Some info on Dulra

[Zoomzoomzoom]

[quote name='Phineas' timestamp='1333340262' post='2947159']
Good to know. Also, someone ought to remind Boogeyman657 he is Non Grata, not the NSO. I did a double take there.
[/quote]

Thanks for letting him know

[Phineas]

[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' timestamp='1333340364' post='2947161']
Thanks for letting him know
[/quote]

You're welcome.

[D34th]

[quote name='Artigo' timestamp='1333339731' post='2947154']
They would be rolled
[/quote]

So, as expected, you are ok when rogues receive help unless if said rogues are attacking your alliance and/or your allies.

[LegendoftheSkies]

I doubt Non Grata would complain if OBR DoW'd them for it. In fact, something tells me that they would enjoy that.

[Monster]

That much is obvious, but the thing is, they won't in all likelihood.

[Vol Navy]

See lots of posting about Hime's warchest. I seem to recall her posting that she didn't make huge money per day when she was up around 30k+ infra before the last rogue attack against her, I also imagine she spent a staggering amount of money getting that much infra built in the first place. She has also had to rebuild a few times from those rogue attacks. The former UMB attacking her have clearly never really fought for the most part in their existence so have never had to undergo any large scale rebuilding. So it makes sense they'd have giant war chests. I mean Yuri is closing in on 5.5 years old (more than a year older than Hime) with fewer than a million casualties and I'd guess probably 100k+ of those are from the initial attacks and defending attacks from this war.

[Monster]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1333349257' post='2947218']
See lots of posting about Hime's warchest. I seem to recall her posting that she didn't make huge money per day when she was up around 30k+ infra before the last rogue attack against her, I also imagine she spent a staggering amount of money getting that much infra built in the first place. She has also had to rebuild a few times from those rogue attacks. The former UMB attacking her have clearly never really fought for the most part in their existence so have never had to undergo any large scale rebuilding. So it makes sense they'd have giant war chests. I mean Yuri is closing in on 5.5 years old (more than a year older than Hime) with fewer than a million casualties and I'd guess probably 100k+ of those are from the initial attacks and defending attacks from this war.
[/quote]

Sarin wasn't Umb and Methax has tons of casualties and a bigger warchest than Hime. In addition, he is bigger than Yuri and has 8 mil+, so the whole never fought = NS +warchest line doesn't work here.

There is no point in general in buying exorbitant amounts of infra other than to fluff your NS.

oinkoink12 is bigger than Yuri as well with 13m casualties.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Roquentin

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1333349416' post='2947219']
Sarin wasn't Umb and Methax has tons of casualties and a bigger warchest than Hime. In addition, he is bigger than Yuri and has 8 mil+, so the whole never fought = NS +warchest line doesn't work here.

There is no point in general in buying exorbitant amounts of infra other than to fluff your NS.

oinkoink12 is bigger than Yuri as well with 13m casualties.
[/quote]


None of them ever had 30k+ infra either. I didn't say it was wise or great for a WC to have that much infra, just explaining why her WC isn't bigger.

Oink has massive casualties from lots of raiding. Which is why Oink has 73,000 miles of land. If Oink has all that and a 16+ billion dollar war chest he's even more awesome than I thought.

[Monster]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1333351169' post='2947223']
None of them ever had 30k+ infra either. I didn't say it was wise or great for a WC to have that much infra, just explaining why her WC isn't bigger.

Oink has massive casualties from lots of raiding. Which is why Oink has 73,000 miles of land. If Oink has all that and a 16+ billion dollar war chest he's even more awesome than I thought.
[/quote]

Fair enough.


Not 16 billion most likely and Yuri's wasn't the best when he joined Umbrella. I forget exactly how much, but it couldn't have been more than 4b.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Roquentin

[jerdge]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1333321931' post='2946978']Tell me more about a GPA member's idea of fun[/quote]
I don't know about a GPA member in general, I know about me.
If I decided it was time for me to leave CN, if I had still a bit of time to spend on the war system (and if I wanted to go with it for my endgame strategy), I'd look for people willing to fight with me and I'd do some war games with them. Or I could switch my trades to secret and then sit on none (or on some 1 man AA) and wait for attackers. In both cases I'd be fighting (and affecting) people willing to be into it.
I already fought against a former #1, in a "regular" war, and that's enough honour for me. If I wanted to fight against another #1, anyway, I'd ask [i]her[/i] first. The reason is simple: I can have fun with or without Hime (or whoever is 1st if/when I leave) as there's plenty of other people to play with - a lot of them probably being a more challenging partner. Hime may also have other ideas for her stats, she might be preparing or she might want to be prepared for some "regular" war, she might just be lacking time right now (RL etc), she may need her stats for some RP session, etc. [b]I am here to play to have fun and that - for me - means caring that other people can have their fun as well. It's an integral part of sportsmanship, to me.[/b]

Now don't get me wrong, war is part of the game and anyone playing should be ready to get some, at times even if it wasn't their plan to do so (or they should try to play in permanent Peace Mode). My point is that wars that don't have a "make believe"/IC reason (these being alliance wars, raids/conquests etc.), but which are just based on the OOC desire to have some "fun", shouldn't be imposed upon others. There's no reason to do it to another fellow player, then why should I do so?
Then again that's my point of view and I don't claim it should be universal. I am just stating it and I claim the right to discuss the (lack of) sportsmanship in completely disregarding what [i]others[/i] desire for [i]their[/i] game. It's also not really that big deal either, it's just pixels after all (as I have already said).

