Krzyzewskiville Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Instr' timestamp='1329923124' post='2925563'] Wait, let me get this right here. MK saying mean things about people on the Internet is worse than NPO rolling alliances with fabricated CBs? [/quote] I would say so, only because at least the fabricated CBs were basically an IC way of saying "We want you destroyed to maintain our dominance." That's better, in my book, than attacking the character of the guy behind the computer for the sake of some laughs and just making someone feel bad. It's different in my book. That's not to say that some of the things that NPO did weren't as bad, but you're comparing apples and oranges. Tracking rerolls across IPs has always been a huge problem in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Chris Kaos' timestamp='1329921075' post='2925553'] Sigh, the League. It had such promise. You're bang on about the NAAC and Legion, although I still genuinely feel like GWIII was winnable. But the plan that the Legion and NAAC came up with was pretty much the worst plan I'd ever heard of, or it would be, if it hadn't been the [i]exact same plan the NAAC used in GWII[/i]. AlmightyGrub really, really f-ed the dog on that one, and because VL Empire (who was actually a good, competent battlefield commander) was Prime Minister of Legion at the time, the Legion's MoD just dumbly nodded and did whatever the NAAC wanted, despite GATO being pummeled and screaming at them that they were doing the wrong thing. And we all know what happened then. [/quote] Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the league's strategy in GWII to focus solely on NPO, which let the rest of the Initiative tackle whoever we wanted. Then in GWIII, you guys focused on everyone but NPO and they just covered and aided whoever needed it. Of course, this could be backward but I am certain both strategies were tried. Unless you're talking about using nukes of course, in which case my bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Stuart Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Instr' timestamp='1329923124' post='2925563'] Wait, let me get this right here. MK saying mean things about people on the Internet is worse than NPO rolling alliances with fabricated CBs? [/quote] Yes, it certainly is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ameris Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 Damn I remember when Xavier just got up and left leaving all of us scratching our heads. I am quite speechless at hearing this, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallen Fool Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='New Frontier' timestamp='1329887116' post='2925425']Is that you, Random? Are you in there?In what way is NPO's long history of chasing people across rerolls and digging up IPs "all in character"?[/quote]You will note he said: [quote]Eventually the NPO started down the path MK eventually went down fully[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epiphanus Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 I liked VX, this doesn't affect me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Frontier Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1329963994' post='2926050'] You will note he said: [/quote] Well yeah, if by "eventually" he meant "most of their period of dominance" and if by "started down" he meant "did worse things than" then yeah, I guess we agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Kaos Posted February 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Sir Sci' timestamp='1329931950' post='2925601'] I am still convinced that if it wasn't for Yoda and that whole "Coven of the Lost" thing, that the first GW would have been GATO and Legion's (and friends) opportunity to cut NPO down to a point where they could not have become so dominant. Sure, they would have rebuilt eventually, but that war ended far too soon. [/quote] Yoda and the Coven had nothing to do with that war or its end. The Legion and ODN cut and run on the rest of the CoaLUEtion via a backroom deal with the NPO without telling anyone else they were even negotiating. Then everyone in GATO was yelling at me to end the war, and the NAAC was about to fold as well. [quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1329956900' post='2925898'] Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the league's strategy in GWII to focus solely on NPO, which let the rest of the Initiative tackle whoever we wanted. Then in GWIII, you guys focused on everyone but NPO and they just covered and aided whoever needed it. Of course, this could be backward but I am certain both strategies were tried. Unless you're talking about using nukes of course, in which case my bad. [/quote] Actually, the idea behind both was to attack everyone except the NPO for some godforsaken reason. There were at least five or six alliances in both wars who were out of it until our side attacked them. I never followed this plan, because for one thing, we didn't have reliable lists of active members, and ended up attacking a lot of inactives. For another, attacking an alliance when they're not currently engaged is beyond stupid, unless you can overwhelm them with numbers immediately--which we could not, since we were about even in NS and overall numbers. It leaves your back end open to being attacked, so then you have 2-3 offensive wars, and 