RE: MK Leaks

[Melancholy Culkin]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1341245678' post='3001807']
The war wasn't as long or crippling as later fronts, though it was very fierce and we fought all out (most MKers fighting 6 vs. 1) in a time when average warchests were a lot smaller.

However I disagree on the terms. The reps were large considering the size of our alliance, and the only alliance we ever gave harsher terms to was TOP/IRON.
[/quote]

Athens got some pretty hefty reps as well. Something like 5/6ths of the tech we had in our alliance at the time.

[Mogar]

[quote name='Melancholy Culkin' timestamp='1341250124' post='3001837']
Athens got some pretty hefty reps as well. Something like 5/6ths of the tech we had in our alliance at the time.
[/quote]
didnt have to be sent from any particular nations IIRC, and you had probably triple the tech at the start of the war.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Mogar

[Melancholy Culkin]

[quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1341250527' post='3001839']
didnt have to be sent from any particular nations IIRC, and you had probably triple the tech at the start of the war.
[/quote]

I just checked, 14k tech from an alliance with 16k tech is significant no matter how much they had before the war.

[Stonewall Jaxon]

[quote name='Melancholy Culkin' timestamp='1341251605' post='3001846']
I just checked, 14k tech from an alliance with 16k tech is significant no matter how much they had before the war.
[/quote]

It didn't have to be paid by tech-laden nations, so 14k tech = 420 million. Not horrible, I suppose, but still much more punitive than I like to see for reparations from an alliance that entered the war defensively (which was the case if I recall).

Edited July 2, 2012 by Stonewall Jaxon

[Vol Navy]

The very short wars was what I'm talking about. 80 or 90 days in a row eating nukes is far more devastating than Athens/MK terms from WoTC. Even if the wonder clock got knocked off a little. Tack on the huge reps at the end of the long long wars they were far more harsh. Especially so given the double rolling format DH uses.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1341255767' post='3001873']
The very short wars was what I'm talking about. 80 or 90 days in a row eating nukes is far more devastating than Athens/MK terms from WoTC. Even if the wonder clock got knocked off a little. Tack on the huge reps at the end of the long long wars they were far more harsh. Especially so given the double rolling format DH uses.
[/quote]
The only war this really applies to is bipolar. Also worth noting that they didn't get rolled again.

In Karma, NPO terms were not MK's doing (and were largely a result of NPO hiding in peace mode) and for TPF we primarily negotiated the other parties down after TPF chose to fight on as long as they did. NPO/DH only lasted as long as it did because NPO hid so many upper tier nations in peace mode.

[berbers]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1341264013' post='3001941']
NPO/DH only lasted as long as it did because NPO hid so many upper tier nations in peace mode.
[/quote]

False logic, the reason NPO/DH lasted so long was because DH didn't like that NPO nations were in PM and required them coming out as a condition for peace.

You guys set that condition for peace, ergo, you dragged the war out. I am sure NPO would have accepted peace without bringing them out.

[Starfox101]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1340813406' post='2998405']
[color="#0000FF"]Well, it worked. I am sure their clever twisting of Banksy's jest will have won many people over to their side. It is only a matter of time before they have Alterego and other revered voices echoing their catchy lines on how terrible we are.[/color]
[/quote]
Came to this thread not expecting much. I was lucky to get this gem of RV making fun of someone else. You're pretty much the definition of what people try to not be.

I was also very pleased to see 80 sarcastic comments from MK's side, which when responded to, they responded with the ol' "haha I was jk jokes on u!"

Great thread.

[Max Power]

[quote name='berbers' timestamp='1341270596' post='3001992']
False logic, the reason NPO/DH lasted so long was because DH didn't like that NPO nations were in PM and required them coming out as a condition for peace.

You guys set that condition for peace, ergo, you dragged the war out. I am sure NPO would have accepted peace without bringing them out.
[/quote]
I feel like you two basically said the same thing here.

