NoR declares war on LSF

[Nestor Durruti Magon]

Sup y'all.

I aided both of the "rogues" (what rogues?).
I was the one who unsanctioned one of 'em too.
I was the first LSF nation to respond to the subrosa cowardly attack on our alliance from fascist scum who don't even bother to post a declaration.

We went into this with our eyes wide open, and all of our allies knew exactly what we were doing. This attack came as no surprise to us, nor to our allies, several of whom warned us before it actually happened. Nothing was "stupid" or "undisciplined" about this direct threat, a threat we will make good on. Nordreich is a bunch of fascist scum that deserve every lost pixel they get. There are innumerable reasons for this. Those who apologize for them are tacit supporters of fascism, both in this silly game and in real life.

No pasaran. CN sera la tumba del fascismo.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Nestor Durruti Magon

[ccabal86]

So basically you are calling everyone who thinks NoR is in the right here a fascist both IC and OOC? Wow.

[Nestor Durruti Magon]

If you can point to the line between IC and OOC fascism within NoR, I might be willing to change my mind to thinking that people who want to "roleplay" Germany during World War II, use Nazi iconography and names are just "eccentric" and not fascists.

Unfortunately, that line does not exist. Can white supremacists and Nazis be "in the right" when they are acting as white supremacists and Nazis? No. They can only be "in the right" when they stop. It doesn't matter whether you think they were "right" to attack the LSF who PURPOSELY goaded them into attacking. What matters is whether they are right at all. And of course they aren't. They're Nazis.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1339685909' post='2983385']
A few members of LSF sent aid to a two man AA that attacked Nor. Considering that LSF is a small alliance and small alliances can't get away with things like that without either getting attacked or paying massive reparations to avoid the war or both, probably not the best decision those individual LSF nations could have made.

However, let's not forget that it's not uncommon anymore for alliances to aid another in war. If one is large enough, what's the other side going to do...declare war on the offender?

This is very much a matter of "might makes right" - so why pretend otherwise.

Also, anyone know what's happening about the Umbrella nation that provided $4,500 and 2000 soldiers to the same AA during the fighting.

[IMG]http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww69/WhiteChocolate669/Cyber%20Nations%20Album/Umbrellaprovidingaid.jpg[/IMG]

Nor planning on attacking Umbrella as well?
[/quote]



Let me guess this one for you, seeing as it's being avoided.....................................NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

[magicninja]

[quote name='Nestor Durruti Magon' timestamp='1339687395' post='2983420']
If you can point to the line between IC and OOC fascism within NoR, I might be willing to change my mind to thinking that people who want to "roleplay" Germany during World War II, use Nazi iconography and names are just "eccentric" and not fascists.

Unfortunately, that line does not exist. Can white supremacists and Nazis be "in the right" when they are acting as white supremacists and Nazis? No. They can only be "in the right" when they stop. It doesn't matter whether you think they were "right" to attack the LSF who PURPOSELY goaded them into attacking. What matters is whether they are right at all. And of course they aren't. They're Nazis.
[/quote]

Of course they are right....and your left. That is what this is all about no? They are inherently right and that is why you don't like them. They are too right. So right they must be wrong. You just can't stand how right they are.

[Nestor Durruti Magon]

Maybe you can stand fascism (which is, in effect, saying you stand for fascism, as all it takes is a population willing to look the other way). I suppose that makes your MO to allow fascists to organize and recruit. That's not my MO.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwcKwGS7OSQ

[magicninja]

[quote name='Nestor Durruti Magon' timestamp='1339687945' post='2983443']
Maybe you can stand fascism (which is, in effect, saying you stand for fascism, as all it takes is a population willing to look the other way). I suppose that makes your MO to allow fascists to organize and recruit. That's not my MO.

[/quote]

You do realize that you at least are as !@#$% crazy as any fascist from another direction right? I hate school uniforms.

[Enamel32]

[quote name='Ayatollah Bromeini' timestamp='1339684860' post='2983370']
Where were all of these people who all of a sudden care about what is "right" and "wrong" when Polar was getting beat down again due to a 2 year old grudge?
[/quote]
That's a great question. I know where you were!

