Umb. It is not rocket science mate and you failed real hard in trying to come up with some massive leap I (well by your "logic"; our entire side despite this post being mine...talk about a leap heh?) of logic... Quite sad really.

No, it is not commendable of Umb. They let him slip at least once into PM. That is not cleaning up a rogue problem, that is allowing the rogue to do more damage. Umb should have talked with Ai about coordination against Puppets, if what you are suggesting is how they actually wanted to act. That is what most alliances would have done and what most alliances in the past [i]have[/i] done.

Fairly certain that if an Ai member went rogue on Umb, and Ai acted in the same manner as Umb has. Umb (and Deinos) would be extremely cheesed off and would be demanding or already at war with Ai. If not, then I can't wait to see what the future holds for either Umb and Deinos.


[quote name='Jake Liebenow' timestamp='1358620774' post='3080077']
Seems to me like Umb tried to fulfill their BIBO pact, did so poorly, and Mo9P is taking advantage of the situation by lying through his teeth. Rogues do like to create discord, after all.

Slot filling is not something that Umb likes to do, simply put. They/we were on the receiving end of that when fighting Zoom, and surely you're not suggesting that Umb is breaking the universal laws of Admin, are you? Aside from the above I just put forth, this would be the only other option.




By this logic, Deinos should've declared war on The Grey Council during the Zoom fiasco.
[/quote]

Yes, I am suggesting that Umb broke the universal conventions (laws no, there are no such things in CN, just standards and norms under the guise of convention mate).

And didn't Zoom hit GC as well? If so, then no, GC should have coordinated with y'all but they get at least 1 slot if he rogued them. If Zoom did not rogue GC and they filled all his slots, then yes, you could have warred them. But I honestly doubt that GC pulled what Umb did.

[Jake Liebenow]

[quote name='Aeros' timestamp='1358621264' post='3080088']
Mo9P is not "their" rogue. Please show me where Ai became a party to this BIBO thingy. Or are you trying to argue Ai needs to respect Umbrella policy just because?
[/quote]

Mo9P came from their AA. Fairly certain that it's not that much of a stretch to say that he's their rogue too. Make no mistake, I'm not disputing AI's claim, but it's a false dilemma to assume that Mo9P was solely the property of AI. Hell, I wish more alliances would help out in taking out their trash.

'course it wouldn't hurt for AI to respect Umb policy.

[Piejonk]

[quote name='Jake Liebenow' timestamp='1358620953' post='3080082']
So it was a terrible stagger, and Umb screwed up.
[/quote]

Do you really believe that?

From the declaration times, to the comments from Mo9P/Umb/AI that everyone has been seeing, I certainly find it hard to.

[Scorponok]

[quote name='lazaraus45' timestamp='1358619960' post='3080061']
Dear Umbrella,

You have 48 hours to surrender unconditonally to AI and allies,

if after 48 hours you have not done so, Tom Riddle will be permitted to directly mass PM you're membership with his insights into this war,

You have been warned.
[/quote]

A punishment no alliance deserves.

[MadScotII]

[quote name='Jake Liebenow' timestamp='1358621439' post='3080091']
Mo9P came from their AA. Fairly certain that it's not that much of a stretch to say that he's their rogue too. Make no mistake, I'm not disputing AI's claim, but it's a false dilemma to assume that Mo9P was solely the property of AI. Hell, I wish more alliances would help out in taking out their trash.

'course it wouldn't hurt for AI to respect Umb policy.
[/quote]

Why would we. We have never been consulted on it, not once. Nor are we a signatory of it. It would of been more prudent of course if Umbrella respected Ai. and let them know it was going to happen before it did - even ask for permission to do so.

[Aeros]

[quote name='Jake Liebenow' timestamp='1358621439' post='3080091']
Mo9P came from their AA. Fairly certain that it's not that much of a stretch to say that he's their rogue too. Make no mistake, I'm not disputing AI's claim, but it's a false dilemma to assume that Mo9P was solely the property of AI. Hell, I wish more alliances would help out in taking out their trash.

'course it wouldn't hurt for AI to respect Umb policy.
[/quote]

And all Umbrella had to do then was offer their assistance in chastising their ex member. An offer that was never presented. They just went ahead and did, declaring 2 wars before Puppets had declared his next rounds on Ai and then filling the third slot a few minutes later. This after it had been let known Ai was pissed off about it the FIRST time Mo9P's slots were filled. One incident is an accident. 2 incidents is a pattern. For the former we gave the benefit of a doubt, and the latter is as you can see.