[berbers]

[quote name='Max Power' timestamp='1341276006' post='3002034']
I feel like you two basically said the same thing here.
[/quote]

He was putting the blame on NPO for the length of that war, when in fact the reasoning he gave was a DH decision.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='berbers' timestamp='1341270596' post='3001992']
False logic, the reason NPO/DH lasted so long was because DH didn't like that NPO nations were in PM and required them coming out as a condition for peace.

You guys set that condition for peace, ergo, you dragged the war out. I am sure NPO would have accepted peace without bringing them out.
[/quote]
It's certainly not "dragging out the fight" for someone when they haven't been fighting in the first place.

[berbers]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1341279462' post='3002059']
It's certainly not "dragging out the fight" for someone when they haven't been fighting in the first place.
[/quote]

Oh man, you are so right. I correctly recall now that NPO took no damage prior to their top tier coming out of war for a round. Thanks for reminding me oh wise one.

[Banksy]

okay i'm sick of writing my essay so here comes some time wasting

[quote name='Stonewall Jaxon' timestamp='1341252311' post='3001853']
It didn't have to be paid by tech-laden nations, so 14k tech = 420 million. Not horrible, I suppose, but still much more punitive than I like to see for reparations from an alliance that entered the war defensively (which was the case if I recall).
[/quote]
[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1341255767' post='3001873']
The very short wars was what I'm talking about. 80 or 90 days in a row eating nukes is far more devastating than Athens/MK terms from WoTC. Even if the wonder clock got knocked off a little. Tack on the huge reps at the end of the long long wars they were far more harsh. Especially so given the double rolling format DH uses.
[/quote]
you cannot compare the scale of the wars from 4 years ago to the ones of today. in terms of total tech, total wonders (hello sdi and wrc) and warchest sizes the two eras were completely different.

at the time, the reps from WoTC were crippling, especially on a small alliance like mk/athens (as fyfe pointed out earlier, athens paid back 14/16ths of its tech which is like NATO being asked to pay back 300k today - completely impossible considering the tech inflation we have). the amount of tech MK had to pay back in the timeframe (4 months) would be a steep term today. Aside from TOP (even accounting for the fact they had a portion of their reps removed which would have taken off maybe 3-4 rounds) there hasn't really been a comparative set of reps paid since then in such a constrained time-frame.

3 months of nuclear warfare has happened on the following fronts since WoTC:
2009: NPO (v everyone), TPF (v everyone), IRON (v Fark, GRE) (sort of)
2010: TOP/IRON (v MK, NpO, ODN (largely))
2011: NPO (v MK), NpO (v VE) (and in the next war) Fark (v NG et al)
2012: ???

All of these alliances were big.

In comparison, sizable reps since that time:
2009: NPO (12 months, half cash, low capacity)
2010: TOP (6 months, allowed indirect reps via IRON nations), IRON (6 months iirc - not hugely damaging but remember they had to effectively pay off TOP's too)
2011: None of note
2012: ???

tl;dr 90 days of eating nukes today is harsh, but becoming standard practice for big fronts since TOP/C&G. WoTC reps were far beyond the norm.

[Cotillion]

[quote name='Starfox101' timestamp='1341275658' post='3002030']
Came to this thread not expecting much. I was lucky to get this gem of RV making fun of someone else. You're pretty much the definition of what people try to not be.

I was also very pleased to see 80 sarcastic comments from MK's side, which when responded to, they responded with the ol' "haha I was jk jokes on u!"

Great thread.
[/quote]
glad you get my epic sarcasm and witty retorts, was worried i've have to lower the standards of my posting

[flak attack]

[quote name='berbers' timestamp='1341205434' post='3001580']
Flak, I seen you had a few wars going, did you somewhat satisfy your war lust
[/quote]
I am always wanting more.