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1339652418' post='2983028']
Yes, please tell us more about how the longest-lasting leftist alliance in CN needs to change things up after more than 5 years.
[/quote]
Please feel free to join them.

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1339653642' post='2983052']
I would love to see our allies in CnG choose this path vs yet another steaming pile from MK, but that's just me.
[/quote]
This almost sounds like you would like to have another shot at them Vol.

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1339656770' post='2983124']
This NoR is a reformation of the original. That's like trying to claim MK and NPO weren't enemies from the
LUE era. Hell, NoR has a long history vs Leftist alliances.
[/quote]
So does TPF so does Valhalla can you say any of us are the same as we were 4 or 5 years ago. Your argument is terrible. NoR reformed and for the last couple years have pretty much ignored the left even though they were constantly poked. Yes NoR is reborn but no NoR has evolved far beyond what it once was and for the better IMO.

[quote name='berbers' timestamp='1339670320' post='2983223']
It's funny, MK does something just as bad or worse and get's the support of all kinds of allies (and allies of allies ironically), yet LSF doesn't get the same? Is that how this works?
[/quote]
So everyone should support bs tactics? I await to see what NATO will do in this.
[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1339680991' post='2983324']
We could have an argument over several pages about this, but I really don't want to distract from a much more interesting topic. Know when to leave something be.

As for the topic at hand:

What a disproportionate mess, that's in part of Nordreich's making. LSF behaved stupidly, recklessly, but this entire alliance declaration is ridiculous, inflammatory and unnecessary. All of that time Nordreich spent distancing itself from the past was readily flushed when the opportunity arose, at the most basic of baits.
[/quote]
This takes the cake for the most spin ever. LSF has been poking at NoR for the last 4 or 5 months. NoR took it with a smile. Then they actively come out and support rogue activity. Fact is that NoR tried to reach out to LSF to settle this diplomaticaly. LSF response send more aid and lift the sanction. NoR let the slap in the face go and were willing to walk away. LSF chose to punch them in the nose and that is what caused this. No matter what INT NATO or any other AA does from here on out will change the fact that NoR was willing to let this go and LSF pushed it.

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1339681017' post='2983325']
Brb joining INT.
[/quote]
why not i dont think youve made it there yet, just another stamp on your passport. It should be about full now isnt it.

[quote name='Ayatollah Bromeini' timestamp='1339684860' post='2983370']
People who have never given the slightest hint that they give two !@#$% before are now experts on the history between the CN-left and NoR, INT, LSF, and the dynamics of the INT-LSF relationship as well as CnG.

[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-hp97yAfP_hM/T3HWqMFo-sI/AAAAAAAAArs/ZfADstSp5JI/s400/willy-wonka-wilder-300x300.jpg[/img]





For the record, can we cut the bull !@#$ and stop pretending that LSF deserves to die, or that they're getting hit for being 'in the wrong'?


Where were all of these people who all of a sudden care about what is "right" and "wrong" when Polar was getting beat down again due to a 2 year old grudge? Where were they when NPO got pre-empted for simply existing? Where were they when SOS was being burned to the ground just because they could be? Where are they now that CSN is being hit because lolDave?


Don't get me wrong, I'm not condemning any of the actions stated above nor the alliances who participated in said actions.

But please shut the $%&@ up and be honest this time. This has nothing to do with LSF being wrong or right. None of you complaining in this thread give a damn about that. It has everything to do with LSF simply not having the same sort of political clout NoR does, thus their cheer leading section is a bit weaker. Thus they ~deserve what they get~.
[/quote]
whooo this post smells of !@#$. LSF is absolutely getting hit because there in the wrong. NoR has not attempted to at any time too continue the path of old with the left. I had actually thought many had put this behind them. LSF apparently didnt. They went in to the local bar ran their mouths and when that didnt work they picked a fight. While one side was trying to be reasonable LSF went ahead and punched them in the nose now they have the fight they wanted. Considering some of the propoganda in this thread from certain individuals it seems like INT was probably at the table right behind them cheering them on. Dont try and spin LSF as a victim here it is far far from the truth. Time for the left to stop playing the victim card and lay in the bed they have made for themselves.

[quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1339685909' post='2983385']
A few members of LSF sent aid to a two man AA that attacked Nor. Considering that LSF is a small alliance and small alliances can't get away with things like that without either getting attacked or paying massive reparations to avoid the war or both, probably not the best decision those individual LSF nations could have made.

