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One thing that really confuses me is this claim of "you knew about the reps 3 days ago." Sure, they knew, but they didn't accept the terms until yesterday. Since when is the time it takes to send reps counted from when the terms are issued?

I hate to use this example, but remember that idiotically long thread that we (Tetris) inspired when everyone went crazy over us hitting that micro after 24 hours? We gave them 24 hours to respond period (not accept the terms, but acknowledge the received the PM) and everyone went crazy over it. Now LSF was contacted, given the terms, and told IRON they'd need to discuss them. LSF proceeded to accept the terms, and while they posted a immature apology (which we all know is the real reason IRON DoW'd), they didn't even receive 18 (is it 18? Seems to be the number being thrown around in this thread a lot) hours to pay the tech.

Where is all the faux moral outrage people (aside from the standard ones of course)?!

edit: Typo

Edited by USMC123
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[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1340226788' post='2990510']
So you ignored it on purpose because we made fun of you in the apology you forced us to give you at gunpoint, and you wanted blood. Finally, some honesty. It didn't matter what we had done or not had done, what mattered was that you didn't like our apology and were gonna stick it to us because we hurt your ego. Now we can finally stop pretending that you actually think or thought we were being dishonest or reneging on our agreement, and instead focus on how pathetic the largest alliance on Bob is because a sub-1m NS alliance wouldn't bend over backwards to them without giving them some backtalk with it. Tell me: how does the immense power feel?
[/quote]

I get what you are trying to do here, but it seems to fall flat. Opti was just tying to kid and was totally going to own up, only he didn't. LSF was going to knock it off only you didn't. LSF was going to apologize, only we all know you didn't. LSF was going to pay reps only you didn't try until after so much other nonsense. You are clinging with all your might onto the non-stated premise that once Sabcat pokes around for aid targets it was all going to be rosey and done with. However, at what point does the nonsense end? Had we been further jerked around, another instance would have popped up as the "we were complying!" moment. Then you would have just latched on to that as the reason to shout bully at IRON. I'm not buying what you are selling and perhaps we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

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[quote name='xoindotnler' timestamp='1340225687' post='2990495']
I'm still waiting till some one tells me it was a joke AND for someone to apology for it. I feel so left out :( .
[/quote]
it was a joke!

and sorry, xoin. No harm done yeah?

cool.

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[quote name='ccabal86' timestamp='1340227500' post='2990523']
Actually, that's a third option LSF could have taken
[/quote]
Actually, a huge issue is that IRON absolutely refused to negotiate down the terms at all, and in fact increased the terms in the middle of the negotiation (previously it was just an apology from the imitator, then it was on behalf of all LSF).

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[quote name='Matt Miller' timestamp='1340228089' post='2990538']
I get what you are trying to do here, but it seems to fall flat. Opti was just tying to kid and was totally going to own up, only he didn't. LSF was going to knock it off only you didn't. LSF was going to apologize, only we all know you didn't. LSF was going to pay reps only you didn't try until after so much other nonsense. You are clinging with all your might onto the non-stated premise that once Sabcat pokes around for aid targets it was all going to be rosey and done with. However, at what point does the nonsense end? Had we been further jerked around, another instance would have popped up as the "we were complying!" moment. Then you would have just latched on to that as the reason to shout bully at IRON. I'm not buying what you are selling and perhaps we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.
[/quote]

Question, how does one say, "gotcha!" at the end of a joke like this where someone figures out that (for the sake of clarity) MCRABT is actually Opti and gets all pissed off before he can?

I mean, what we are stuck with here is IRON claiming it wasn't a joke, me posting logs proving it WAS a joke, and IRON claiming it was a CYA thing and that nobody said it was joke during the joke (to the offended party that is).

A joke isn't really a joke if you tell someone the punchline first.

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[quote name='Matt Miller' timestamp='1340228089' post='2990538']
I get what you are trying to do here, but it seems to fall flat. Opti was just tying to kid and was totally going to own up, only he didn't. LSF was going to knock it off only you didn't. LSF was going to apologize, only we all know you didn't. LSF was going to pay reps only you didn't try until after so much other nonsense. You are clinging with all your might onto the non-stated premise that once Sabcat pokes around for aid targets it was all going to be rosey and done with. However, at what point does the nonsense end? Had we been further jerked around, another instance would have popped up as the "we were complying!" moment. Then you would have just latched on to that as the reason to shout bully at IRON. I'm not buying what you are selling and perhaps we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.[/quote]
Again, your own leader acknowledged in our channel that he recognized Opti as having left LSF. I'm not sure how logs can be clearer. It's just now, 18 hours after the fact and a few hours after finding out about the subtle jab in the apology, that you decide that no, finally, you don't recognize him as gone because hey, LSF forgot to unmask him.

