Grenval was Vincent Xander

[hammer]

I remember being very indignant of it all

// Ah, newbie naivety, back in the day

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Ivanelterrible' timestamp='1329805255' post='2925017']
Now that's a name I haven't thought about in years.
[/quote]

You're back?

[Mogar]

LUE's DoW for GW3 will seriously be the greatest thread ever posted in this game.

[kerschbs]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1329870399' post='2925313']
You're back?
[/quote]

Damn, I was hoping no one would notice him.

I volunteered to fight him when he rogued GATO, but got turned down. The rest is history

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1329870916' post='2925319']
LUE's DoW for GW3 will seriously be the greatest thread ever posted in this game.
[/quote]

PC's going away thread you mean.

[RandomInterrupt]

[quote name='Chris Kaos' timestamp='1329839261' post='2925137']That was basically NPO standard operating procedure back then. They delighted in ruining people and alliances. They had no qualms about doing anything in order to win, and there were a lot of people who tried to be genuinely honest and upstanding in CN who just couldn't keep up with the NPO's practices. For those of you who haven't been around long than, let's say, a few months leading up to Karma, you really can't understand how bad they were. MK and friends have tried to be villains, but there's just nothing like vintage NPO villainry.
[/quote]
I basically agree with you, but there is one main difference. The NPO at its worst was pretty bad, and was everything you said above, but it was entirely in character. The NPO were out to win this game, and they were going to do it any way possible. However I feel that their record was pretty solid in terms of keeping everything in character. The villains you mention now, the MKs and such, are fully okay with bringing OOC issues into the game as well as utilizing OOC harassment. Folks like Ivan and Dilber, Musso and everyone else, they wouldn't have even considered OOC harassment. That's why a lot of us were okay with being "the bad guys" back then. I was okay with being a "bad guy" when it meant I declared wars on people I didn't like in ways that people didn't like. I am not okay with things like harassment, blatant rules violations, etc.

Eventually the NPO started down the path MK eventually went down fully, they just didn't get a chance to fully embrace it before Karma happened. So basically, in my opinion, the NPO was a far worse villain in the realm of IC (as was their intention largely), but MK is a far worse villain in terms of harming the actual gameplay (and people's personal lives).

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='RandomInterrupt' timestamp='1329885622' post='2925412']
I basically agree with you, but there is one main difference. The NPO at its worst was pretty bad, and was everything you said above, but it was entirely in character. The NPO were out to win this game, and they were going to do it any way possible. However I feel that their record was pretty solid in terms of keeping everything in character. The villains you mention now, the MKs and such, are fully okay with bringing OOC issues into the game as well as utilizing OOC harassment. Folks like Ivan and Dilber, Musso and everyone else, they wouldn't have even considered OOC harassment. That's why a lot of us were okay with being "the bad guys" back then. I was okay with being a "bad guy" when it meant I declared wars on people I didn't like in ways that people didn't like. I am not okay with things like harassment, blatant rules violations, etc.

Eventually the NPO started down the path MK eventually went down fully, they just didn't get a chance to fully embrace it before Karma happened. So basically, in my opinion, the NPO was a far worse villain in the realm of IC (as was their intention largely), but MK is a far worse villain in terms of harming the actual gameplay (and people's personal lives).
[/quote]

This guy nailed it.

[Mogar]

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1329879728' post='2925382']
PC's going away thread you mean.
[/quote]
as an ex CDSer, I didn't like anything PC did.

[New Frontier]

[quote name='RandomInterrupt' timestamp='1329885622' post='2925412']
I basically agree with you, but there is one main difference. The NPO at its worst was pretty bad, and was everything you said above, but it was entirely in character. The NPO were out to win this game, and they were going to do it any way possible. However I feel that their record was pretty solid in terms of keeping everything in character. The villains you mention now, the MKs and such, are fully okay with bringing OOC issues into the game as well as utilizing OOC harassment. Folks like Ivan and Dilber, Musso and everyone else, they wouldn't have even considered OOC harassment. That's why a lot of us were okay with being "the bad guys" back then. I was okay with being a "bad guy" when it meant I declared wars on people I didn't like in ways that people didn't like. I am not okay with things like harassment, blatant rules violations, etc.

Eventually the NPO started down the path MK eventually went down fully, they just didn't get a chance to fully embrace it before Karma happened. So basically, in my opinion, the NPO was a far worse villain in the realm of IC (as was their intention largely), but MK is a far worse villain in terms of harming the actual gameplay (and people's personal lives).
[/quote]
Is that you, Random? Are you in there?

In what way is NPO's long history of chasing people across rerolls and digging up IPs "all in character"?

