Sparta signs NpO

[Enamel32]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1348848983' post='3035198']
You are being intentionally dismissive of facts. Umbrella as an alliance is a democracy, in a democracy, the leader is expected to serve the will of the members, not to force the members to serve the will of the leader. Who are you to judge whether or not he capitalized on his power?
[/quote]
Democracy or not, A leader is elected because he has reason and foresight to make, or influence the decisions necessary. Members are not all supremely informed, which is why they're not given complete power. If they are given complete power, that makes it all the more important the alliance leader has strong influence on the alliance vision. That philosophy is just as true on bob, as it is in higher worlds. If you want to argue otherwise, fine go ahead, but you look silly. JA already stated straight up he wasn't prepared for the job, and things didn't go exactly the way he wanted. Irrespective of sparta's position in the matter, that was my case and point from the beginning straight from the man himself. The fact that Sparta likely would have received benefit from Umb handling [i]any situation[/i] differently in the last year and a half is beside the point. I really don't see what you're trying to "prove" to me anymore. I ended my arguments a few posts ago, yet you continue to quote me.

[Lord Valleo]

While some of the arguments here are almost entertaining...the conversation could continue infinitely without reaching a consensus of what is "true and right". It is a shame that almost every declaration and announcement must be littered with such.

That being said, I would like to return to the reason for this thread, which is the announcement of this treaty.

Congrats to both parties for finding some common ground and having the fortitude to enter into a treaty which will hopefully serve both parties equally well and bring them new success on Planet Bob.

All alliances have their skeletons and missteps and all are judged and persecuted endlessly. However all seek to move on, start anew and improve and I am sure both the NpO and Sparta are trying to do just this with the announced treaty.

Good luck to both Sparta and NpO and remember Haters are gonna Hate

o/ NpO
o/ Sparta

[King Louis the II]

[quote name='Lord Valleo' timestamp='1348881660' post='3035476']
While some of the arguments here are almost entertaining...the conversation could continue infinitely without reaching a consensus of what is "true and right". It is a shame that almost every declaration and announcement must be littered with such.

That being said, I would like to return to the reason for this thread, which is the announcement of this treaty.

Congrats to both parties for finding some common ground and having the fortitude to enter into a treaty which will hopefully serve both parties equally well and bring them new success on Planet Bob.

All alliances have their skeletons and missteps and all are judged and persecuted endlessly. However all seek to move on, start anew and improve and I am sure both the NpO and Sparta are trying to do just this with the announced treaty.

Good luck to both Sparta and NpO and remember Haters are gonna Hate

o/ NpO
o/ Sparta
[/quote]

One of the most balanced and smartest posts that I have seen this year...(not being sarcastic)

Planet Bob what is happening with you?

[Charles Stuart]

"True and right" are fictional notions of an insane world. There exists only chaos. Embrace it and you shall be liberated.

[Thalayk]

[quote name='Lord Valleo' timestamp='1348881660' post='3035476']
While some of the arguments here are almost entertaining...the conversation could continue infinitely without reaching a consensus of what is "true and right". It is a shame that almost every declaration and announcement must be littered with such.

That being said, I would like to return to the reason for this thread, which is the announcement of this treaty.

Congrats to both parties for finding some common ground and having the fortitude to enter into a treaty which will hopefully serve both parties equally well and bring them new success on Planet Bob.

All alliances have their skeletons and missteps and all are judged and persecuted endlessly. However all seek to move on, start anew and improve and I am sure both the NpO and Sparta are trying to do just this with the announced treaty.

Good luck to both Sparta and NpO and remember Haters are gonna Hate

o/ NpO
o/ Sparta
[/quote]

I'm not alone
Seriously though, I'm getting tired of every thread turning into a flame fest, usually involving the same people. I say we create a new thread for just such a purpose and stick them in it, no posting elsewhere until they duke it out to a finality.

[mmansfield68]

This is neither here nor there, and I wish all parties involved here the best, with very certain exceptions.