However, let's not forget that it's not uncommon anymore for alliances to aid another in war. If one is large enough, what's the other side going to do...declare war on the offender?

This is very much a matter of "might makes right" - so why pretend otherwise.

Also, anyone know what's happening about the Umbrella nation that provided $4,500 and 2000 soldiers to the same AA during the fighting.

[IMG]http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww69/WhiteChocolate669/Cyber%20Nations%20Album/Umbrellaprovidingaid.jpg[/IMG]

Nor planning on attacking Umbrella as well?
[/quote]
might makes right really. How about enough is enough. It wouldnt have mattered who did this NoRs response would be the same.

Why would they do that when Umbrella took care of the situation. See diplomacy does work.




[quote name='Nestor Durruti Magon' timestamp='1339686286' post='2983395']
Sup y'all.

I aided both of the "rogues" (what rogues?).
I was the one who unsanctioned one of 'em too.
I was the first LSF nation to respond to the subrosa cowardly attack on our alliance from fascist scum who don't even bother to post a declaration.

We went into this with our eyes wide open, and all of our allies knew exactly what we were doing. This attack came as no surprise to us, nor to our allies, several of whom warned us before it actually happened. Nothing was "stupid" or "undisciplined" about this direct threat, a threat we will make good on. Nordreich is a bunch of fascist scum that deserve every lost pixel they get. There are innumerable reasons for this. Those who apologize for them are tacit supporters of fascism, both in this silly game and in real life.

No pasaran. CN sera la tumba del fascismo.
[/quote]
This pretty much sums it up guys LSF wanted a fight and now they have it.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1339689564' post='2983481']
This pretty much sums it up guys LSF wanted a fight and now they have it.
[/quote]

So did MK. Let's just all enjoy the fun, throw some punches, enjoy the fireworks, then sit back and get ready for the next round.

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Ayatollah Bromeini' timestamp='1339684860' post='2983370']

Where were all of these people who all of a sudden care about what is "right" and "wrong" when Polar was getting beat down again due to a 2 year old grudge? Where were they when NPO got pre-empted for simply existing? Where were they when SOS was being burned to the ground just because they could be? Where are they now that CSN is being hit because lolDave?

[/quote]

/me waves. [img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/awesome.gif[/img]

[Jake Liebenow]

Tacit supporters of fascism, both in this game and real life....

There's a reason why [OOC]OOC tags[/OOC] are used, you know. This sort of claim is baseless, and is truly damaging to people just trying to have some fun.

Bah, LSF is disgusting.

[Anu Drake]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1339689564' post='2983481']
No matter what INT NATO or any other AA does from here on out will change the fact that NoR was willing to let this go and LSF pushed it.
[/quote]

[IMG]http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u55/AnuDrake/yup.png[/IMG]

[quote]So everyone should support bs tactics? I await to see what NATO will do in this. [/quote]

Me too. There's obviously (I hope) a lot more to this whole throwdown but it will be interesting to watch develop. Not involved enough to have any idea anymore, and I'm not saying Nargles are involved, but:

[IMG]http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u55/AnuDrake/nargles.jpg[/IMG]

[Bordiga]

I'm pretty sure that White Chocolate's point is not that Umbrella came to an agreement with NordReich as opposed to what LSF did. It is that the same situation occurs all the time with different alliances, but who are allowed to get away with it due to their political/military standing. Like, for example, is happening right now with MK. Or every other recent big war.

Quite frankly I dislike both NordReich and CSN. But allies are allies are allies are allies.

[Owned-You]

The key distinction between the two examples is when Umbrella were contacted by NoR about the incident, Umbrella accepted responsibility and worked with NoR to find a solution. Whereas with LSF, NoR received a full blown denial of any actions or wrong-doing... It was only after this fact that NoR rolled out the tanks. Under those circumstances, I don't think anyone in this game who can fault NoR for retaliating. I would have reacted similarly and I imagine the vast majority of people would have did the same.

Lastly, this whole narrative that LSF is embroiled in some noble struggle preempted by "fascist" aggressors is nothing more then propaganda piece designed to try and galvanize some support and reignite that ancient Left vs Right struggle. Because LSF is stubbornly entrenched in reliving the past for whatever reason.