Sorry, our admin isn't always around. There's only forty of us and it's rarely that big of an emergency.

As for the tech, your govt went to bed after we posted the apology, we queried you this morning and you ignored it. You then acted like we never intended to send it despite logs showing exactly the contrary.

At this point, just come out and say it: you wanted to DoW on something.

Edited by Yevgeni Luchenkov
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[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1340228631' post='2990567']
At this point, just come out and say it: you wanted to DoW on something.
[/quote]

Only that's not the case. The sum total of the events added up like I stated already.

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[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1340226788' post='2990510']
So you ignored it on purpose because we made fun of you in the apology you forced us to give you at gunpoint, and you wanted blood. Finally, some honesty. It didn't matter what we had done or not had done, what mattered was that you didn't like our apology and were gonna stick it to us because we hurt your ego. Now we can finally stop pretending that you actually think or thought we were being dishonest or reneging on our agreement, and instead focus on how pathetic the largest alliance on Bob is because a sub-1m NS alliance wouldn't bend over backwards to them without giving them some backtalk with it. Tell me: how does the immense power feel?
[/quote]

If I say to you sorry, but $%&@ you in the ass it ceases to become an apology. What mattered to us what the following string of events that I'm sure you will try to dismiss as coincidence:

- A member of LSF contacting GLoF with screenshots of NoR's forums in an attempt to have them attack NoR
- A seperate member of LSF on a different occasion impersonating IRON government asking them to attack NoR at update.
- Your representative agreeing our demands were reasonable but stating LSF would not comply. Regardless we gave you 24 hours to think about actually sanctioning this behaviour.
- During that time despite your representative labelling our terms reasonable and acknowledging wrong doing, members of your alliance proceeded to continue with similar behaviour albeit this was just mocking and did not have any other motives.
- LSF then lets the first 24 hour deadline fly by without response, we took time to consider an appropriate response and INT contacted us to say that you had changed your mind well and would accept the terms well after said deadline was given. We set about for the second time proceeding with diplomatic action despite being spat on at the first attempt.
- LSF then post what was a pretty terrible apology even without the $%&@ you message, a couple of minutes after the deadline we set pushing your luck again, but we accept it and are willing to move on and put the issue to bed.
- I query Comrade Trotsky to arrange payment for tech and get no reply.
- You post in your $%&@ you message that I will have to take said tech from your cold dead hands.
- Despite stating that you have removed the member as you agreed it emerges that you have not and he is still registered as a member on your forums.
- I ask in said thread when I can expect my tech.
- Subsequently it emerges your apology was actually a $%&@ you message.
- After this is exposed on the OWF and on IRC you scramble to arrange tech payments.


It is clear from this process that

1) You were more than willing to sanction Optimistics actions and in fact you continue to defend them.
2) You didn't care about being reasonable.
3) Diplomacy with you was a waste of time.
4) You think you can run around doing whatever you like without consequences.
5) You have a major victim complex.

Of course it is convenient to spin this as IRON is a big bad bully, the reality is we lent you every courtesy and through the entire process you proceeded to act in a provocative way without any regard for your allies for really no reason whatsoever. As the old saying says can't do the time don't do the crime. ;)

Edited by MCRABT
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[quote name='MCRABT' timestamp='1340228968' post='2990580']
If I say to you sorry, but $%&@ you in the ass it ceases to become an apology.
[/quote]

What did you expect from a forced apology? :facepalm:

Edited by LittleRena
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[quote name='USMC123' timestamp='1340219015' post='2990374']
Interesting how you didn't post the evidence I sent Matt Miller last night.

[spoiler]
Just a note, LSF allows multiple non-LSF friends and allies in their private channel, so I am redacting any non-LSF IRC nicks (looks like there was only one other talking), save for my own and Bob from Dark Templar who entered the channel during this all (this mostly serves to prove he didn't state it was a joke after getting caught).