Strange how my point of view raises all this interest, though.



[quote name='LJ Scott' timestamp='1333322599' post='2946987']Actually I would argue that people were still going rogue and doing it in fairly original ways well into late 2007/2008, potentially even into much later stages of the game. Only the simple act of going rogue against an alliance leader was really "old" by the end of 2006.

Going rogue just serves a simple and efficient endgame strategy. I imagine that most people who have decided to quit the game, and to go out with a little "fun", whether it be going rogue on an alliance, or an individual nation, really don't want to invest much more time in the game. Why, if I'm quitting anyway, would I sit around attempting to come up with creative and original ways to do so, when a simple solution such as attacking the #1 nation (Yuri), or attacking one of the furry alliances such as STA (CoUNT), exists and meets my need for one last little bit of "fun". Besides, everything has been done in the this game anyways, and if it's not been done it's been tried. There really aren't any feasible creative endgame strategies left, largely owing to how long this games been played, and how many people have chosen to exit it with one last hurrah. Going rogue is simply the classic that never gets old for the instigator, and never stops being irritating for the recipient. Which is why it's forever popular imo.[/quote]
Well, my point is that an endgame strategy which requires zero effort is not exactly a "classic", but just old. If one has the time to (properly) fight a war they could surely spend half an hour to come up with something a bit less of a cliché (like re-sending their trades in secret with a brief accompanying PM, and moving to none in the next days; like finding an alliance and a cause and attacking them with a "story" behind it - see Vladimir/GOD and that other guy against IRON, these days; like ...)
If they don't it's because they don't want to bother, not for lack of time. It's 100% legitimate, of course, just like it's 100% legitimate to discuss its merits.
You're also right that a lot has already been done/tried, but we probably agree that it would be very difficult to find some other endgame strategy that's as much overused as going rogue.



[quote name='NationRuler' timestamp='1333326408' post='2947036']So much warchest bragging in this thread. Mostly by people who will never use it. Jerdge, what does a GPA member do with $16b?[/quote]
Hey I didn't say that I have 16b (I don't), I said that I wouldn't go rogue if I had it.
A GPA member with a 16b treasury gets praised by the MoD (me) and criticized by the MoE (nik), probably with walls of text of increasing length, while everyone else in the alliance continue to do their forum games or endless discussion, caring very little about the whole thing.



[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1333328537' post='2947068']Neutrality is indifference, sorry.[/quote]
Neutrality is not taking sides other than your own, but that doesn't prevent caring about what happens.

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1333329936' post='2947096']Here's a good quote about Hime's nation bio.
[quote]The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis.
Dante Alighieri[/quote][/quote]
[list][*]OOC: What is this moral crisis you're talking of? (Also props for quoting Dante! )
[*]IC: AFAIK it's since the dawn of CN that sides politically/military weaker accuse the neutrals of allowing "evil" to endure. I'll have you know that for a lot of neutrals there's only one kind of evil, and that is "whatever can threaten [i]them[/i]". Everything else is simply something they [i]might[/i] be interested in knowing about, but which they don't desire to be involved into.
Trying to convince neutrals to embrace one's cause [i]never[/i] worked on a large scale, and there's no reason to think that it will [i]ever[/i] work.
[i](Note that I am no official spokesperson for "the" neutrals: I am just a vocal/annoying neutral... )[/i][/list]

Edited April 2, 2012 by jerdge

[Monster]

The truth of the matter is a lot of neutrals are critical of things going on, and I have no underlying hope of trying to convince them, because for the most part, that's been proven to be a fool's errand. Doesn't mean I can't criticize what is a stupid stance that is also counterproductive in the long-term and ruins the environment in which neutrals and independents are able to thrive.

In order to maintain a balance of power the independents should intervene when the potential for a group to gain overwhelming power is there i.e. picking off all potential opposition.

for the moral crisis: On Civility detailed a lot of it. The problem is it's just words that are not neutral, but no potential action.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Roquentin

[Yuri Baddic]

[quote]Your nuclear attack against Dulra was a success however their fallout shelters reduced some of the damage caused by this attack. Dulra lost 84409 defending soldiers, 0 defending tanks, 0 cruise missiles, 925.534 miles of land, 308.51 technology, 925.53 infrastructure, 50% of their aircraft, and 18% of their nuclear vulnerable navy force. In addition to these losses Dulra will experience several days of economic devastation in their nation. [/quote]

Now to wait to be belittled.