2-3 defensive wars, while most of those in the alliance you're attacking have 2-3 wars total. In GWIII it was especially bad, since the NPO was solely engaged against GATO, who was half the NPO's size at the time. Both wars were planned by the NAAC, despite many in GATO's vehement disagreement, but in GWII the top dogs in GATO were told to follow NAAC's lead by Letum (who was absent the whole war), and in GWIII we were just completely ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Truck Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1329910221' post='2925527'] How many threads on MK's forums have been created about or relating to the RL persona's of nation rulers within this realm? Any number higher than one crosses the line of what is acceptable. [/quote] OOC forum discussing OOC people in an OOC fashion: MK's contribution to ruining CN's gameplay. Meanwhile the former Hegemony attacked or enabled attacks on people because of OOC ideology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Stuart Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Mack Truck' timestamp='1329977161' post='2926303'] OOC forum discussing OOC people in an OOC fashion: MK's contribution to ruining CN's gameplay. Meanwhile the former Hegemony attacked or enabled attacks on people because of OOC ideology. [/quote] Are you seriously trying to say MK has the right to discuss any aspect of any other player's RL [i]just because you have it in an OOC forum?[/i] And again, "NPO did it first" does not make it ok. Plus, it is a crock of !@#$ argument and deems everyone who during karma fought against NPO due to NPO's "crimes" as a pack of liars. But we already knew that so meh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Truck Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1329989807' post='2926436'] Are you seriously trying to say MK has the right to discuss any aspect of any other player's RL [i]just because you have it in an OOC forum?[/i][/quote] Yes, we do have that right. Legally and philosophically, I would say. What have we done OOC that ever affected CN gameplay? That's the issue, not whether it's mean of us to discuss OOC information that just about everyone already knows (and probably talks about). [quote]And again, "NPO did it first" does not make it ok. Plus, it is a crock of !@#$ argument and deems everyone who during karma fought against NPO due to NPO's "crimes" as a pack of liars. But we already knew that so meh. [/quote] But we don't need to use the NPO to justify it, since we don't attack people for OOC reasons. We aren't as bad as previous players and alliances and Random's assertion was a mish-mash of anti-"lulz" propoganda stretching back from before MK existed and baseless accusations against us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Stuart Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Mack Truck' timestamp='1329992252' post='2926467'] Yes, we do have that right. Legally and philosophically, I would say. What have we done OOC that ever affected CN gameplay? That's the issue, not whether it's mean of us to discuss OOC information that just about everyone already knows (and probably talks about). [/quote] You have no right discussing or investigating the RL persona's of nation rulers. Common knowledge or not, just leave that side of things alone. What happens in-game stays in-game and what happens out of game stays out of game. Is it really so hard a concept to understand or do I need to make a few lulzy pics with troll faces on them for the likes of you to understand? [quote]But we don't need to use the NPO to justify it, since we don't attack people for OOC reasons. We aren't as bad as previous players and alliances and [/quote] If you don't need NPO to justify it then why does your "side" keep bringing up "NPO did it first and other AAs did it too"? [quote]Random's assertion was a mish-mash of anti-"lulz" propoganda stretching back from before MK existed and baseless accusations against us.[/quote] I love it when MK plays the victim card, reminds me of days long gone when they were in their rightful place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deth2munkies Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Mack Truck' timestamp='1329992252' post='2926467'] What have we done OOC that ever affected CN gameplay? [/quote] Two words: Biodad Kingdom. And that's just a recent example. You have no place to talk, MK was never meant to take a leadership role. That was to fall to one of the large alliances of Karma. MK has only been strong as a counterpoint, never as a maker of official policy. Unfortunately, they were all too weak and uncharismatic and such a system would collapse, hence the necessity of DH and the second war in order to maintain power. That war just served as a reminder of MK's failure and the failure of all of the other large alliances to set up an effective ruling class. Now all we have are punks who have forgotten how to actually use politics to achieve ends and instead use threats and OOC attacks. It was a simpler time before all of this !