Beefspari Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Prodigal Moon' timestamp='1330390751' post='2929582'] Not "GOONS couldn't handle the heat of one nation." The [i]attacker [/i]apparently couldn't handle the heat of one nation. As if MONGOLS poses any threat to your alliance as a whole. You'll probably end up with spoils and reps that outweigh any damage, and have a nice large-scale raid out of it. [/quote] There were three raiders. But anyway, it's not about if MONGOLS poses a threat. Do you think we believed NPL posed a threat when they were recruiting our raid targets? It's about policy and principle. It's about not letting people step on our alliance. And there's no way we're going to send the message that you can aid people we're at war with and get away with it. [img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeris-_-L3.jpg[/img] [quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1330391588' post='2929597'] If you took my comments as "raiding is wrong, so there!" then I seriously call into question your comprehension skills. [/quote] Obviously on some level you at least begrudgingly accept raids. The disconnect seems to be that you don't consider a raid a war. For that reason you believe it's okay for people to aid people you're raiding and do nothing about it. That's fine if that's your policy, but we happily disagree. I'm curious if this extends to all wars or just raids. And what, exactly, separates the two. [right][img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerisdisR10.jpg[/img][/right] [quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1330395371' post='2929640'] GOONS is "defending" its members who raided because the raid went bad (i.e. the raided party received financial and military aid to help it fight back against the GOONS raiders). They are bailing out the nations that raided by attempting to cut off assistance to the raided nation. If this is not assisting a nation that raided then I'm not sure what would consitute assistance to a raider.[/quote] This has nothing to do with the raided nation. Or the raiders. This isn't a war about a raid, it's a war about aiding people. If this was about "bailing out" the nations having problems, we could've just filled all their slots with 3m/2000s. But it's not about that, and saying it is is completely ludicrous. You really think we DoWed on a 22-nation alliance just because a raid wasn't going well? Or that we'd rather attack an alliance than just, I don't know, send aid? We did this to cut off aid flow? Really? [i][b]Really?[/b][/i] [img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerisfffX3.jpg[/img] [quote name='Prodigal Moon' timestamp='1330395945' post='2929646'] You say you don't allow "war-aid" to those "we" are at war with. Does that mean that every GOONS raid is considered to be an alliance-wide war against the target? [/quote] Yes, because we usually raid in packs anyway, and anyone we raid is solo or in a small AA. And if we're raiding one we'll probably raid them all. I fail to see where the line between raid and war is. Unless you're suggesting we just go around raiding 25+ nation AAs for fun. Because I can assure you if we did, they'd consider it an alliance war. Are you saying you think it'd be okay for us to raid anyone we wanted if we just don't call it an alliance war? [right][img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeris-_-R10.jpg[/img][/right] Edited February 28, 2012 by Beefspari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattski133 Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1330393641' post='2929622'] Yeah, because helping out an innocent victim of your raiders is "[b]walking all over you[/b]". Damn those good samaritans walking all over those thugs beating down on the little old lady. Should teach them !@#$%^&* a lesson! Songs and poems shall be written about your bravery. [/quote] Helping the target is not walking over us. It's the stuff after that I was referring to. Are you suggesting that if a nation of yours tech raided an approved nation via your charter, and GOONS aid bombed that nation with money, technology, and soldiers, you'd be cool with it? Or is this strictly case by case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygaland Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1330396191' post='2929649'] Helping the target is not walking over us. It's the stuff after that I was referring to. Are you suggesting that if a nation of yours tech raided an approved nation via your charter, and GOONS aid bombed that nation with money, technology, and soldiers, you'd be cool with it? Or is this strictly case by case? [/quote] I'd be cool with it. As I said, STA members raid at their own risk. I can't make it any clearer than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Jake Liebenow' timestamp='1330395785' post='2929644'] Ride on, GONOS. I see that Tyga is still butthurt at his own loss, and is projecting. Sounds like this is on pace to be a 50-pager, guys. All it needs is Schatt and it's a real party. [/quote] What can I say, I'm a people pleaser: [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1330359400' post='2929296'] GOONS aided a former-GOONS nuke rogue who was at war with me not once, but twice, and refused any sort of serious compensation because they can't be assed to make sure every one of their retard members isn't aiding nuke rogues. This while demanding $20,000,000 from CoJ and $90,000,000 from NSO when Methrage tricked one of our members into a techdeal, resulting in the satirical work "[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=91902"]GOONS Owes Me $90,000,000[/url]", which, not surprisingly, flew right over the heads of said retard horde as a actual demand for $90,000,000. [/quote] Edited February 28, 2012 by Schattenmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beefspari Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1330396387' post='2929652'] I'd be cool with it. As I said, STA members raid at their own risk. I can't make it any clearer than that. [/quote] We don't share the same views