Triyun Posted October 7, 2012 Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 I have a proposal, as the largest holder of protectorates as an individual nation, I would like to make a proposal to all nations. That is that we give up protectorates entirely. Outlaw them. If you want to hold territory make it a colony, and if others oppose you on that they should make a colony. Then people can make nations wherever they want, if people think people are getting too big they can fight wars to prevent colony taking etc. The end result is hopefully that land becomes more precious, and everyone tries there best to actually defend and enforces their claims, as well as hopefully a few people making honest to goodness claims at old style colonial Empires (note I don't need to ) Anyways thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted October 7, 2012 Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 We might as well make Area of Influence be worth something again. Don't you agree? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted October 7, 2012 Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 Solid plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Tintagyl Posted October 7, 2012 Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 My hopes are that, yes, it will give people a reason to expand again. But of course, time and motivation will show that. Though I do like the idea people don't have to ask for permission for land and wait for the owner of a protectorate to allow them to RP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triyun Posted October 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 [quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1349638120' post='3038275'] We might as well make Area of Influence be worth something again. Don't you agree? [/quote] They are of course. They are the maximum area you can make with an initial claim. Please stay on topic about protectorates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted October 7, 2012 Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 Initial claim on EMPTY land. There is no empty land, thus such a rule is basically worth nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triyun Posted October 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 Oh fair, yeah I guess thats a fair point, so with no more protectorates then, would this proposal not do what you are proposing, and impose that initial claim be capped at SoI, then if someone wants more they have to RP, problem solved? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted October 7, 2012 Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 I'm not really sure what your proposal is. What's to stop people from converting the current protectorates into colonies, thus just changing the name of the protectorate into colony? I think more explanations of the current proposal is needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Executive Minister Posted October 7, 2012 Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 What stops people from making those colonies now? Protectorates are not OOC enforced... they are ICly enforced by the owner's willingness to defend them. Then again, no protectorates means people cannot use them to project their SDIs, so there's always that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triyun Posted October 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 [quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1349639223' post='3038288'] I'm not really sure what your proposal is. What's to stop people from converting the current protectorates into colonies, thus just changing the name of the protectorate into colony? I think more explanations of the current proposal is needed. [/quote] If people get too big, others should step in. That would be my idea. [quote name='Executive Minister' timestamp='1349639526' post='3038290'] What stops people from making those colonies now? Protectorates are not OOC enforced... they are ICly enforced by the owner's willingness to defend them. Then again, no protectorates means people cannot use them to project their SDIs, so there's always that. [/quote] IC action, and no protectorates actually aren't purely IC, because if you look at it, people can't role in there, the protectorate holder gets to RP the IC population, have SDI coverage, construct defenses, there are a lot of home field advantages they have. Not to mention the general conception that protectorates somehow confer near national status amongst people even as they join. What I am proposing is a near return to the old scramble for land threads. In fact, in South America for example, I think it'd be awesome if we saw one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted October 7, 2012 Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 I would like to challenge the assumption that just because there is IC, the notion that a majority of the people in the new territories would automatically welcome the new rulers. That's basically what CNRP has been running on, where "IC" amounts to conquering land and reaping all the benefits without problems unless one wants to RP the problems. I would think that's where AoI might come into play: It shows the extent to which people are willing to accept the new rulers, with those outside the AoI needing troops to keep them loyal. Wouldn't that ultimately mean overextension would not happen in the first place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangeline Anovilis Posted October 7, 2012 Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 How would the conversion of systems be? All protectorates become white space, or all protectorates become proper nation territory, with the nation then deciding what to give up? Also what is the difference, really? Those who can enforce protectorates can also enforce colonies. There is really no change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triyun Posted October 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 [quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1349640076' post='3038294'] I would like to challenge the assumption that just because there is IC, the notion that a majority of the people in the new territories would automatically welcome the new rulers. That's basically what CNRP has been running on, where "IC" amounts to conquering land and reaping all the benefits without problems unless one wants to RP the problems. I would think that's where AoI might come into play: It shows the extent to which people are willing to accept the new rulers, with those outside the AoI needing troops to keep them loyal. Wouldn't that ultimately mean overextension would not happen in the first place? [/quote] I would challenge the notion that people are too big atm though. There is a !@#$ ton of white space, potentially, but not exclusively for new players. If there wasn't I'd agree with you. I'd much have a world where people are pressing up against each other interacting with one another. Additionally there is the problem that a good chunk of us have more than CN's program is designed to support on the map, IG. [quote name='Evangeline Anovilis' timestamp='1349640174' post='3038295'] How would the conversion of systems be? All protectorates become white space, or all protectorates become proper nation territory, with the nation then deciding what to give up? Also what is the difference, really? Those who can enforce protectorates can also enforce colonies. There is really no change. [/quote] Colonies are marked as yours on the map, by in large people resent large areas, therefore you have to pay an infamy cost for a big territory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted October 7, 2012 Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 [quote]I would challenge the notion that people are too big atm though.