As for respecting Umbrella policy, there needs to be reciprocity in any relationship between alliances. By their actions Umbrella showed they had no respect for us. Why is it then expected we should respect them?

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Aeros' timestamp='1358621264' post='3080088']
Mo9P is not "their" rogue. Please show me where Ai became a party to this BIBO thingy. Or are you trying to argue Ai needs to respect Umbrella policy just because?
[/quote]

He is arguing that Umb should be allowed to complete !@#$ over Ai because of BIBO, but Ai should relish the fact that Umb !@#$ over them because of BIBO. That is basically all the logic and rational thought I am getting from Jake.

[quote name='Jake Liebenow' timestamp='1358621439' post='3080091']
Mo9P came from their AA. Fairly certain that it's not that much of a stretch to say that he's their rogue too. Make no mistake, I'm not disputing AI's claim, but it's a false dilemma to assume that Mo9P was solely the property of AI. Hell, I wish more alliances would help out in taking out their trash.

'course it wouldn't hurt for AI to respect Umb policy.
[/quote]

So, if a rogue from GPA hits Umb, then Umb should allow GPA first dibs on all the slots? That is all I am taking from this. That it only matters where the rogue came from, $%&@ whoever the rogue actually hit? That is damn near back asswards from every other rogue situation since CN began. It usually does not matter the origins of the rogue, only who the rogue hits.

Sorry mate, but in this scenario, Umb does not matter at all. Not even a tiny little iota. Their little BIBO policy holds absolutely no sway unless Ai said okay. Even then, Ai would be able to dictate just how many slots Umb could use. Umb would hold no power had they approached this like a normal situation.

Instead, Umb simply wanted to instigate a war and look like a victim. Only half of that worked because the rest of us actually have logic, rational thought, and the ability to see what happened. We don't need to try and twist !@#$ because this is fairly straightforward.

It would not have hurt for Umb to respect Ai in this matter either. Look above for a description of what Umb tried to do. Hint: There was absolutely no respect given to Ai at all. So if Umb disrespects Ai, why the $%&@ should Ai respect Umb? Answer that Jakey.

[topgun0820]

[quote name='Jake Liebenow' timestamp='1358617432' post='3080021']
Because yaaaaaay war, right? All I'm saying is that everyone wanted to fight, but you're kidding yourself if you think this was a valid CB. At least Umb tries to clean up after their rogues, but whatever. Kinda silly, when you think about it. I think this is the first war I've ever seen declared on someone trying to [i]actively help you guys out[/i].
[/quote]
This is just laughable

[Jake Liebenow]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1358621397' post='3080090']
You do realize that slot-filling=slot stealing right? That is no leap. They are one and the same. And everyone knows that. There is no significant point that you have made because you have made absolutely no point at all. Umb filled Puppets slots, ie Umb stole the slots from Ai.

Same thing is same thing. The three defensive slots that Puppets has, were taken by Umb. It is not rocket science mate and you failed real hard in trying to come up with some massive leap I (well by your "logic"; our entire side despite this post being mine...talk about a leap heh?) of logic... Quite sad really.

No, it is not commendable of Umb. They let him slip at least once into PM. That is not cleaning up a rogue problem, that is allowing the rogue to do more damage. Umb should have talked with Ai about coordination against Puppets, if what you are suggesting is how they actually wanted to act. That is what most alliances would have done and what most alliances in the past [i]have[/i] done.

Fairly certain that if an Ai member went rogue on Umb, and Ai acted in the same manner as Umb has. Umb (and Deinos) would be extremely cheesed off and would be demanding or already at war with Ai. If not, then I can't wait to see what the future holds for either Umb and Deinos.




Yes, I am suggesting that Umb broke the universal conventions (laws no, there are no such things in CN, just standards and norms under the guise of convention mate).

And didn't Zoom hit GC as well? If so, then no, GC should have coordinated with y'all but they get at least 1 slot if he rogued them. If Zoom did not rogue GC and they filled all his slots, then yes, you could have warred them. But I honestly doubt that GC pulled what Umb did.
[/quote]

Typically, slot-filling would be considered taking up war slots and then lobbing a couple of CM's every few days in the direction of a nation. In this case, Umb went balls-out against Mo9P. It's not like they were trying to prevent him from being damaged - it sounds to me like you're simply accusing them of messing up a stagger. In this situation, half your nations that hit Umb should be hit by your own forces for the same reason.