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

That is an interesting piece of history.

[LordDarknessOfLight]

[quote name='RandomInterrupt' timestamp='1329885622' post='2925412']
I basically agree with you, but there is one main difference. The NPO at its worst was pretty bad, and was everything you said above, but it was entirely in character. The NPO were out to win this game, and they were going to do it any way possible. However I feel that their record was pretty solid in terms of keeping everything in character. The villains you mention now, the MKs and such, are fully okay with bringing OOC issues into the game as well as utilizing OOC harassment. Folks like Ivan and Dilber, Musso and everyone else, they wouldn't have even considered OOC harassment. That's why a lot of us were okay with being "the bad guys" back then. I was okay with being a "bad guy" when it meant I declared wars on people I didn't like in ways that people didn't like. I am not okay with things like harassment, blatant rules violations, etc.

Eventually the NPO started down the path MK eventually went down fully, they just didn't get a chance to fully embrace it before Karma happened. So basically, in my opinion, the NPO was a far worse villain in the realm of IC (as was their intention largely), but MK is a far worse villain in terms of harming the actual gameplay (and people's personal lives).
[/quote]
Agreed, you nailed it Random.

[Ironfist]

[quote name='RandomInterrupt' timestamp='1329885622' post='2925412']
I basically agree with you, but there is one main difference. The NPO at its worst was pretty bad, and was everything you said above, but it was entirely in character. The NPO were out to win this game, and they were going to do it any way possible. However I feel that their record was pretty solid in terms of keeping everything in character. The villains you mention now, the MKs and such, are fully okay with bringing OOC issues into the game as well as utilizing OOC harassment. Folks like Ivan and Dilber, Musso and everyone else, they wouldn't have even considered OOC harassment. That's why a lot of us were okay with being "the bad guys" back then. I was okay with being a "bad guy" when it meant I declared wars on people I didn't like in ways that people didn't like. I am not okay with things like harassment, blatant rules violations, etc.

Eventually the NPO started down the path MK eventually went down fully, they just didn't get a chance to fully embrace it before Karma happened. So basically, in my opinion, the NPO was a far worse villain in the realm of IC (as was their intention largely), but MK is a far worse villain in terms of harming the actual gameplay (and people's personal lives).
[/quote]

Funny how one post can sum up the game better than a thousand 'why is the game dying?' threads.

[Sir Sci]

I love nostalgia threads. So many people I haven't seen in so long.

[Mack Truck]

[quote name='RandomInterrupt' timestamp='1329885622' post='2925412']
I basically agree with you, but there is one main difference. The NPO at its worst was pretty bad, and was everything you said above, but it was entirely in character. The NPO were out to win this game, and they were going to do it any way possible. However I feel that their record was pretty solid in terms of keeping everything in character. The villains you mention now, the MKs and such, are fully okay with bringing OOC issues into the game as well as utilizing OOC harassment. Folks like Ivan and Dilber, Musso and everyone else, they wouldn't have even considered OOC harassment. That's why a lot of us were okay with being "the bad guys" back then. I was okay with being a "bad guy" when it meant I declared wars on people I didn't like in ways that people didn't like. I am not okay with things like harassment, blatant rules violations, etc.

Eventually the NPO started down the path MK eventually went down fully, they just didn't get a chance to fully embrace it before Karma happened. So basically, in my opinion, the NPO was a far worse villain in the realm of IC (as was their intention largely), but MK is a far worse villain in terms of harming the actual gameplay (and people's personal lives).
[/quote]

How did MK utilise OOC tools to ruin CN's gameplay?

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='Chris Kaos' timestamp='1329839261' post='2925137']
You're both very wrong, so allow me to correct you. There are three things that made VX go from hero to zero in the eyes of everyone outside of GATO, although those in GATO knew the truth the whole time.

1. SDRD posted a long winded explanation as to why he left GATO and joined NPO, and included logs showing how Vincent Xander asked SDRD to spy on the NPO. This, frankly, was completely ridiculous and entirely a fabrication. Not only was SDRD's post immaculate in its grammar and orthography (which was entirely out of character, as he was German with a rather poor handle on English), claiming a friend helped him write it (more like Philosopher or USBR wrote it for him), but the logs were [i]complete[/i] fabrications. VX and I didn't trust SDRD at all, and we kept a very close eye on him, and if VX had been in need of someone to spy for him, he'd have asked me.