Having said that, democracy does not work in CN, never has. I can show you where the bodies are buried...

Any alliance worth her salt knows this - Autocracy, as unattractive as the word sounds - is the only way to run an alliance here. Democracy is when three wolves and one lamb decide what's for dinner.

[Rokula]

[quote name='mmansfield68' timestamp='1348900905' post='3035578']
This is neither here nor there, and I wish all parties involved here the best, with very certain exceptions.

Having said that, democracy does not work in CN, never has. I can show you where the bodies are buried...

Any alliance worth her salt knows this - Autocracy, as unattractive as the word sounds - is the only way to run an alliance here. Democracy is when three wolves and one lamb decide what's for dinner.
[/quote]

I do not quite follow your logic, there are many successful democracies in CN, and there are quite a lot of dead and buried autocracies. Government type of an Alliance in CN has no direct bearing if it fails or prospers, that has always been the domain of members and/or leadership of said alliances.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Rokula

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='Rokula' timestamp='1348912125' post='3035588']
I do not quite follow your logic, there are many successful democracies in CN, and there are quite a lot of dead and buried autocracies. Government type of an Alliance in CN has no direct bearing if it fails or prospers, that has always been the domain of members and/or leadership of said alliances.
[/quote]

This man hit the nail on the head.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='Enamel32' timestamp='1348810634' post='3035094']
I realize you're trying to protect the hive. Good for you. I can appreciate that, but are you not reading what he just said in the last several posts?


He just said, he would have preferred not to have DH become Umb's sole FA path, but he didn't say a word and let the membership of umb do whatever they wanted.

That's got nothing to do with Sparta. It shows a clear inability to project his own vision to guide the alliance, which is exactly what a leader is supposed to do. Umb was highly respected across the board primarily because of Roq's legacy. Had JA been more assertive and not lost sight of the amount of power Umb really had, perhaps things would be different today. Perhaps, they wouldn't look like the lapdog of a multitude of alliances. Does that mean things would have been different for Sparta? I guess, potentially. Without doubt, I wish things played out differently, just as much if not more, than you wish the events didn't play out differently.
[/quote]

There was no place for me to be more assertive, my alliance was in shock after losing its long time leader and they looked to me to hold things together and act in their interests, not mine. I didn't want to goto bat for DH but I also didn't want to goto bat for SF/XX either (surprise surprise I thought you were both being dickheads)So I hedged my bets and picked the side that:
a)the majority of my allies were on and b) the one that the majority of my alliance wanted to be on.

You would've done the same in my position and if you didn't then you would've likely been removed so that someone else could've (directly contradicting what the majority of your alliance ask of you in a democracy is a sure fire way to get your ass fired)

Edited September 29, 2012 by Johnny Apocalypse

[berbers]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1348928329' post='3035620']
There was no place for me to be more assertive, my alliance was in shock after losing its long time leader and they looked to me to hold things together and act in their interests, not mine. I didn't want to goto bat for DH but I also didn't want to goto bat for SF/XX either (surprise surprise I thought you were both being dickheads)So I hedged my bets and picked the side that:
a)the majority of my allies were on and b) the one that the majority of my alliance wanted to be on.

You would've done the same in my position and if you didn't then you would've likely been removed so that someone else could've (directly contradicting what the majority of your alliance ask of you in a democracy is a sure fire way to get your ass fired)
[/quote]

In a democracy, weak leaders rule by opinion polls, strong leaders make opinions.

[Thalayk]

[quote name='berbers' timestamp='1348932883' post='3035639']
In a democracy, weak leaders rule by opinion polls, strong leaders make opinions.
[/quote]

Brilliant.