Umb was never an alliance who followed conventional logic. I figured that was pretty self-evident, but apparently not.

GC took it upon themselves, with no communication, to take a rogue deemed theirs. They screwed up a stagger. Sounds like a valid CB.

[Auctor]

The "our rules say we can do it" excuse was already used up by LSF last war folks.

[Stealthkill]

[quote name='lazaraus45' timestamp='1358619960' post='3080061']
Dear Umbrella,

You have 48 hours to surrender unconditonally to AI and allies,

if after 48 hours you have not done so, Tom Riddle will be permitted to directly mass PM you're membership with his insights into this war,

You have been warned.
[/quote]
That's just mean. I laughed, but that's mean.

...we'll save it for their terms.

[topgun0820]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1358618937' post='3080038']
Sure, they let the rogue build back up by hitting him with their (better and more powerful) nuclear weapons...ohh wait no that doesn't make any logical sense. Sounds like AI might be overreacting!
[/quote]
I was doing quite fine fighting him and needed no assistance from Umbrella.

[pezstar]

[quote name='KainIIIC' timestamp='1358618745' post='3080036']
If I remember correctly, STA, Frostbite and C&G nearly went to war with Kronos and its allies (TOP, Umbrella and Valhalla I believe) over a nearly identical situation when Kronos filled the slots of a rogue.. Not entirely sure what the resolution was; something with Dictator Dan or something?
[/quote]

You do indeed remember correctly. Heracles went "rogue" on Tyga after we had a relatively tense inter-alliance discussion on their forum. Magically, his slots were already full from other members of Kronos. We asked them to peace out their wars, they said they'd try, but couldn't guarantee anything, because it was up to Heracles to accept the peace. He refused, and then right before the wars were due to expire, they all peaced out at once and refilled the slots. Then, White Majik also declared on Tyga with pre-filled slots. Given that they obviously coordinated with Heracles and White Majik to prevent us from defending Tyga, we were seriously considering a war declaration, and CnG and NpO were on board. Crymson ended up trying to negotiate something with us, and we agreed to settle for 600 tech... 300 for each rogue. We got the first 300 immediately, and then once the wars were all peaced out, Kronos refused to pay the balance, stating that Crymson had agreed to this without discussing it with them, and was speaking out of turn.

We discussed war with our allies again, and we were pretty much in agreement, but ultimately, decided that an alliance war over 300 tech wasn't really something we were comfortable with, and decided to let it go in the interest of "being the bigger man", especially because the wars were eventually peaced. We also assumed that an alliance that petty would pull the same crap again and get what as coming to them. It took 2 years, but here we are. Same situation, slightly bigger fish.

Edited January 19, 2013 by pezstar

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Jake Liebenow' timestamp='1358621893' post='3080099']
Typically, slot-filling would be considered taking up war slots and then lobbing a couple of CM's every few days in the direction of a nation. In this case, Umb went balls-out against Mo9P. It's not like they were trying to prevent him from being damaged - it sounds to me like you're simply accusing them of messing up a stagger. In this situation, half your nations that hit Umb should be hit by your own forces for the same reason.

Umb was never an alliance who followed conventional logic. I figured that was pretty self-evident, but apparently not.

GC took it upon themselves, with no communication, to take a rogue deemed theirs. They screwed up a stagger. Sounds like a valid CB.
[/quote]


That is a different definition given by Admin and the mods. The definition does have some use by Bob itself, but for the most part, slot-filling is the stealing of the slots. The actions that come afterwards, yes tend to be the lobbing of a couple of CMs and that is it, but those do not matter (though they do tend to annoy just as much). The stealing of the slots is what is the major concern. Umb/co let Puppets slip into PM to rebuild his nukes once. Then the moment he gets out, they steal all three slots? That is hard to do without coordination mate. They were talking with Puppets.

Also, from what I gather, Umb is pretty bad at war then? Is that it? Because Umb was making fun of people who messed up staggers, and here you are saying they messed up a rather simple stagger? So, you think Umb sucks at war?

Also, did Zoom hit GC or no?