2. VX had a length discussion with Sir Galahad, then-MoFA of the Legion, about how to approach the NPO problem. There was one line in particular where VX said, "Help me hurt the NPO" or something to that effect, by which he meant politically, with propaganda and PR and NOT militarily. These logs were then posted in the general membership area of the Legion by SG, and were promptly leaked to the CN forums. I still can't believe SG had the audacity and balls to claim that the leak came from our end, when literally two people had seen them in GATO--VX and myself. The NPO decided to take it out of context, assign their own meaning, and attack GATO pretty much out of the blue.

Those two things were the CB of GWIII, essentially.

3. At this point, VX had served two consecutive terms as AC and couldn't run for a third, so he went for Congress and became Speaker. For those of you who don't know anything about GATO's governmental system, Congress is the legislative body, and from within their ranks, they elect a Speaker, who is first among equals and the general administrator of Congress. VX took it further than that, though, and pushed the limits of what he could do by inserting himself into the peace negotiations, and took a hardline approach with the NPO's negotiators, while Kevlar (the AC at the time), wanted to go a different route. The end result was that the NPO ridiculed him and essentially destroyed his name, and he decided to leave CN after this because the NPO had ruined his fun.

That was basically NPO standard operating procedure back then. They delighted in ruining people and alliances. They had no qualms about doing anything in order to win, and there were a lot of people who tried to be genuinely honest and upstanding in CN who just couldn't keep up with the NPO's practices. For those of you who haven't been around long than, let's say, a few months leading up to Karma, you really can't understand how bad they were. MK and friends have tried to be villains, but there's just nothing like vintage NPO villainry.
[/quote]

Not only was I in GATO when this happened, I was in the government when it happened. I seem to recall his discredit being more the product of his working toward smoothing over relations with NPO/NpO/GOONS in public, and making a big show of it, and then logs were leaked to the effect that he was actually trying to start a war with them (which, I guess, are the forged logs you're talking about). In any case it was obvious horse!@#$ cooked up by NPO, The League was an empty shell, and it had become obvious that NPO's military completely outclassed anyone on our side; The Legion was about to be revealed as the 'Paper Tiger', NAAC had that annoying habit of just throwing themselves head-long in to NpO without any attempt at strategy, and we just couldn't match NPO's stat line, even at 1k nations.

In any case, NPO may have been bad back then, but I do not remember them being anywhere near as bad as MK is now.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Olaf Styke

[Master-Debater]

Man the names being thrown around in this thread really take me back. I remember talking with VX from time to time back then. He was a great person to talk to when I got the chance. I never knew he re-rolled though.


Looking back on it I think I can say that the blurring of the IC/OOC line is the worst thing to happen to bob. Before the lines were blurred bob was just more active and a place you wanted to be. Now.......now its something else..........

I really miss some of those old timers to. I think I miss just chatting with them the most though. Those were good times to have a chat with people.

[quote]I basically agree with you, but there is one main difference. The NPO at its worst was pretty bad, and was everything you said above, but it was entirely in character. The NPO were out to win this game, and they were going to do it any way possible. However I feel that their record was pretty solid in terms of keeping everything in character. The villains you mention now, the MKs and such, are fully okay with bringing OOC issues into the game as well as utilizing OOC harassment. Folks like Ivan and Dilber, Musso and everyone else, they wouldn't have even considered OOC harassment. That's why a lot of us were okay with being "the bad guys" back then. I was okay with being a "bad guy" when it meant I declared wars on people I didn't like in ways that people didn't like. I am not okay with things like harassment, blatant rules violations, etc.

Eventually the NPO started down the path MK eventually went down fully, they just didn't get a chance to fully embrace it before Karma happened. So basically, in my opinion, the NPO was a far worse villain in the realm of IC (as was their intention largely), but MK is a far worse villain in terms of harming the actual gameplay (and people's personal lives).[/quote]

Random hits it out of the park here. For as "bad" as NPO was they were IC the whole time. They were the best "bad guys" I have ever faced in CN or in any other realm I visit. They truly were the best of the best at what they did.
I still want a piece of Philosopher to. I hate that guy(totally IC).


[quote name='New Frontier' timestamp='1329887116' post='2925425']
Is that you, Random? Are you in there?

In what way is NPO's long history of chasing people across rerolls and digging up IPs "all in character"?
[/quote]
As someone who was hunted by the NPO for some time I can say they kept it within the IC realm the entire time. I never re-rolled but I was hunted by them pretty efficiently when I look back at it.

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='Mack Truck' timestamp='1329905598' post='2925516']
How did MK utilise OOC tools to ruin CN's gameplay?
[/quote]

How many threads on MK's forums have been created about or relating to the RL persona's of nation rulers within this realm? Any number higher than one crosses the line of what is acceptable.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Charles Stuart

[Wu Tang Clan]

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1329910221' post='2925527']
How many threads on MK's forums have been created about or relating to the RL persona's of nation rulers within this realm? Any number higher than one crosses the line of what is acceptable.
[/quote]

And you don't think NPO ever did this?

