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Will the Real Ragnarok Please stand up?


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[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1328072278' post='2912276']
I believe much of the concern is that Ragnarok does what alliances do for their members: protect them. Perhaps they're incapable of doing so at the moment due to the internal upheaval, but surely they will perform the basic task necessary for an alliance to exist once they get their act together. I mean, they couldn't [i]possibly[/i] rescind KK's expulsion and then hang her out to dry, right?
[/quote]
You are being disingenous. RoK representatives have approached MK in good faith with the intention of resolving this issue. MK has suspended negotiations for the time being because they do not recognise the new leadership, even while claiming that RoK is responsible for Kait's actions. So the issue is dependent on MK's willingness to engage with those representatives who are willing to accept responsibility for the actions of RoK members and discuss a resolution.

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[quote name='Sir Humphrey' timestamp='1328074217' post='2912323']
You are being disingenous. RoK representatives have approached MK in good faith with the intention of resolving this issue. MK has suspended negotiations for the time being because they do not recognise the new leadership, even while claiming that RoK is responsible for Kait's actions. So the issue is dependent on MK's willingness to engage with those representatives who are willing to accept responsibility for the actions of RoK members and discuss a resolution.
[/quote]
To accept responsibility would be to own up to the fact that it was a mistake to take in a nation at war [i]and still nuking[/i] members of another alliance. There has been no admission of guilt on this. It's always the same line: Kait was always a member, nana nana boo boo (that was slightly paraphrased).

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[quote name='Sir Humphrey' timestamp='1328074217' post='2912323']
You are being disingenous. RoK representatives have approached MK in good faith with the intention of resolving this issue. MK has suspended negotiations for the time being because they do not recognise the new leadership, even while claiming that RoK is responsible for Kait's actions. So the issue is dependent on MK's willingness to engage with those representatives who are willing to accept responsibility for the actions of RoK members and discuss a resolution.
[/quote]
Why should anybody waste time speaking with an alliance that changes "leadership" by the sunrise and rescinds prior decisions just as regularly? Stability is essential in peace negotiations.

As for "holding RoK responsible," I dare say the horrors of peace remain upon us. I have seen no broader assault on the RoKlund. Typically when we choose to mete out responsibility, the whole world knows and shudders.

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[quote name='Stormsend' timestamp='1328074539' post='2912328']
To accept responsibility would be to own up to the fact that it was a mistake to take in a nation at war [i]and still nuking[/i] members of another alliance. There has been no admission of guilt on this. It's always the same line: Kait was always a member, nana nana boo boo (that was slightly paraphrased).
[/quote]

She was. Just like your member who attacked/raided her was never on your official AA when they attacked.

God forbid someone defend themselves, let alone given the circumstances and what utter nonsense they've had to suffer from your ilk.

Edited by IYIyTh
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[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1328074629' post='2912333']
She was. Just like your member who attacked/raided her was never on your official AA.

God forbid someone defend themselves, let alone given the circumstances and what utter nonsense they've had to suffer from your ilk.
[/quote]
She was cast out by the legitimate government of Ragnarok at the time of her expulsion. She was not, according to many precedents set forth by alliances and leaders past, a member of the alliance.

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[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1328073310' post='2912304']
Ahh yes, the "it's an old grudge" excuse...funny that hasn't been brought up by anyone else until now...because the timing had nothing to do with OOC events. :rolleyes:

Of course it did, and while it is true that she was served up by what was then Rok government, specifically Joe and Bob, they were caught up in on all the OOC crap just like your members.
[/quote]

Of course it has to do with OOC events. Those events are the consequences I mention that allowed MKers to take revenge. But I'm not sure who you think you are to question whether MK has a grudge or not, or whether they feel the need to talk about it. You're rather presumptuous here to claim to read mines and divine the intentions within the hearts of men.

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[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1328074629' post='2912333']
She was. Just like your member who attacked/raided her was never on your official AA when they attacked.

God forbid someone defend themselves, let alone given the circumstances and what utter nonsense they've had to suffer from your ilk.
[/quote]Not this argument again. What you're saying holds no water when held up to the common practices of most alliances on Bob. Kaitlin was expelled from the alliance by both the emperor and his second-in-command. She was not a member of RoK.

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[quote name='cookavich' timestamp='1328075253' post='2912346']
Not this argument again. What you're saying holds no water when held up to the common practices of most alliances on Bob. Kaitlin was expelled from the alliance by both the emperor and his second-in-command. She was not a member of RoK.
[/quote]

In Myth's world, he is always right. Remember this.


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[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1328074629' post='2912333']
She was. Just like your member who attacked/raided her was never on your official AA when they attacked.
[/quote]
She was not a member of RoK. Period.