on raid vs war as you and that's all there is to it. A raid is a war, and is held to the same standards as any war. Which includes third parties not getting involved. [img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerisdisL11.jpg[/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardonic Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1330395572' post='2929642'] It was a raid. That raid went pear-shaped and now GOONS come rushing in to assist their raider. [/quote] This is what you're not getting, at no point is any of this "to assist the raider". We're bailing out nobody. We're launching a war to punish them. [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1330396418' post='2929653'] What can I say, I'm a people pleaser: [/quote] What's wrong Schatt, was one thread not enough of a platform for you to make this intellectually dishonest argument? I may as well quote myself: [quote] Sorry, you don't get to complain after the fact if the rep amount wasn't large enough if you didn't even try to negotiate the amount during the incident. You simply dropped it. Additionally, the methrage rate is a special rate and not a typical rate. [/quote] We are not asking for 90m in this case because it is not a high level EoG case anyway, so your point is even more bunk. We charge varying rates for varying crimes against GOONS. Edited February 28, 2012 by Sardonic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygaland Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1330396069' post='2929648'] Obviously on some level you at least begrudgingly accept raids. The disconnect seems to be that you don't consider a raid a war. For that reason you believe it's okay for people to aid people you're raiding and do nothing about it. That's fine if that's your policy, but we happily disagree. I'm curious if this extends to all wars or just raids. And what, exactly, separates the two. [/quote] I accept that raiding is part of life her in the Cyberverse. I consider a raid an act of aggression from one nation on another for the purpose of stealing land/tech/cash and to practise or familiarise themelves with how war works. I do not see it as an alliance thing, I see it as an individual thing with individual consequences. [quote] This has nothing to do with the raided nation. Or the raiders. This isn't a war about a raid, it's a war about aiding people. If this was about "bailing out" the nations having problems, we could've just filled all their slots with 3m/2000s. But it's not about that, and saying it is is completely ludicrous. You really think we DoWed on a 22-nation alliance just because a raid wasn't going well? Or that we'd rather attack an alliance than just, I don't know, send aid? We did this to cut off aid flow? Really? [i][b]Really?[/b][/i] [/quote] It has everything to do wit the raided nation and the raider. If not for those two elements the situation would not have been created. As far as I'm aware GOONS as an alliance had not declared war on the raided nation so I don't see how you claim that MONGOLS committed an act of war against you by aiding the raided nation. Now, if the nation being aided was a rogue or in an alliance war with GOONS then I would agree with your actions here. I see a glaring difference between a raid and an alliance war/rogue busting operation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygaland Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1330396474' post='2929654'] We don't share the same views on raid vs war as you and that's all there is to it. A raid is a war, and is held to the same standards as any war. Which includes third parties not getting involved. [/quote] A raid is a war when it suits you for it to be so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beefspari Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1330396745' post='2929658'] As far as I'm aware GOONS as an alliance had not declared war on the raided nation so I don't see how you claim that MONGOLS committed an act of war against you by aiding the raided nation.[/quote] Three goons hit one nation. Three MONGOLS aided that nation. MONGOLS gov condoned the action and had no intention of resolving the issue. This is not a 1 vs 1 scenario. This is the policies of GOONs vs the policies of MONGOLS. Is this really so hard to understand? [img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeriso_oL8.jpg[/img] [quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1330396855' post='2929659'] A raid is a war when it suits you for it to be so. [/quote] Historically, when has GOONs made a distinction between a raid and a war? As I said we usually raid in packs. And if one of our people messes up and raids someone inappropriately, people come to GOONs gov. Because it's an alliance issue. And always has been. Everything you're saying you're pulling from literally nowhere. [right][img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerisfffR9.jpg[/img][/right] Edited February 28, 2012 by Beefspari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygaland Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330396540' post='2929657'] This is what you're not getting, at no point is any of this "to assist the raider". We're bailing out nobody. We're launching a war to punish them. [/quote] If you didn't care about the raider then the aid should not have bothered you at all. Afterall, the only nation it was affecting was the raiding nation. The facts are that you didn't like a raid target getting a leg-up so you decided to declare on those helping them out. It is all about the raid and all about ensuring your future raids remain one-sided beatdowns for your members. I don't begrudge you feeling that way but I think it is pissweak of you to do what you have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal Moon Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1330396069' post='2929648']Yes, because we usually raid in packs anyway, and anyone we raid is solo or in a small AA. And if we're raiding one we'll probably raid them all. I fail to see where the line between raid and war