[/spoiler]

Of course, posting this would be detrimental to this whole "- Sanctioning the false impression of an IRON government official with intent to deceive an IRON ally and in doing so attempting to cause an unwarranted attack on an innocent third party" thing. No matter that the sanctioning of it is patently false.
[/quote]

The logs seem to suggest the posing attempt was most likely to end as a joke, and I believe that to be the case, I believed that to be the case from the beginning. What it does, however, show is that the 2 LSF guys on the radio last night were slightly disingenuous with their assessment that he acted alone. While the actual act was committed alone, it is clear he was, in typical LSF fashion, being egged on by other people. The logs really dont change anything for me, as I already thought the IRON CB was solid, but it does shed some light on a few other points. Id like to have those full logs, tbh.

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[quote name='LittleRena' timestamp='1340229201' post='2990585']
What did you expect from a forced apology? :facepalm:
[/quote]

As can be said, "What would you expect from spying information"

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[quote name='MCRABT' timestamp='1340228968' post='2990580']
If I say to you sorry, but $%&@ you in the ass it ceases to become an apology. What mattered to us what the following string of events that I'm sure you will try to dismiss as coincidence:

- A member of LSF contacting GLoF with screenshots of NoR's forums in an attempt to have them attack NoR
- A seperate member of LSF on a different occasion impersonating IRON government asking them to attack NoR at update.
- Your representative agreeing our demands were reasonable but stating LSF would not comply. Regardless we gave you 24 hours to think about actually sanctioning this behaviour.
- During that time despite your representative labelling our terms reasonable and acknowledging wrong doing, members of your alliance proceeded to continue with similar behaviour albeit this was just mocking and did not have any other motives.
- LSF then lets the first 24 hour deadline fly by without response, we took time to consider an appropriate response and INT contacted us to say that you had changed your mind well and would accept the terms well after said deadline was given. We set about for the second time proceeding with diplomatic action despite being spat on at the first attempt.
- LSF then post what was a pretty terrible apology even without the $%&@ you message, a couple of minutes after the deadline we set pushing your luck again, but we accept it and are willing to move on and put the issue to bed.
- I query Comrade Trotsky to arrange payment for tech and get no reply.
- You post in your $%&@ you message that I will have to take said tech from your cold dead hands.
- Despite stating that you have removed the member as you agreed it emerges that you have not and he is still registered as a member on your forums.
- I ask in said thread when I can expect my tech.
- Subsequently it emerges your apology was actually a $%&@ you message.
- After this is exposed on the OWF and on IRC you scramble to arrange tech payments.


It is clear from this process that

1) You were more than willing to sanction Optimistics actions and in fact you continue to defend them.
2) You didn't care about being reasonable.
3) Diplomacy with you was a waste of time.
4) You think you can run around doing whatever you like without consequences.
5) You have a major victim complex.

Of course it is convenient to spin this as IRON is a big bad bully, the reality is we lent you every courtesy and through the entire process you proceeded to act in a provocative way without any regard for your allies for really no reason whatsoever. As the old saying says can't do the time don't do the crime. ;)
[/quote]

[img]http://www.whatsyourshirtsay.com/images/and_boom_01.jpg[/img]

I think people have gotten so used to the notion of not needing a CB that when a CB comes up, they don't know what to do with themselves and try to ink it out. You guys (IRON) didn't even need to negotiate with them after that sort of crap but did anyways. As much as I may dislike you guys, can't fault you at all for this one.

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[quote name='LittleRena' timestamp='1340229201' post='2990585']
What did you expect from a forced apology? :facepalm:
[/quote]

The idea that the apology had to be forced, says alot about LSF and how much concern they have for continuing to paint their allies in a crappy corner. The moment they knew IRON had issue with it, an apology should have been offered, and not needed to be sought. I hate forced apologies, I have never given one, but I damn sure have given my share of pre-emptive apologies when something is so clearly wrong.

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[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1340229309' post='2990586']
The logs seem to suggest the posing attempt was most likely to end as a joke, and I believe that to be the case, I believed that to be the case from the beginning. What it does, however, show is that the 2 LSF guys on the radio last night were slightly disingenuous with their assessment that he acted alone. While the actual act was committed alone, it is clear he was, in typical LSF fashion, being egged on by other people. The logs really dont change anything for me, as I already thought the IRON CB was solid, but it does shed some light on a few other points. Id like to have those full logs, tbh.
[/quote]

Just for future reference, if someone impersonated you on irc. Would you declare war on them?