[quote name='Goose' timestamp='1341205785' post='3001586']
I most likely left him dissatisfied and wanting more.
[/quote]
You and Lenny are probably the two most competent opponents I've had since the TOP war. The tech/infra differences meant you didn't really have a shot in the first place, but most people I've fought since then have just sat down and let me beat them senseless. The others did all sorts of weird stuff. I've already picked up about 1.3m casualties this round. For comparison, I only picked up about 1m between the TOP war and this. That was over 2 global wars, a handful of raids and fighting a couple of rogues.

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1341282761' post='3002071']
tl;dr 90 days of eating nukes today is harsh, but becoming standard practice for big fronts since TOP/C&G. WoTC reps were far beyond the norm.
[/quote]
Unless you were lucky enough to be in GPA.

[Archon]

Truth be told, I just wanted to waste some time. But this is just depressing. Back in 06-07 we had to actually try and make points. You people are just pathetic. It's nothing but opinion-as-fact or trying desperately to sell !@#$%^&* as reality. Dear god. How I long for Josef Thorne, Philosopher, or even !@#$@#$ Z'ha'dum at this point.

[Stonewall Jaxon]

[quote name='Archon' timestamp='1341286665' post='3002117']
Truth be told, I just wanted to waste some time. But this is just depressing. Back in 06-07 we had to actually try and make points. You people are just pathetic. It's nothing but opinion-as-fact or trying desperately to sell !@#$%^&* as reality. Dear god. How I long for Josef Thorne, Philosopher, or even !@#$@#$ Z'ha'dum at this point.
[/quote]

That's a failure of your tenure as top dogs, Archon. When NPO's side sent out posters, they conducted themselves with a sense of self-respect, and long-winded discussions were as meaningful as they were enjoyable. I had a blast being a provocative Vox/FAN poster and arguing everything from CBs to Continuum/Initiative dealings of old. With your lulz brigade, all the opposition gets back from our posts (typically) is a ludicrous one-liner, which when challenged is met with "I guess my sarcasm just went over your head." Have you seen some of the people posting on behalf of DoomHouse (see: Neo Uruk)? I fully agree with you that discussions here have devolved into practically nothing, but I maintain that your way of doing things has been the root cause of it, so I have no idea why you look down your nose at me. Your posting here has been probably the only time I've been seriously engaged by an MK member, and though you've been very petty in your arguments, resorting to lazily crafted insults, I've at least appreciated the change of pace from your alliance's normal MO. Hell, as a CoJ member I encouraged OsRavan to post more because I at least enjoy the sport of discussion. However, at the end of the day all you do is break off, and instead of respectably retiring from the conversation, you can't help yourself from making an empty, unjustifiable condescending remark. I can see where your subjects get their thickness from.

[Vanilla Napalm]

[quote name='Stonewall Jaxon' timestamp='1341291979' post='3002305']
That's a failure of your tenure as top dogs, Archon. When NPO's side sent out posters, they conducted themselves with a sense of self-respect, and long-winded discussions were as meaningful as they were enjoyable. I had a blast being a provocative Vox/FAN poster and arguing everything from CBs to Continuum/Initiative dealings of old. With your lulz brigade, all the opposition gets back from our posts (typically) is a ludicrous one-liner, which when challenged is met with "I guess my sarcasm just went over your head." Have you seen some of the people posting on behalf of DoomHouse (see: Neo Uruk)? I fully agree with you that discussions here have devolved into practically nothing, but I maintain that your way of doing things has been the root cause of it, so I have no idea why you look down your nose at me. Your posting here has been probably the only time I've been seriously engaged by an MK member, and though you've been very petty in your arguments, resorting to lazily crafted insults, I've at least appreciated the change of pace from your alliance's normal MO. Hell, as a CoJ member I encouraged OsRavan to post more because I at least enjoy the sport of discussion. However, at the end of the day all you do is break off, and instead of respectably retiring from the conversation, you can't help yourself from making an empty, unjustifiable condescending remark. I can see where your subjects get their thickness from.
[/quote]

Well, There we have it. Not only have MK redefined the game 08-onwards, they have effectively redefined the human capacity to communicate. People used to say "NPO won the game", but god damn if they were just a drop in the pond compared to the current eternal hegemony.
Congrats MK, you are not only worse than NPO but you are literally Hitler.