is. Unless you're suggesting we just go around raiding 25+ nation AAs for fun. Because I can assure you if we did, they'd consider it an alliance war. Are you saying you think it'd be okay for us to raid anyone we wanted if we just don't call it an alliance war? [right][img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeris-_-R10.jpg[/img][/right] [/quote] I'm just trying to understand the complete disconnect between VN's comment "We do not provide assistance to nations conducting raids," and the further evidence that you "usually raid in packs," consider the full alliance to be at war with the target, and will attack en mass if anyone assists the target with a small sum of cash and soldiers. Those are all very sensible steps to take if you're concerned about your nations taking any damage or dealing with the most token of interference from a 3rd party. (Just as calling in allies is a sensible step to take against rogues if you're concerned about taking too much damage from someone who can actually put up a fight). The only problem is that your members like to claim that they enjoy war, when in fact, they are cowards who enjoy pillaging under very controlled, well-protected circumstances. There's a big difference. If you were to simply acknowledge your extreme cowardice and desire to avoid damage in your pillaging of innocent nations, I am sure that most of these discussions could be avoided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D34th Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1330396855' post='2929659'] A raid is a war when it suits you for it to be so. [/quote] Double standards in my CN? No way sir! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygaland Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1330396970' post='2929661'] Three goons hit one nation. Three MONGOLS aided that nation. MONGOLS gov condoned the action and had no intention of resolving the issue. This is not a 1 vs 1 scenario. This is the policies of GOONs vs the policies of MONGOLS. Is this really so hard to understand? [/quote] I don't think this helps your argument quite as you'd hoped. So, 3 GOONS nations beatdown on a single nation and GOONS throws the toys out of the pram when that one nation gets some aid from MONGOLS? Even more pissweak than I thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardonic Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1330397038' post='2929663'] If you didn't care about the raider then the aid should not have bothered you at all. Afterall, the only nation it was affecting was the raiding nation. The facts are that you didn't like a raid target getting a leg-up so you decided to declare on those helping them out. It is all about the raid and all about ensuring your future raids remain one-sided beatdowns for your members. I don't begrudge you feeling that way but I think it is pissweak of you to do what you have. [/quote] It's very simple. Another alliance aided somebody at war with one of our members. That the conflict between the initial nations was a raid is irrelevant. There is nothing 'pissweak' about pushing an alliance's sovereignty to the fullest extent, and defending it with all available force. All threats to the alliance will be dealt with. I see you're obviously too set on the old, outdated ways, so I'll leave you to it, and advise my fellows to do the same. Edited February 28, 2012 by Sardonic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattski133 Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1330396970' post='2929661'] Three goons hit one nation. Three MONGOLS aided that nation. MONGOLS gov condoned the action and had no intention of resolving the issue. This is not a 1 vs 1 scenario. This is the policies of GOONs vs the policies of MONGOLS. [b]Is this really so hard to understand?[/b][img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeriso_oL8.jpg[/img] Historically, when has GOONs made a distinction between a raid and a war? As I said we usually raid in packs. And if one of our people messes up and raids someone inappropriately, people come to GOONs gov. Because it's an alliance issue. And always has been. Everything you're saying you're pulling from literally nowhere. [right][img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerisfffR9.jpg[/img][/right] [/quote] Yes. Because the policies of STA are different and we should change ours to meet or exceed them. And he we are, writing walls of text when a simple "I don't like you" would have sufficed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimm Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 Who needs to be consistent when you can get away with being a bully instead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beefspari Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1330397038' post='2929663'] The facts are that you didn't like a raid target getting a leg-up so you decided to declare on those helping them out. It is all about the raid and all about ensuring your future raids remain one-sided beatdowns for your members.[/quote] No, it's all about not sending the message that it's all right to aid people we're at war with. That has always been our stance and it's not about to change because you believe raids are different than wars and should be held to different standards. [img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerisdisL6.jpg[/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death from above 82 Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1330396970' post='2929661'] Three goons hit one nation. Three MONGOLS aided that nation. MONGOLS gov condoned the action and had no intention of resolving the issue. This is not a 1 vs 1 scenario. This is the policies of GOONs vs the policies of MONGOLS. Is this really so hard to understand? [img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeriso_oL8.jpg[/img] [/quote] This is not true- 3 nation did send aid- 1 was excepted and the other 2 were canceled- after GOons entered negotiations- couldn't agree on amount. next we went to your mercy board. Still no conclusion- the whole