@#$, and I enjoy the reflection in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicalTrevor Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 I dont think you'll find any MK gov that miss having NPO as the bad guy. It was way more fun being the "good" people. As for the OOC talk. The faux outrage on here is getting beyond a joke now. Seriously it's so see through just give up with it all. And wrt to the OP, i was around just after GW1 and remember both, never spoke/knew them but interesting to hear news from an age so different and more exciting than now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Truck Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 [quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1330003222' post='2926552'] You have no right discussing or investigating the RL persona's of nation rulers. Common knowledge or not, just leave that side of things alone. What happens in-game stays in-game and what happens out of game stays out of game. Is it really so hard a concept to understand or do I need to make a few lulzy pics with troll faces on them for the likes of you to understand?[/quote] You don't need to give any dramatised pictures, just some real examples of our OOC actions affecting anything IC. [quote]If you don't need NPO to justify it then why does your "side" keep bringing up "NPO did it first and other AAs did it too"?[/quote] If people say we're worse than X I don't see how it's at all possible to disagree without further mentioning X. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan King Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Chris Kaos' timestamp='1329839261' post='2925137'] 3. At this point, VX had served two consecutive terms as AC and couldn't run for a third, so he went for Congress and became Speaker. For those of you who don't know anything about GATO's governmental system, Congress is the legislative body, and from within their ranks, they elect a Speaker, who is first among equals and the general administrator of Congress. VX took it further than that, though, and pushed the limits of what he could do by inserting himself into the peace negotiations, and took a hardline approach with the NPO's negotiators, while Kevlar (the AC at the time), wanted to go a different route. The end result was that the NPO ridiculed him and essentially destroyed his name, and he decided to leave CN after this because the NPO had ruined his fun. That was basically NPO standard operating procedure back then. They delighted in ruining people and alliances. They had no qualms about doing anything in order to win, and there were a lot of people who tried to be genuinely honest and upstanding in CN who just couldn't keep up with the NPO's practices. For those of you who haven't been around long than, let's say, a few months leading up to Karma, you really can't understand how bad they were. MK and friends have tried to be villains, but there's just nothing like vintage NPO villainry. [/quote] I hate to use the "you don't know because you weren't there," but in fact it is appropriate in this case. You were inactive for much of the time after GW3 and didn't see what happened in Cyber Nations after that war and especially after Karma. I agree with you that the NPO were (and probably still would be) the best (or worst depending on your position) when it came to [b][i]IC[/i][/b] shunning. If a person got on their bad side, s/he would find it extremely difficult to get off. NPO was very good about tracking people across rerolls and threatening other alliances that knowingly or unknowing helped those people out. It was not uncommon to have players disappear from the game when faced with a Pacifican PZI. Many other alliances implemented the Pacifican methods and anger about PZIs was one of the main rallying points for Karma. However, there is one very important difference between the methods used by the NPO and those used by the ruling coalition today (PB, DH, SF): NPO confined it's actions to [i][b]In Character/Game Related[/b][/i] issues. Sure, they could be relentless when they were going after people in the game but if something wasn't game related (wasn't an off site forum email or IP, IRC host mask, IRC registration email), they wouldn't go after it. They did their utmost to get people to either meet their demands or quit the game but once they did that, they left them alone. There was no Facebook stalking, blog bombing, or non game related website hacking. Many Pacificans were and are friends in other games or on the personal out of game level with the people they were IC trying to destroy. They would hound people day and night on the game and on IRC but outside of that, they left them alone. Contrast this with the debacles that we have seen in the years since Karma. Although there are alliances on all sides that have done it, the DH/PB alliances in particular have brought a style of fighting to the game that doesn't stop at the In Character/Game Related level. They have used what they know about a person's ingame persona (emails, IP addresses, etc) to stalk and harass that person in their everyday life. One particularly glaring example of this happened last month when two players had a personal tragedy and asked the community for help. Although most of the members of the community were supportive or at least indifferent, a select few from DH/PB alliances took it upon themselves to contact the family and then assisted a member of the family who didn't like the two community members in question with harassing them in their personal lives (on Facebook and in person) and in the game. This was only the most recent example and there have been other cases that didn't reach this venue where the members of certain