[Stonewall Jaxon]

[quote name='Vanilla Napalm' timestamp='1341292443' post='3002315']
Well, There we have it. Not only have MK redefined the game 08-onwards, they have effectively redefined the human capacity to communicate. People used to say "NPO won the game", but god damn if they were just a drop in the pond compared to the current eternal hegemony.
Congrats MK, you are not only worse than NPO but you are literally Hitler.
[/quote]

See what I mean, Archon? TIme to do this sad song and dance

VN, you're insulted I named Neo Uruk the worst poster on your side instead of you, aren't you? That's cute. I'm sorry I overlooked you, a snubbing of that sort won't happen again.

[Vanilla Napalm]

[quote name='Stonewall Jaxon' timestamp='1341292930' post='3002327']
See what I mean, Archon? TIme to do this sad song and dance

VN, you're insulted I named Neo Uruk the worst poster on your side instead of you, aren't you? That's cute. I'm sorry I overlooked you, a snubbing of that sort won't happen again.
[/quote]
Oh man, LOVING THE MONIKER! Tight.

Don't worry, i'm sure someone will come in and discuss your 'MK killed thought in CN' line of reasoning. It will be glorious, i'm sure.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='berbers' timestamp='1341279936' post='3002061']
Oh man, you are so right. I correctly recall now that NPO took no damage prior to their top tier coming out of war for a round. Thanks for reminding me oh wise one.
[/quote]
They took a lot less than they would have had the war gone on for the same period (it wouldn't have but for the sake of argument if it had) without hiding most of their upper tier in peace, they would have looked more like TPF in Karma. And we didn't impose reps on NPO anyway so that example isn't really relevant. Just their allies who also hid most of their upper tier nations in peace that never came out.

Edited July 3, 2012 by Azaghul

[Starfox101]

[quote name='Archon' timestamp='1341286665' post='3002117']
Truth be told, I just wanted to waste some time. But this is just depressing. Back in 06-07 we had to actually try and make points. You people are just pathetic. It's nothing but opinion-as-fact or trying desperately to sell !@#$%^&* as reality. Dear god. How I long for Josef Thorne, Philosopher, or even !@#$@#$ Z'ha'dum at this point.
[/quote]
You know the best part about this post? All of us are saying the exact same thing about you guys. You can't seriously be complaining about the posting quality of people like Stonewall, while you have people like banksy representing your AA here. I mean, Christ, half the MK members I see don't even bother using proper grammar, let alone field a respectable argument. You honestly have no ground to complain on, while you sit at the helm of the lulz crew.

It was fun to argue with the NPO. Arguing with MK is solely frustrating. You guys call it a sense of humor, we call it childish behavior. Now, if you're going to complain, you should complain to the right people.

Banksy, I hope you wrote that essay of yours better than your posts here.

[lebubu]

[quote name='Vanilla Napalm' timestamp='1341292443' post='3002315']
Well, There we have it. Not only have MK redefined the game 08-onwards, they have effectively redefined the human capacity to communicate. People used to say "NPO won the game", but god damn if they were just a drop in the pond compared to the current eternal hegemony.
Congrats MK, you are not only worse than NPO but you are literally Hitler.
[/quote]

unknown smurf should add this to the op

[Starfox101]

Example: Above

Another half sarcastic joke post, with the grammar of a cell phone text message.

[rsoxbronco1]

[quote name='Starfox101' timestamp='1341297935' post='3002401']
Example: Above

Another half sarcastic joke post, with the grammar of a cell phone text message.
[/quote]
Ah, so now we're criticizing grammar? I thought we were arguing over the content quality of MK's OWF brigade.

You're in such a rush to denigrate MK's posting that you're just adding commas to your sentence for the hell of it!