[Vinzent Zeppelin]

[quote name='Bordiga' timestamp='1339692635' post='2983576']
I'm pretty sure that White Chocolate's point is not that Umbrella came to an agreement with NordReich as opposed to what LSF did. It is that the same situation occurs all the time with different alliances, but who are allowed to get away with it due to their political/military standing. Like, for example, is happening right now with MK. Or every other recent big war.

Quite frankly I dislike both NordReich and CSN. But allies are allies are allies are allies.
[/quote]

Certainly, nations knowingly aiding nuclear rogues happens frequently. What doesn't happen frequently: Five nations from an alliance knowingly aiding a nuclear rogue, one of whom uses his power as the alliance's team senate candidate to remove sanctions placed on said nation, and said alliance refusing to engage in dialogue when contacted about the matter.

For those interested, here is what happened during our attempts to resolve this peacefully:

[quote] 19:28:45 (Zeppelin) hail
19:28:56 [Sabcat] hi
19:29:23 (Zeppelin) so about this rogue incident. I noticed a couple LSF members have sent aid to one of them
19:29:38 [Sabcat] rogues?
19:30:18 (Zeppelin) http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=247067
19:30:19 (Zeppelin) and http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=410758
19:31:20 [Sabcat] what rogues?
19:31:36 (Zeppelin) the nations I just linked.
19:31:55 (Zeppelin) unless this is a LSF-sanctioned action, in which case I guess they wouldn't be rogues after all
19:33:48 (Zeppelin) so?
19:34:45 [Sabcat] Rogues? what rogues?[/quote]

[quote]23:25 bandnerd[NoR] aggressivenutmeg, are you here?
23:26 Aggressivenutmeg hey
23:26 bandnerd[NoR] any chance you have got my PM's on your forums?
23:27 Aggressivenutmeg hang on
23:27 Aggressivenutmeg I just saw them now
23:28 Aggressivenutmeg we're fully aware
23:34 bandnerd[NoR] and why then exactly have 3 of your members, senate member included, sent aid to those at war against us?
23:37 Aggressivenutmeg Our members are free to do as they please[/quote]

In hindsight, I wasn't really expecting anything to come of it; LSF was already making war preparations. From what I can tell, they just wanted a good old-fashioned brawl with us, and that's fine. But let's not be disingenuous; this is a situation entirely of their making, and has nothing to do with Arod Johns being Arod Johns.

[Sabcat]

[quote name='Owned-You' timestamp='1339693405' post='2983592']
The key distinction between the two examples is when Umbrella were contacted by NoR about the incident, Umbrella accepted responsibility and worked with NoR to find a solution. Whereas with LSF, NoR received a full blown denial of any actions or wrong-doing... It was only after this fact that NoR rolled out the tanks. Under those circumstances, I don't think anyone in this game who can fault NoR for retaliating. I would have reacted similarly and I imagine the vast majority of people would have did the same.

Lastly, this whole narrative that LSF is embroiled in some noble struggle preempted by "fascist" aggressors is nothing more then propaganda piece designed to try and galvanize some support and reignite that ancient Left vs Right struggle. Because LSF is stubbornly entrenched in reliving the past for whatever reason.
[/quote]

Full blown denial? Rogues, what rogues. Is what was said to NoR, by me.

Fascism is the vanguard of reaction. It is at once the manifestation, the contributory cause and the principle beneficiary of society’s decomposition. As such I believe I afforded NoR all the respect that they are due. The result of this was, as we all know, war and the war will be fought. Regardless who does or does not participate there will be no complaint from me. There is after all no finer cause for a socialist than the fight against fascism.

[Bordiga]

[quote name='Owned-You' timestamp='1339693405' post='2983592']
The key distinction between the two examples is when Umbrella were contacted by NoR about the incident, Umbrella accepted responsibility and worked with NoR to find a solution. Whereas with LSF, NoR received a full blown denial of any actions or wrong-doing... It was only after this fact that NoR rolled out the tanks. Under those circumstances, I don't think anyone in this game who can fault NoR for retaliating. I would have reacted similarly and I imagine the vast majority of people would have did the same.