alliances created threads on their offsite forums devoted to stalking and harassing CN players outside of the game. Of course, the DH and PB haven't been the only groups doing this as Xiph was also stalked and harassed for his non game related activities but the overwhelming number of the instances that have reached public notice have been perpetrated by people in the DH/PB sphere of influence. Of course, this type of behavior is nothing new but it seems to have come from a certain group of people who are in the DH/PB sphere now. Moo Cows with Guns had to take his personal blog - which had nothing to do with Cyber Nations - down in 2007 because people who didn't like him in the game were posting inappropriate content on it. The Unjust War ended when many members of the Unjust Highway surrendered after one of their allies harassed a member of NPO's side over a personal medical issue and bombed these forums with that information. Many of the people who were involved with or friends with the people that did these things are now in DH/PB now so it's not surprising that that's a hot spot for that kind of conduct. So on the subject of Vincent Xander, I don't doubt that NPO and friends hounded him in the game to the point where he just decided to quit. But they probably didn't take it outside the game, offsite alliance forums, or IRC, and harass him on Facebook or other non CN related websites. They were too professional for that and respected the difference between his ingame and real life persona. PZI/EZI is a horrible and cruel thing to do to a person but it only affects them here. What DH/PB are doing is far worse. Edited February 24, 2012 by Duncan King Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironfist Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 [quote name='Instr' timestamp='1329923124' post='2925563'] Wait, let me get this right here. MK saying mean things about people on the Internet is worse than NPO rolling alliances with fabricated CBs? [/quote] One of them is counter-productive to the game and instils an immature "playground" atmosphere. The other was completely in-character, despite being a "bad guy" move. One is not helping anything and making the forums tiresome to visit. The other helped everyone identify the (again) in-character enemy. One lead to the most tedious era of the game. The other lead to the (unanimously agreed upon) best era of the game. Yes. It's worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Truck Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 [quote name='Ironfist' timestamp='1330132013' post='2927793'] One lead to the most tedious era of the game. The other lead to the (unanimously agreed upon) best era of the game. [/quote] Did anyone who wasn't involved actually enjoy seeing GATO and Legion etc. rolled by the NPO for ridiculous reasons [i]again[/i]? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironfist Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 [quote name='Mack Truck' timestamp='1330155789' post='2928013'] Did anyone who wasn't involved actually enjoy seeing GATO and Legion etc. rolled by the NPO for ridiculous reasons [i]again[/i]? [/quote] You're picking specific moments. Most people here seem to have enjoyed that [b]period[/b] more than this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potato Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 [quote name='Ironfist' timestamp='1330177157' post='2928111'] You're picking specific moments. Most people here seem to have enjoyed that [b]period[/b] more than this one. [/quote] It's [i]always[/i] better in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Truck Posted February 26, 2012 Report Share Posted February 26, 2012 [quote name='Ironfist' timestamp='1330177157' post='2928111'] You're picking specific moments. Most people here seem to have enjoyed that [b]period[/b] more than this one. [/quote] My intention was to get across the utterly one-sided, banal nature of that era. People rightly complained about it frequently at the time. It's only halcyon tinted nostalgia-vision that makes people suggest otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironfist Posted February 26, 2012 Report Share Posted February 26, 2012 [quote name='potato' timestamp='1330197135' post='2928205'] It's [i]always[/i] better in the past. [/quote] I started playing in late '08, so I've no clue. If it wasn't, make all the older players stop saying it was Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shahenshah Posted February 26, 2012 Report Share Posted February 26, 2012 UjW was the best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafael Nadal Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 (edited) Using ip's and chasing across re-rolls is now considered ENTIRELY IC? Dear god though, should MK poke fun at people on our own boards...WORSE THAN NPO. What a joke. Edited February 27, 2012 by Rafael Nadal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironfist Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 [quote name='Rafael Nadal' timestamp='1330325593' post='2929122'] Using ip's and chasing across re-rolls is now considered ENTIRELY IC? Dear god though, should MK poke fun at people on our own boards...WORSE THAN NPO. What a joke. [/quote] [i]Is[/i] it just your own boards, though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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