[New Frontier]

[quote name='berbers' timestamp='1348932883' post='3035639']
In a democracy, weak leaders rule by opinion polls, strong leaders make opinions.
[/quote]
And if he'd fought for the other side, you'd all accuse him of jumping ship/ignoring the majority of his treaties.

round and round and round it goes

[berbers]

[quote name='New Frontier' timestamp='1348933335' post='3035643']
And if he'd fought for the other side, you'd all accuse him of jumping ship/ignoring the majority of his treaties.

round and round and round it goes
[/quote]

Hey you have got me all wrong, Umb did what it thought best I am sure, just like we all do. I was commenting more on JA talking about following the majority opinion, I disagree with the premise democratic leaders are slaves to the masses.

[Thalayk]

[quote name='berbers' timestamp='1348933556' post='3035644']
Hey you have got me all wrong, Umb did what it thought best I am sure, just like we all do. I was commenting more on JA talking about following the majority opinion, I disagree with the premise democratic leaders are slaves to the masses.
[/quote]

The OWF seems to be the powder keg of CN at the moment. Everything is used as fodder for verbal onslaught. Just waiting for that spark.

[New Frontier]

[quote name='berbers' timestamp='1348933556' post='3035644']
Hey you have got me all wrong, Umb did what it thought best I am sure, just like we all do. I was commenting more on JA talking about following the majority opinion, I disagree with the premise democratic leaders are slaves to the masses.
[/quote]
And you're twisting his words. According to JA, public opinion happened to coincide with the majority of his treaties and a situation where he personally saw neither side as having any sort of "higher ground".

Additionally, to suggest that democratic leadership is somehow not about representing the people seems pretty silly to me. Does a real leader form opinion? Of course. But that doesn't happen at the expense of giving his people any sort of say. It's a natural give and take.

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='New Frontier' timestamp='1348934063' post='3035647']
And you're twisting his words. According to JA, public opinion happened to coincide with the majority of his treaties and a situation where he personally saw neither side as having any sort of "higher ground".

Additionally, to suggest that democratic leadership is somehow not about representing the people seems pretty silly to me. Does a real leader form opinion? Of course. But that doesn't happen at the expense of giving his people any sort of say. It's a natural give and take.
[/quote]


What higher ground? Come off it.

Last time I checked MHA and Sparta weren't actively plotting with JA every night on how to take down its direct allies.

A group of people needed Umbrella to fight with them or at least not against them in order to destroy XX, so they made every attempt to make it seem like Umbrella would be a big pile of dicks if it didn't do the heavy lifting against some of their direct allies. Mind you -- this was for their own purposes, with very small if any benefit to Umbrella and certainly at a loss long term. They continued pressing this until it seemed like a compromise to not directly hit their allies and to just shut them up. There was nothing moral about it.

These same people to this day !@#$%* at Umbrella for not doing more, and every time I see it I crack up because it's exactly what I told them would happen.

As for Umbrella's Gov -- They're sovereign so it really isn't up to any of us [i]what[/i] they do. A president isn't elected to do what the people want and ask them how to do his/her job, they're elected to influence and lead to do what the alliance needs. It's an important distinction to make because doing the latter is often unpopular -- but doing the former is ...just bad government/policy.

[Lusitan]

[quote name='bkphysics' timestamp='1348847911' post='3035185']
Am I the only one who finds irony in a member of Umbrella labeling another alliance a lapdog?
[/quote]

You seem illiterate. I said that, after seeing what Sparta is capable of pulling off, being a lapdog seems more appealing than being a Sparta ally. I mentioned no other alliance.

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1348935381' post='3035653']
As for Umbrella's Gov -- They're sovereign so it really isn't up to any of us [i]what[/i] they do. A president isn't elected to do what the people want and ask them how to do his/her job, they're elected to influence and lead to do what the alliance needs. It's an important distinction to make because doing the latter is often unpopular -- but doing the former is ...just bad government/policy.
[/quote]

Thank you for your insight on what Umbrella's government should do. I can imagine your experience and knowledge on leadership affairs must have helped you so much during the short period of time people allowed you to lead an alliance.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Lusitan

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1348937126' post='3035662']
Thank you for your insight on what Umbrella's government should do. I can imagine your experience and knowledge on leadership affairs must have helped you so much during the short period of time people allowed you to lead an alliance.
[/quote]

You're an idiot if you disagree with what you quoted.