Lastly, this whole narrative that LSF is embroiled in some noble struggle preempted by "fascist" aggressors is nothing more then propaganda piece designed to try and galvanize some support and reignite that ancient Left vs Right struggle. Because LSF is stubbornly entrenched in reliving the past for whatever reason.
[/quote]

To repeat what I just said, the point is not that umbrella used "diplomacy" compared to LSF's desire for war. That's just silly. The legitimate comparison is between two alliances which actually do similar things, eg. MK right now and LSF; as in, attacking without a CB because they want to. The point is really that CN does not care about justifications for wars anymore, unfortunately, so that this is indeed just about might makes right.

Whinging about LSF doing what it wants in pursuit of its objectives if you can't react in the same way to MK doing so is clearly just hypocrisy.

I'm more inclined to agree with LSF that the politics of many of the inhabitants of NordReich are likely fascist. There are plenty of members of NordReich from the previous incarnations and as anyone can see they blatantly stylize themselves after a certain fascist dictatorship. Many of the current members and government of NordReich were responsible for the crusade against LSF which some might want to just laugh about as years ago, but which held LSF at war for years. My own alliance recently went to war on the basis of revenge for the destruction of our past incarnation.

Frankly, the idea that ideological enmity and real grievances don't provide LSF with enough reason to attack NordReich is fanciful. And given the fact that most wars start for no reason at all, better than what I've come to expect from CN.

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='Anu Drake' timestamp='1339692213' post='2983563']
[IMG]http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u55/AnuDrake/yup.png[/IMG]Me too. There's obviously (I hope) a lot more to this whole throwdown but it will be interesting to watch develop. Not involved enough to have any idea anymore, and I'm not saying Nargles are involved, but:[IMG]http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u55/AnuDrake/nargles.jpg[/IMG]
[/quote]
Being at work and all i cant see the picture but it is good to have an Anu sighting.

[Lurunin]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1339651839' post='2983007']
Im not.. That is not telling LSF to take it on the chin. An ally in the wrong takes it on the chin out of deference to a mistake they made. In this instance, LSF has showed nothing but classlessness from minute 1. I may well end up having to go to war for them, but lets be blunt. LSF deserves to burn.
[/quote]

Coming from you and the kofn raid incident this is priceless

[Prodigal Moon]

What a beautiful demonstration of the inanity of the treaty web. Of course it's fine when it stifles any political movement and allows everyone on the majority side to feel like they're on top. And as long as you don't mind being a satellite AA, it works well enough for when the actual powers decide they want a war. But god forbid the wrong alliance decides to have an agenda. This messes up everything!

[Bordiga]

[quote name='Prodigal Moon' timestamp='1339695201' post='2983652']
What a beautiful demonstration of the inanity of the treaty web. Of course it's fine when it stifles any political movement and allows everyone on the majority side to feel like they're on top. And as long as you don't mind being a satellite AA, it works well enough for when the actual powers decide they want a war. But god forbid the wrong alliance decides to have an agenda. This messes up everything!
[/quote]

Ding ding ding!

[Sabcat]

[quote name='Prodigal Moon' timestamp='1339695201' post='2983652']
What a beautiful demonstration of the inanity of the treaty web. Of course it's fine when it stifles any political movement and allows everyone on the majority side to feel like they're on top. And as long as you don't mind being a satellite AA, it works well enough for when the actual powers decide they want a war. But god forbid the wrong alliance decides to have an agenda. This messes up everything!
[/quote]

We don't talk about the elephant.

[Striderwanabe]

[quote name='Sabcat' timestamp='1339694019' post='2983613']
Full blown denial? Rogues, what rogues. Is what was said to NoR, by me.

Fascism is the vanguard of reaction. It is at once the manifestation, the contributory cause and the principle beneficiary of society’s decomposition. As such I believe I afforded NoR all the respect that they are due. The result of this was, as we all know, war and the war will be fought. Regardless who does or does not participate there will be no complaint from me. There is after all no finer cause for a socialist than the fight against fascism.
[/quote]

Did LSF collectively decide to wage war with no desire for reconciliation, or was it a personal decision on the part of those engaging with the rogue nations? It would be good to know for when we eventually have your members begging us to allow them to surrender.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1339656770' post='2983124']
This NoR is a reformation of the original. That's like trying to claim MK and NPO weren't enemies from the
LUE era. Hell, NoR has a long history vs Leftist alliances.
[/quote]

When an alliance has had to be refounded multiple times it both is and is not the same alliance. It's important to look at both.