[topgun0820]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1358619708' post='3080055']
Every member who signs BIBO(which isn't everyone in Umb) and leaves Umbrella is subject to eating 6 nukes. It has always been a policy and as a former member and president I feel I can verify this.

Also, since when does a rogue become the sovereign property of the alliance it is attacking?
[/quote]
When he make an Alliance DoW on AI?

[shahenshah]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1358622160' post='3080104']
You do indeed remember correctly. Heracles went "rogue" on Tyga after we had a relatively tense inter-alliance discussion on their forum. Magically, his slots were already full from other members of Kronos. We asked them to peace out their wars, they said they'd try, but couldn't guarantee anything, because it was up to Heracles to accept the peace. He refused, and then right before the wars were due to expire, they all peaced out at once and refilled the slots. Then, [b]White Majik[/b] also declared on Tyga with pre-filled slots. Given that they obviously coordinated with Heracles and [b]White Majik[/b] to prevent us from defending Tyga, we were seriously considering a war declaration, and CnG and NpO were on board. Crymson ended up trying to negotiate something with us, and we agreed to settle for 600 tech... 300 for each rogue. We got the first 300 immediately, and then once the wars were all peaced out, Kronos refused to pay the balance, stating that Crymson had agreed to this without discussing it with them, and was speaking out of turn.

We discussed war with our allies again, and we were pretty much in agreement, but ultimately, decided that an alliance war over 300 tech wasn't really something we were comfortable with, and decided to let it go in the interest of "being the bigger man", especially because the wars were eventually peaced. We also assumed that an alliance that petty would pull the same crap again and get what as coming to them. It took 2 years, but here we are. Same situation, slightly bigger fish.
[/quote]
Oh its the same govt member, looks experienced in slot filling.

[Baron Flynt]

[size=4]Doomhouse, I'm really happy for you. I'll let you finish, but NPO had the best fall from grace [/size][i]of all time[/i][size=4]![/size]


[size=4][img]http://rashmanly.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/article-0-066b3d93000005dc-172_468x449.jpg?w=450&h=431&h=431[/img][/size]

[size=4]You guys were a really lazy Hegemony, though. I never really mustered up enough passion to care about you being toppled. Where was the [i]motivation[/i]? Hopefully AI or whoever takes the lead next will muster up enough hatred to necessitate a Vox-style resistance.[/size]

Edited January 19, 2013 by Baron Flynt

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1358621801' post='3080097']
So, if a rogue from GPA hits Umb, then Umb should allow GPA first dibs on all the slots? That is all I am taking from this. That it only matters where the rogue came from, $%&@ whoever the rogue actually hit? That is damn near back asswards from every other rogue situation since CN began. It usually does not matter the origins of the rogue, only who the rogue hits.

Sorry mate, but in this scenario, Umb does not matter at all. Not even a tiny little iota. Their little BIBO policy holds absolutely no sway unless Ai said okay. Even then, Ai would be able to dictate just how many slots Umb could use. Umb would hold no power had they approached this like a normal situation.

Instead, Umb simply wanted to instigate a war and look like a victim. Only half of that worked because the rest of us actually have logic, rational thought, and the ability to see what happened. We don't need to try and twist !@#$ because this is fairly straightforward.

It would not have hurt for Umb to respect Ai in this matter either. Look above for a description of what Umb tried to do. Hint: There was absolutely no respect given to Ai at all. So if Umb disrespects Ai, why the $%&@ should Ai respect Umb? Answer that Jakey.
[/quote]
This is the result of over 3 years' worth of these DH alliances saying "this is our policy" as a justification to do anything, and the world aquiescing. First, many of the AAs which will soon be demolishing the Doom House toed the "policy" party line as unquestioning allies, later they did it at the end of a gun rather than deal with it. Umbrella, GOONS, etc honestly believe that their charters, laws, and policies dictate how non-member nations and other alliances act or react or interact with them, because for 3 years the world has let them get away with it.

"That time is over for Umbrella" and for the rest of them, too.

Sovereignty extends only as far as their borders, policy only extends to the furthest extent of either their military power or our aquiescence. Like the special snowflake getting his first C at college, Umbrella and their allies are--I believe--honestly shocked; reality is clashing with the 3-year dreamland they've been raised in. It is their honest political belief that they can write any policy they want and the rest of the world must abide by it. The dream is over.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Schattenmann