As for the backhanded snipe -


My only mistake was believing too much in people, and at the end of the day -- their actions were/are out of my hands.
I have no regrets, and history has been kind to me. Others, not so much...

Edited September 29, 2012 by IYIyTh

[Lusitan]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1348938106' post='3035668']
[b]My only mistake[/b] was believing too much in people, and at the end of the day -- their actions were/are out of my hands.
I have no regrets, and history has been kind to me. Others, not so much...
[/quote]

And there we go.

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1348940402' post='3035680']
And there we go.
[/quote]


I already apologized for that one time I privately stated I believed Umbrella was going to betray Sparta and MHA.
I really don't have much more to say about it.

Whenever you're ready to admit your mistakes you can come talk to me. Until then cut the holier-than-thou routine.

What ended up happening, anyways?

Edited September 29, 2012 by IYIyTh

[Enamel32]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1348928329' post='3035620']
You would've done the same in my position
[/quote]
lolol

By stating that I would have done the same thing as you is the same as suggesting I'd be some kind of weak ball-less leader. I just got done saying I'd take serious offense to that. No! I probably [i]would not[/i] have done the same thing as you. I'm not implying I'm perfect or that I would have made all the right choices, but to suggest I'd do the same thing as you is naive. Part of being a leader is going against the grain for what you believe in, even if the effort appears futile.-A staunch differentiation from your self prescribed leadership philosophy.

I'll quit hassling you for now, JA. We should continue this in the future, for it's been lulzworthy. Until another day, I'm off. [color="#FF0000"][b]*Enamel32[/b][/color] picks up his spear and shield, looks to the sky, and flies away.

[Mogar]

[quote name='Thalayk' timestamp='1348934059' post='3035646']
The OWF seems to be the powder keg of CN at the moment. Everything is used as fodder for verbal onslaught. Just waiting for that spark.
[/quote]
the last war was a mistake, all the aggressors did was ensure the next war came far sooner than it would have had the normal cycle occurred.

[New Frontier]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1348935381' post='3035653']
What higher ground? Come off it.

Last time I checked MHA and Sparta weren't actively plotting with JA every night on how to take down its direct allies.

A group of people needed Umbrella to fight with them or at least not against them in order to destroy XX, so they made every attempt to make it seem like Umbrella would be a big pile of dicks if it didn't do the heavy lifting against some of their direct allies. Mind you -- this was for their own purposes, with very small if any benefit to Umbrella and certainly at a loss long term. They continued pressing this until it seemed like a compromise to not directly hit their allies and to just shut them up. There was nothing moral about it.

These same people to this day !@#$%* at Umbrella for not doing more, and every time I see it I crack up because it's exactly what I told them would happen.

As for Umbrella's Gov -- They're sovereign so it really isn't up to any of us [i]what[/i] they do. A president isn't elected to do what the people want and ask them how to do his/her job, they're elected to influence and lead to do what the alliance needs. It's an important distinction to make because doing the latter is often unpopular -- but doing the former is ...just bad government/policy.
[/quote]
"Neither side had a moral high ground"

"WHAT?? You think MK had moral high ground?????"

reading can be tough though, keep trying

[Ardus]

[quote name='Enamel32' timestamp='1348942713' post='3035689']
lolol

By stating that I would have done the same thing as you is the same as suggesting I'd be some kind of weak ball-less leader.
[/quote]
Nobody is suggesting you'd be "some kind of weak ball-less leader." That would imply anybody worth his or her salt believes you could be a leader of any kind at all. Few things could be further from the truth.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1348949494' post='3035721']
Nobody is suggesting you'd be "some kind of weak ball-less leader." That would imply anybody worth his or her salt believes you could be a leader of any kind at all. Few things could be further from the truth.
[/quote]

I really had planned this exact same reply. Ardus beat me to it by quite a while, which is OK, if I had beaten him to it, id have been punished by MK.