The current Nordreich has never had bad blood with leftists. It has gone out of its way to cultivate a positive or at least neutral relationship with them, and swallowed a ton of insults in the process. Until recently it seemed that the leftists, or at least a critical mass of the more experienced ones that could keep the rest somewhat on a leash, were onboard with that effort as well.

And historically, previous incarnations of course have a history of conflict with the left, that is correct as well. Nordish consciousness arose as a reaction, it was the constant attacks of these self-anointed 'anti-fa' police that defined nordishness from the beginning. If they found your nation name or ruler name objectionable they would attack just for that, with all the viciousness that can be expected of someone who has completely dehumanised his target beforehand. That threat caused nordish nations to band together, it caused nordland to coalesce and fight back.

In that context the lengths the current NoR has gone to in attempting to avoid conflict with the leftists is just extraordinary. Don't try to deny it.

[quote name='Illustrious' timestamp='1339679924' post='2983309']
Sorry just had to clarify some things here.



en masse = two nations. x f d



Only four nations of forty one aided the two nations that attacked NoR.

Anyways, these are still facts but at put the true numbers along with them at least.
[/quote]

Here's the problem. Four nations involved. But does LSF disavow those nations? No. Quite the opposite. That puts the whole alliance in it. Right where they want to be.

What rogues? There were no rogues.

[quote name='Nestor Durruti Magon' timestamp='1339686286' post='2983395']
Sup y'all.

I aided both of the "rogues" (what rogues?).
I was the one who unsanctioned one of 'em too.
I was the first LSF nation to respond to the subrosa cowardly attack on our alliance from fascist scum who don't even bother to post a declaration.

We went into this with our eyes wide open, and all of our allies knew exactly what we were doing. This attack came as no surprise to us, nor to our allies, several of whom warned us before it actually happened. Nothing was "stupid" or "undisciplined" about this direct threat, a threat we will make good on. Nordreich is a bunch of fascist scum that deserve every lost pixel they get. There are innumerable reasons for this. Those who apologize for them are tacit supporters of fascism, both in this silly game and in real life.

No pasaran. CN sera la tumba del fascismo.
[/quote]

[quote name='Nestor Durruti Magon' timestamp='1339687395' post='2983420']
If you can point to the line between IC and OOC fascism within NoR, I might be willing to change my mind to thinking that people who want to "roleplay" Germany during World War II, use Nazi iconography and names are just "eccentric" and not fascists.

Unfortunately, that line does not exist. Can white supremacists and Nazis be "in the right" when they are acting as white supremacists and Nazis? No. They can only be "in the right" when they stop. It doesn't matter whether you think they were "right" to attack the LSF who PURPOSELY goaded them into attacking. What matters is whether they are right at all. And of course they aren't. They're Nazis.
[/quote]

[quote name='Sabcat' timestamp='1339694019' post='2983613']
Full blown denial? Rogues, what rogues. Is what was said to NoR, by me.

Fascism is the vanguard of reaction. It is at once the manifestation, the contributory cause and the principle beneficiary of society's decomposition. As such I believe I afforded NoR all the respect that they are due. The result of this was, as we all know, war and the war will be fought. Regardless who does or does not participate there will be no complaint from me. There is after all no finer cause for a socialist than the fight against fascism.
[/quote]


^^^^^^

Confessions preserved in case of edits.

And you two, please, seek therapy.

One last bit to add, hi bordiga

[quote name='Bordiga' timestamp='1339694142' post='2983619']
To repeat what I just said, the point is not that umbrella used "diplomacy" compared to LSF's desire for war. That's just silly. The legitimate comparison is between two alliances which actually do similar things, eg. MK right now and LSF; as in, attacking without a CB because they want to.
[/quote]

I dont agree they are all that similar. MKs case is at least arguable. LSF has no leg to stand on at all. The difference in power/prestige between them is immense and I wont deny that affects how people react as well, but that is far from the only difference in the situations.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Sigrun Vapneir