[jerdge]

Ah OK. On Civilty was about OOC stuff that has been addressed more than enough IMHO. I will restrain from [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=109250"]repeating myself[/url].

[size=1]EDIT: this is for Roq, of course.[/size]

Edited April 2, 2012 by jerdge

[Monster]

[quote name='jerdge' timestamp='1333359143' post='2947238']
Ah OK. On Civilty was about OOC stuff that has been addressed more than enough IMHO. I will restrain from [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=109250"]repeating myself[/url].
[/quote]

Outside of these forums, the distinction does not exist and military might is what determines what kind of conduct is acceptable. No amount of argument on these will make anyone change their stance. The threat of military reprisal will.

Here goes: there once was an alliance that liked to make fun of a certain person's medical condition.

One day, the King of the alliance determined that their members continuing to do so would be unpragmatic and potentially costly politically and they were ordered to shut up about it because they didn't want to get rolled.

Eventually, the alliance lost its pariah status,gained vast amounts of power, and was more open culturally and started going back to practices similar to the ones before that decision.


Simple enough? Bonus points if you can figure it out.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Roquentin

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1333303591' post='2946815']
With a WRC, every 5K tech means an extra 100% damage over normal. 45K tech would mean a 900% increase. It will thus be on the order of 1500 land, 1500 infra, and 500 tech. Of course, it also bears consideration that every nuke sent against Dulra will be killing real-life money.
[/quote]
If Hime Themis is also donating because she wants to donate the money to keep the game going and not just for stats, then no real life money is being killed.

Enjoy the war I suppose. I don't support going rogue on OBR, but they can handle it. This is a good chance for Dulra to boost their casualties stat, so its not lacking compared to the rest.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Methrage

[Monster]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1333359449' post='2947241']
If Hime Themis is also donating because he wants to donate the money to keep the game going and not just for stats, then no real life money is being killed.

Enjoy the war I suppose. I don't support going rogue on OBR, but they can handle it. This is a good chance for Dulra to boost their casualties stat, so its not lacking compared to the rest.
[/quote]

Hime doesn't care about the rl money going to her nation. That's why she didn't pursue the lapsed payments for her donations.

[jerdge]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1333359266' post='2947239']Outside of these forums, the distinction does not exist and military might is what determines what kind of conduct is acceptable. No amount of argument on these will make anyone change their stance. The threat of military reprisal will.[/quote]
If you read what I wrote you already know that I fundamentally disagree with you. Cultural issues are addressed with cultural action; "military" action on pixels might affect the contingent manifestations, but they don't tackle the meat of the problem (which is why "military" actions on pixels never had a permanent effect, by the way).
You also underestimate the capability of humans to understand and change. Some already did it for that specific incident.

This is anyway [i]way[/i] off topic: if you wish to continue to discuss it I ask you to please do so with another thread, or to carry it on via PM, thanks.


On topic: that was a powerful nuke as well, Yuri. The idea that Hime's are much more powerful is really scary...

[Monster]

Didn't she post her damage reports when she fought a rogue before? Can't be too much more than it was then.

Oh, I see arexes has entered the fray. Heh. It's CoUNT all over again.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Roquentin

[Beauty]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1333273719' post='2946636']
While Hime getting rogued is meh, it is good to see Umbrella lose stats.
[/quote]


Roquentin, you always know the exact thing im thinking.....



Also, I saw you Nuked, Yuri.... Post the nuke here... PLEASE?

[Jeric76000]

when your number 1 you always expect attacks... I'm sure Hime will be just fine

[Spaarlaamp]

[quote name='Jeric76000' timestamp='1333368643' post='2947274']
when your number 1 you always expect attacks... I'm sure Hime will be just fine
[/quote]
Actually, when dulra gets knocked back to 11k infra, he'd have to spend the full 3.6 bil WC to get back to 21k infra again. Wouldn't be wise for him to get back to that level with no WC at all.

[MrMuz]

I wonder if it works out tech raiding someone leaving the game. "CM = nuke" is no longer a deterrent

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1333358798' post='2947234']
In order to maintain a balance of power the independents should intervene when the potential for a group to gain overwhelming power is there i.e. picking off all potential opposition.[/quote]

It's interesting, because what you propose is what OBR actually did. They're pretty near unique in that respect. I would think you would give them some slack for that alone.

I actually find myself agreeing with Jerdge on a lot here. I prefer to fight people that have actually given me a grievance and a reason, or else people that want to do it OOC and have fun with it, and declaring on Dulra simply for being number 1 strikes me as rather gauche. I hope OBR is having fun.

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Yuri Baddic' timestamp='1333359005' post='2947237']
Now to wait to be belittled.
[/quote]

There goes approximately $300.

[Hydian Way]

Gentlepersons,
I am deeply saddened by thine rampant lust for the blood shown here today. Truly is this what Digiterra....

...never mind I can't make myself do it. Best of luck to some of the parties involved. Be interesting to see how long it takes OBR to counter them.