Damn, I know Jihad has done this... creating a thread that says "so and so rerolled and is now so and so."

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='Wu Tang Clan' timestamp='1329918377' post='2925543']
And you don't think NPO ever did this?

Damn, I know Jihad has done this... creating a thread that says "so and so rerolled and is now so and so."
[/quote]

Tracking rerolls isn't what I was referring to. I was referring to incidents such as the legion MoFA one last. "NPO did it first" does not somehow make it ok either

Edited February 22, 2012 by Charles Stuart

[Branimir]

This makes victory in the final act of the trilogy that much more fun.

[kerschbs]

[quote name='RandomInterrupt' timestamp='1329885622' post='2925412']
I basically agree with you, but there is one main difference. The NPO at its worst was pretty bad, and was everything you said above, but it was entirely in character. The NPO were out to win this game, and they were going to do it any way possible. However I feel that their record was pretty solid in terms of keeping everything in character. The villains you mention now, the MKs and such, are fully okay with bringing OOC issues into the game as well as utilizing OOC harassment. Folks like Ivan and Dilber, Musso and everyone else, they wouldn't have even considered OOC harassment. That's why a lot of us were okay with being "the bad guys" back then. I was okay with being a "bad guy" when it meant I declared wars on people I didn't like in ways that people didn't like. I am not okay with things like harassment, blatant rules violations, etc.

Eventually the NPO started down the path MK eventually went down fully, they just didn't get a chance to fully embrace it before Karma happened. So basically, in my opinion, the NPO was a far worse villain in the realm of IC (as was their intention largely), but MK is a far worse villain in terms of harming the actual gameplay (and people's personal lives).
[/quote]

Besides the fact that they had a terrible history of not allowing players to re-roll into new identities.

Case in point was Chris re-rolling as Alexander Gladius and being a congressmen under the new identity. It didn't matter that the persona was so different from CK that none of us knew who it was at the time, or that NPO found out something like 8 months after it happened. It still got us rolled for months on end, and then a Viceroy after that. We suffered for an entire year because they couldn't separate the OC/IC line.

They may not have taken OOC info and used it the same way as some have done today, but they absolutely attacked the ooc person behind a player.

[Chris Kaos]

[quote name='RandomInterrupt' timestamp='1329885622' post='2925412']
I basically agree with you, but there is one main difference. The NPO at its worst was pretty bad, and was everything you said above, but it was entirely in character. The NPO were out to win this game, and they were going to do it any way possible. However I feel that their record was pretty solid in terms of keeping everything in character. The villains you mention now, the MKs and such, are fully okay with bringing OOC issues into the game as well as utilizing OOC harassment. Folks like Ivan and Dilber, Musso and everyone else, they wouldn't have even considered OOC harassment. That's why a lot of us were okay with being "the bad guys" back then. I was okay with being a "bad guy" when it meant I declared wars on people I didn't like in ways that people didn't like. I am not okay with things like harassment, blatant rules violations, etc.

Eventually the NPO started down the path MK eventually went down fully, they just didn't get a chance to fully embrace it before Karma happened. So basically, in my opinion, the NPO was a far worse villain in the realm of IC (as was their intention largely), but MK is a far worse villain in terms of harming the actual gameplay (and people's personal lives).
[/quote]
I had something long winded typed up in reply to this, but it went away, so I'll abbreviate.

I agree with you. The NPO villainry was the best thing for that game, and by setting GATO up as the anti-thesis to them, the GATO-NPO rivalry bascally drove the first 12-18 months of this game. The Great War era was undeniably the best this game's had.

My problem, however, is that sometimes they took it too far. Take a look at some of the stuff that was done during the viceroyalty. Hell, the viceroyalty itself. A lot of it served no purpose other than to be cruel for cruelty's sake. And they were engaged in some pretty heavy cheating for a long time too, and while I and some others knew about it, due to the unique kind of cheating, I couldn't act on it.

MK is worse, though, I'll give you that. I think the whole IC denigration started with LUE to some extent, but they were pretty good at at least trying to make reasons up for the stuff they did. When GOONS 1.0 came in, then \m/ and /b/ and Fark and all those other joke alliances, then it got bad. Now it's at a point where few people care, and trying to be IC-consistent is rare.