[/quote] I'm not sure there is that much of a notion. [quote]There is a !@#$ ton of white space, potentially, but not exclusively for new players.[/quote] I generally agree with this assessment. [quote]Additionally there is the problem that a good chunk of us have more than CN's program is designed to support on the map, IG. [/quote] Come again? Don't really get what this is supposed to mean. [quote]Colonies are marked as yours on the map, by in large people resent large areas, therefore you have to pay an infamy cost for a big territory[/quote] How is that any different from the status quo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangeline Anovilis Posted October 7, 2012 Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 People don't resent overseas protectorates? as I said, as it is now, the one who can just march into foreign territory and create a protectorate, can as easily create a colony there. Infamy is subjective here. It's not some grand strategy computer game, where the aI acts on levels of infamy, but it is a group of people, acting on what they perceive as just, unjust, enforcable and unenforcable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaiserMelech Mikhail Posted October 7, 2012 Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 I have a feeling that this is going to turn out much less like the colonial wars of the 18th century, and much more like the Berlin Conference, where people draw a map and everyone just agrees to it and that's the end of it. This would be a great idea if the colonial powers hated each other like France/England/Spain, but since the major protectorate holders (Triyun, Cent, IA, Voodoo, etc) are all bestest buddies, you probably won't get the desired effects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triyun Posted October 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1349640922' post='3038304'] Come again? Don't really get what this is supposed to mean. [/quote] CN's map tool displays a max of 3000 miles even if you own more than that. For example, mine is 6800, over twice the display size. [quote][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]People don't resent overseas protectorates? as I said, as it is now, the one who can just march into foreign territory and create a protectorate, can as easily create a colony there. Infamy is subjective here. It's not some grand strategy computer game, where the aI acts on levels of infamy, but it is a group of people, acting on what they perceive as just, unjust, enforcable and unenforcable.[/quote][/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]I would say not to the extent no. Like when JED and Ty started to annex things is when people became really bothered. Same with Mael's DE, Shadow was also the same way. I'm sure you know one or two people who dislike Tianxia too [/font][/color] Edited October 7, 2012 by Triyun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted October 7, 2012 Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 I've done a bit to testing with Centurius after a short discussion on IRC. The following maps center the SoI on Athens, and green is for purchased SoI, red for total SoI: In miles [img]http://i.imgur.com/8L4KF.png[/img] In kilometers [img]http://i.imgur.com/qI5Wf.png[/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangeline Anovilis Posted October 7, 2012 Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 [quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1349642087' post='3038312'] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]I would say not to the extent no. Like when JED and Ty started to annex things is when people became really bothered. Same with Mael's DE, Shadow was also the same way. I'm sure you know one or two people who dislike Tianxia too [/font][/color] [/quote] People dislike Empires, but at the end of the day, they don't care whether it was a protectorate or proper territory. They rather care that the influence is too great and whether or not the ressources are sufficient to curb the enemy's power. and this rule change would not change much in that regard, it neither changes the balance of power, not the control one has. Because for all purposes, the protectorate is a territory the owner has control who RPs in it, the owner can station troops in it, the owner could exploit the ressources and it is SDI covered. What makes the difference is that it is white and not RPed as part of the nation proper, but OOCly, it is the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horo the Wise Wolf Posted October 7, 2012 Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 This could work. The main problem is that people would take land near others for the sake of antagonising them, because suddenly the process of acquiring it is so much easier. The massive onrush of nations all claiming more land at once, were this to pass, would be a sight to behold. Some kind of cap on the land a nation could have would have to be implemented, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted October 7, 2012 Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 You're treating this as a call for a rulechange, it's a call for a cultural change. The rules already allow it, he's just calling for people to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted October 7, 2012 Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 That's what the SoI idea is about: By limiting the area you can annex without cost to your stats, we can make having an empire have costs related to it, as any actual empire would be facing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triyun Posted October 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 (edited) I'm fine with adding costs Kankou, if you're fine with adding benefits too. You want to add costs associated with maintaining an Empire, ok, lets add the benefits associated with size such as superior access to raw materials, man power, etc also associated. OR lets do my simpler proposal [quote name='Horo the Wise Wolf' timestamp='1349644231' post='3038332'] This could work. The main problem is that people would take land near others for the sake of antagonising them, because suddenly the process of acquiring it is so much easier. The massive onrush of nations all claiming more land at once, were this to pass, would be a sight to behold. Some kind of cap on the land a nation could have would have to be implemented, though. [/quote] This is kinda my point, it would be a site to behold. I'm looking forward to the interactions it creates by enabling rather than limiting players ability to get land, my hope is for a seven years war of sorts. Edited October 7, 2012 by Triyun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangeline Anovilis Posted October 7, 2012 Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 How about superior geographic positioning? Base control? Land gives advantages already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Andres Posted October 7, 2012 Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 Would a new player still need to contact the current land owner for space? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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