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[quote name='MCRABT' timestamp='1340228968' post='2990580']
If I say to you sorry, but $%&@ you in the ass it ceases to become an apology. What mattered to us what the following string of events that I'm sure you will try to dismiss as coincidence:

- A member of LSF contacting GLoF with screenshots of NoR's forums in an attempt to have them attack NoR
- A seperate member of LSF on a different occasion impersonating IRON government asking them to attack NoR at update.
- Your representative agreeing our demands were reasonable but stating LSF would not comply. Regardless we gave you 24 hours to think about actually sanctioning this behaviour.
- During that time despite your representative labelling our terms reasonable and acknowledging wrong doing, members of your alliance proceeded to continue with similar behaviour albeit this was just mocking and did not have any other motives.
- LSF then lets the first 24 hour deadline fly by without response, we took time to consider an appropriate response and INT contacted us to say that you had changed your mind well and would accept the terms well after said deadline was given. We set about for the second time proceeding with diplomatic action despite being spat on at the first attempt.
- LSF then post what was a pretty terrible apology even without the $%&@ you message, a couple of minutes after the deadline we set pushing your luck again, but we accept it and are willing to move on and put the issue to bed.
- I query Comrade Trotsky to arrange payment for tech and get no reply.
- You post in your $%&@ you message that I will have to take said tech from your cold dead hands.
- Despite stating that you have removed the member as you agreed it emerges that you have not and he is still registered as a member on your forums.
- I ask in said thread when I can expect my tech.
- Subsequently it emerges your apology was actually a $%&@ you message.
- After this is exposed on the OWF and on IRC you scramble to arrange tech payments.


It is clear from this process that

1) You were more than willing to sanction Optimistics actions and in fact you continue to defend them.
2) You didn't care about being reasonable.
3) Diplomacy with you was a waste of time.
4) You think you can run around doing whatever you like without consequences.
5) You have a major victim complex.

Of course it is convenient to spin this as IRON is a big bad bully, the reality is we lent you every courtesy and through the entire process you proceeded to act in a provocative way without any regard for your allies for really no reason whatsoever. As the old saying says can't do the time don't do the crime. ;)
[/quote]
Except:
1)You recognized Opti as having left LSF and not being a member of our alliance.
2)You acknowledged the apology and said: "that'll do, LSF".
3)We tried to repeatedly contact you to make sure the targets were the proper ones.
4)You still decided to attack, lying your way through the DoW (about points 1 to 3), after exactly eighteen hours had elapsed.

Spare us your leniency.

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[quote name='Pacifist Ninja' timestamp='1340228481' post='2990557']
Actually, a huge issue is that IRON absolutely refused to negotiate down the terms at all, and in fact increased the terms in the middle of the negotiation (previously it was just an apology from the imitator, then it was on behalf of all LSF).
[/quote]

You don't negotiate down reps that are only symbolic to begin with. We upped the ante a bit when instead of working towards a peaceful solution, you continued with your shenanigans.

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[quote name='LittleRena' timestamp='1340229201' post='2990585']
What did you expect from a forced apology? :facepalm:
[/quote]
A forced apology should never say "$%&@ you in the ass" unless you would like to be rolled/the rolling to continue. Its pretty much common sense.


[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1340229437' post='2990592']
Just for future reference, if someone impersonated you on irc. Would you declare war on them?
[/quote]
(rey the great)

That's not the whole situation at all here though, its the fact that they have tried to get GLOF to attack NoR twice now, the most recent time being while impersonating IRON government, and then apologized by saying "$%&@ iron in the ass". LSF is acting like we all have come to expect from them at this point, and its a miracle they haven't pissed off more people than they already have.

Edited by Penlugue Solaris
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[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1340229309' post='2990586']
The logs seem to suggest the posing attempt was most likely to end as a joke, and I believe that to be the case, I believed that to be the case from the beginning. What it does, however, show is that the 2 LSF guys on the radio last night were slightly disingenuous with their assessment that he acted alone. While the actual act was committed alone, it is clear he was, in typical LSF fashion, being egged on by other people. The logs really dont change anything for me, as I already thought the IRON CB was solid, but it does shed some light on a few other points. Id like to have those full logs, tbh.
[/quote]

He did the actions on his own. Were there people in the background herping and derping saying that he should do it and how awesome it'll be? Yes. I don't think that is fair to hold against LSF on the whole though. Every alliance has those people that either, 1) don't understand politics on Bob/the ramifications for their actions; 2) are just in it for "teh lulz"; and/or 3) Just don't care what will happen.