[quote name='Olaf Styke' timestamp='1329907994' post='2925518']
Not only was I in GATO when this happened, I was in the government when it happened. I seem to recall his discredit being more the product of his working toward smoothing over relations with NPO/NpO/GOONS in public, and making a big show of it, and then logs were leaked to the effect that he was actually trying to start a war with them (which, I guess, are the forged logs you're talking about). In any case it was obvious horse!@#$ cooked up by NPO, The League was an empty shell, and it had become obvious that NPO's military completely outclassed anyone on our side; The Legion was about to be revealed as the 'Paper Tiger', NAAC had that annoying habit of just throwing themselves head-long in to NpO without any attempt at strategy, and we just couldn't match NPO's stat line, even at 1k nations.

In any case, NPO may have been bad back then, but I do not remember them being anywhere near as bad as MK is now.
[/quote]
Actually, he genuinely wanted to work things over with the NPO, but they threw it in his face. That's when he spoke to Sir Galahad and the infamous logs got out, which were real, but taken wholly out of context and misconstrued for NPO's purposes. The fake logs were those of SDRD. He also posted something on the GATO forums expressing that he'd had enough, and he was going to actively work against them moving forward.

Sigh, the League. It had such promise. You're bang on about the NAAC and Legion, although I still genuinely feel like GWIII was winnable. But the plan that the Legion and NAAC came up with was pretty much the worst plan I'd ever heard of, or it would be, if it hadn't been the [i]exact same plan the NAAC used in GWII[/i]. AlmightyGrub really, really f-ed the dog on that one, and because VL Empire (who was actually a good, competent battlefield commander) was Prime Minister of Legion at the time, the Legion's MoD just dumbly nodded and did whatever the NAAC wanted, despite GATO being pummeled and screaming at them that they were doing the wrong thing. And we all know what happened then.

[Instr]

Wait, let me get this right here.

MK saying mean things about people on the Internet is worse than NPO rolling alliances with fabricated CBs?

[Wu Tang Clan]

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1329918836' post='2925545']
Tracking rerolls isn't what I was referring to. I was referring to incidents such as the legion MoFA one last. "NPO did it first" does not somehow make it ok either
[/quote]

Not saying it does... but the context of this argument was "NPO was a more moral villain because they didn't use OOC stuff, etc."

And rerolling should create a new IC persona (new nation, new ruler) so tracking down said people would definitely be blurring the OOC/IC line.

[Sir Sci]

[quote name='Chris Kaos' timestamp='1329921075' post='2925553']
I had something long winded typed up in reply to this, but it went away, so I'll abbreviate.

I agree with you. The NPO villainry was the best thing for that game, and by setting GATO up as the anti-thesis to them, the GATO-NPO rivalry bascally drove the first 12-18 months of this game. The Great War era was undeniably the best this game's had.

My problem, however, is that sometimes they took it too far. Take a look at some of the stuff that was done during the viceroyalty. Hell, the viceroyalty itself. A lot of it served no purpose other than to be cruel for cruelty's sake. And they were engaged in some pretty heavy cheating for a long time too, and while I and some others knew about it, due to the unique kind of cheating, I couldn't act on it.

MK is worse, though, I'll give you that. I think the whole IC denigration started with LUE to some extent, but they were pretty good at at least trying to make reasons up for the stuff they did. When GOONS 1.0 came in, then \m/ and /b/ and Fark and all those other joke alliances, then it got bad. Now it's at a point where few people care, and trying to be IC-consistent is rare.


Actually, he genuinely wanted to work things over with the NPO, but they threw it in his face. That's when he spoke to Sir Galahad and the infamous logs got out, which were real, but taken wholly out of context and misconstrued for NPO's purposes. The fake logs were those of SDRD. He also posted something on the GATO forums expressing that he'd had enough, and he was going to actively work against them moving forward.

Sigh, the League. It had such promise. You're bang on about the NAAC and Legion, although I still genuinely feel like GWIII was winnable. But the plan that the Legion and NAAC came up with was pretty much the worst plan I'd ever heard of, or it would be, if it hadn't been the [i]exact same plan the NAAC used in GWII[/i]. AlmightyGrub really, really f-ed the dog on that one, and because VL Empire (who was actually a good, competent battlefield commander) was Prime Minister of Legion at the time, the Legion's MoD just dumbly nodded and did whatever the NAAC wanted, despite GATO being pummeled and screaming at them that they were doing the wrong thing. And we all know what happened then.
[/quote]

I am still convinced that if it wasn't for Yoda and that whole "Coven of the Lost" thing, that the first GW would have been GATO and Legion's (and friends) opportunity to cut NPO down to a point where they could not have become so dominant. Sure, they would have rebuilt eventually, but that war ended far too soon.