time getting taunts from your quick witted bullying mouths. Really was there any other option Edited February 28, 2012 by death from above 82 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beefspari Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='death from above 82' timestamp='1330397431' post='2929673'] This is not true- 3 nation did send aid- 1 was excepted and the other 2 were canceled- after GOons intered negotiations- couldn't agree on amount. next we went to your mercy board. Still no conclusion- the whole time getting taunts from your quick witted bullying mouths. Really was there any other option [/quote] Welcome to the mercy board. We taunt everyone there. And the resolution was entirely in your control. You guys had a money option out and were also given a timeframe. You not only rejected the offer but let the timeframe expire. It's not our fault you decided not to compensate us. You also went to the mercy board and performed poorly. I'm sorry that two options weren't enough for you. But it's also not our responsibility to make fixing your mistakes easy on you. [img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeris-_-L2.jpg[/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygaland Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330397299' post='2929668'] It's very simple. Another alliance aided somebody at war with one of our members. [/quote] No, they were an innocent nation that 3 GOONS decided to pillage. [quote] That the conflict between the initial nations was a raid is irrelevant. [/quote] I disagree, I believe this to be a pivotal point which distinguished the situation from a rogue stomping or alliance war scenario. [quote] There is nothing 'pissweak' about pushing an alliance's sovereignty to the fullest extent, and defending it with all available force. All threats to the alliance will be dealt with. I see you're obviously too set on the old, outdated ways, so I'll leave you too it, and advise my fellows to do the same. [/quote] There was no threat to your alliance other than a slightly more cashed up raid target. Yet, you claim the raid has nothing to do with it. Was the raided nation going to become a behemoth to take GOONS down or were they most likely to use the aid to defend themselves until the raids ended? I don't really see what the threat to GOONS was here. Now, I am only speaking from my old, outdated point of view, but I would not consider the aid to the raid target as a green light to aid those at war with GOONS for other reasons such as rogue wars or allince wars. But, as you say, they are my old and outdated ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygaland Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1330397319' post='2929670'] Yes. Because the policies of STA are different and we should change ours to meet or exceed them. And he we are, writing walls of text when a simple "I don't like you" would have sufficed. [/quote] Whether I like GOONS or not is irrelevant to my opinion son this incident. I do enjoy you all trying to attack me personally rather than the issue I'm descussing though. Just like old times. [quote name='trimm'] Who needs to be consistent when you can get away with being a bully instead? [/quote] Precisely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beefspari Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1330397907' post='2929678'] Precisely. [/quote] We've always been consistent on this issue. Deciding that raids aren't wars and have different rules would be the opposite of that. We've also consistently not let people aid people we're at war with. If anything this war is pure consistency. [img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeris-_-L5.jpg[/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygaland Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1330398071' post='2929679'] We've always been consistent on this issue. Deciding that raids aren't wars and have different rules would be the opposite of that. We've also consistently not let people aid people we're at war with. If anything this war is pure consistency. [/quote] So, just to clarify. GOONS will attack anyone who provides any assistance, be it financial or military, to the target of a raid but will not assist a GOONS raider at all? I just want this policy to be clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattski133 Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1330397907' post='2929678'] Whether I like GOONS or not is irrelevant to my opinions on this incident. I do enjoy you all trying to attack me personally rather than the issue I'm descussing though. Just like old times.[/quote] I didn't see anyone attacking you. I saw you attacking our policies because they are different from yours though, and you ignoring the lengths we went through to avoid this because "it shouldn't have happened in the first place". Any defense we make of our actions is disregarded immediately for this reason; the best choice is to outright ignore you because ultimately a personal attack probably WILL happen with no other road available. You're not going to win this debate, and we're not going to change your mind about OUR charter, so you sitting here blathering on about how awful this is and how your vision is more clear is just going to end in a trainwreck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beefspari Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1330400589' post='2929703'] So, just to clarify. GOONS will attack anyone who provides any assistance, be it financial or military, to the target of a raid but will not assist a GOONS raider at all? I just want this policy to be clear. [/quote] Yes. With the stipulation you understand our policy doesn't [i][b]guarantee[/b][/i] assistance but [i][b]allows for it[/b][/i]. And we're talking "Help my raid is going bad" / "Sucks for you" and not "My target just got 15m/250t/10000s from CoJ" [img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeris9_9L4.jpg[/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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