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[quote name='ccabal86' timestamp='1340229538' post='2990596']
You don't negotiate down reps that are only symbolic to begin with. We upped the ante a bit when instead of working towards a peaceful solution, you continued with your shenanigans.
[/quote]

You literally just said it would have been possible for LSF to make amends and Opti to remain in the alliance...

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[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1340229512' post='2990593']
Except:
1)You recognized Opti as having left LSF and not being a member of our alliance.
2)You acknowledged the apology and said: "that'll do, LSF".
3)We tried to repeatedly contact you to make sure the targets were the proper ones.
4)You still decided to attack, lying your way through the DoW (about points 1 to 3), after exactly eighteen hours had elapsed.

Spare us your leniency.
[/quote]

1. Are you sure you have your MCRABTs correct? May need to read through your own logs again.
2. From a glance read over it seems to be alright, but once you find out the hidden meetings and the lack of any kind of effort put into it, it won't do. You do understand that apologies should have some kind of effort right? Do you need a definition of effort? Or is that not in LSF vocabulary because this situation dictates that it's not.
3. Seemed like a bunch of pandering around and waiting till the last minute to do something with conscious effort.
4. If after 18 hours no signs of an expulsion, repeated mockery, etc etc, do you really think you guys would be expected to do anything? LSF's handling of this situation is mediocre at best, INT put in more effort than they did and they didn't even do anything. It's not exactly saying "we want to resolve this situation" either.

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[quote name='MCRABT' timestamp='1340228968' post='2990580']
If I say to you sorry, but $%&@ you in the ass it ceases to become an apology. What mattered to us what the following string of events that I'm sure you will try to dismiss as coincidence:

- A member of LSF contacting GLoF with screenshots of NoR's forums in an attempt to have them attack NoR
- A seperate member of LSF on a different occasion impersonating IRON government asking them to attack NoR at update.
- Your representative agreeing our demands were reasonable but stating LSF would not comply. Regardless we gave you 24 hours to think about actually sanctioning this behaviour.
- During that time despite your representative labelling our terms reasonable and acknowledging wrong doing, members of your alliance proceeded to continue with similar behaviour albeit this was just mocking and did not have any other motives.
- LSF then lets the first 24 hour deadline fly by without response, we took time to consider an appropriate response and INT contacted us to say that you had changed your mind well and would accept the terms well after said deadline was given. We set about for the second time proceeding with diplomatic action despite being spat on at the first attempt.
- LSF then post what was a pretty terrible apology even without the $%&@ you message, a couple of minutes after the deadline we set pushing your luck again, but we accept it and are willing to move on and put the issue to bed.
- I query Comrade Trotsky to arrange payment for tech and get no reply.
- You post in your $%&@ you message that I will have to take said tech from your cold dead hands.
- Despite stating that you have removed the member as you agreed it emerges that you have not and he is still registered as a member on your forums.
- I ask in said thread when I can expect my tech.
- Subsequently it emerges your apology was actually a $%&@ you message.
- After this is exposed on the OWF and on IRC you scramble to arrange tech payments.


It is clear from this process that

1) You were more than willing to sanction Optimistics actions and in fact you continue to defend them.
2) You didn't care about being reasonable.
3) Diplomacy with you was a waste of time.
4) You think you can run around doing whatever you like without consequences.
5) You have a major victim complex.

Of course it is convenient to spin this as IRON is a big bad bully, the reality is we lent you every courtesy and through the entire process you proceeded to act in a provocative way without any regard for your allies for really no reason whatsoever. As the old saying says can't do the time don't do the crime. ;)
[/quote]

All I really get from this post is that IRON take themselves entirely too seriously. Your list of events up there are missing a lot of critical things, and pretty much ignore everything in your own OP. I'm not going to sit here and address everything on this wall of things, because they've already been addressed ad nauseam throughout this thread, and I'm sure more people will have already responded to this by the time I'm through typing. It's just not worth it; go back and read yourself. All in all, LSF were already going to be at war for a very long time, so if screwing up NoR's staggers on us to mend your bruised ego is worth it to you, then that's your choice. We both know this war is stupid and unnecessary, and I'm really not sure what was going on over in the heads of IRON's gov when you guys decided your exploitation and subsequent declaration of war on LSF was a good idea. Hope everything works out for you.

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