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[quote name='cookavich' timestamp='1328075253' post='2912346']
Not this argument again. What you're saying holds no water when held up to the common practices of most alliances on Bob. Kaitlin was expelled from the alliance by both the emperor and his second-in-command. She was not a member of RoK.
[/quote]
Again, it isn't entirely uncommon to take a nation in at war, what would be uncommon is to materially aid that nation. I personally am not abhorred by the attacks on the nation in question or the decision to halt talks after that nation launched nuclear attacks, personally I think the ruler of that nation is a veteran leader and knew exactly what those continued attacks would cause. Almost as if the intention was to get their alliance rolled.

All I am saying is there is a history of alliances on occasion taking in a nation currently at war with out giving material support and using said action to destroy that alliance is milk toast at best, not that you guys couldn't or can't do it just that you shouldn't.

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[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1328064457' post='2912050']
MK has an entire thread dedicated to OOC attacks against Hoo and Kait and have been coordinating their OOC attacks with the girl's biological father, thus their selection of "biodad kingdom" as their AA to attack Kait with.
[/quote]
You really have an unfortunate habit of making things up.

[quote name='Roadie' timestamp='1328066937' post='2912131']
It's been several years since the use of nuclear weaponry has been considered an escalation. Not even MK can get away with that as an excuse.
[/quote]
The issue wasn't the fact that it was nuke. It was her doing attacks (any attacks) [b][i]after[/i][/b] Rok gov approached us saying that she was in fact a member and revoking the clearance that we had been given to attack.

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[quote name='Proest' timestamp='1328075330' post='2912350']
In Myth's world, he is always right. Remember this.



[/quote]

Bandwagon's full, please catch another...

Oh wait, nevermind.....you found one.

That was fast.

Edited by IYIyTh
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[quote name='cookavich' timestamp='1328075253' post='2912346']
Not this argument again. What you're saying holds no water when held up to the common practices of most alliances on Bob. Kaitlin was expelled from the alliance by both the emperor and his second-in-command. She was not a member of RoK.
[/quote]

Most alliances of Bob don't consider people not on their official AA to be members of their official AA alliance, especially when these individuals raid other people and...by some formerly unknown reason...decide to fight back.

Heathens, uslurpers.

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[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1328074571' post='2912330']
Why should anybody waste time speaking with an alliance that changes "leadership" by the sunrise and rescinds prior decisions just as regularly? Stability is essential in peace negotiations.[/quote]
I don't see multiple leadership changes. I only see two claims relating to one leadership change, which support the public [i]perception[/i] of instability, even if perception may not equal reality.

Ultimately, however, Bob and Joe have made no serious attempt since the change of leadership to look after the interests of RoK or its members, and in fact did the opposite by cancelling and attempting to cancel treaties. So I don't see how their claims can be taken seriously.

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[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1328075990' post='2912361']
Again, it isn't entirely uncommon to take a nation in at war, what would be uncommon is to materially aid that nation. I personally am not abhorred by the attacks on the nation in question or the decision to halt talks after that nation launched nuclear attacks, personally I think the ruler of that nation is a veteran leader and knew exactly what those continued attacks would cause. Almost as if the intention was to get their alliance rolled.

All I am saying is there is a history of alliances on occasion taking in a nation currently at war with out giving material support and using said action to destroy that alliance is milk toast at best, not that you guys couldn't or can't do it just that you shouldn't.
[/quote]
Absolutely it does happen. That doesn't make it a recommended course of action, nor does it make the decision without risks and consequences. There's no sweeping consensus that is accepted by all of Bob on how situations like this should be resolved. These types of things are dealt with on a case-by-case basis. For instance, one goon raid target is accepted by NPL mid-raid: we let that slide. NPL goes out of their way to recruit all of our raid targets: you saw how that ended. In a relationship as tense as the one between MK and RoK, it's not wise to step into the middle of it and expect everything to come up roses.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerisdisL11.jpg[/img]

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[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1328076230' post='2912364']The issue wasn't the fact that it was nuke. It was her doing attacks (any attacks) [b][i]after[/i][/b] Rok gov approached us saying that she was in fact a member and revoking the clearance that we had been given to attack.
[/quote]
And this is the issue that the [i]same[/i] RoK gov is willing to engage with MK in order to determine how it can be resolved.

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[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1328076389' post='2912367']
Bandwagon's full, please catch another...

Oh wait, nevermind.....you found one.

That was fast.
[/quote]

Yeah, because I'm "incapable of making decisions" right?


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[quote name='Sir Humphrey' timestamp='1328077428' post='2912382']
And this is the issue that the [i]same[/i] RoK gov is willing to engage with MK in order to determine how it can be resolved.
[/quote]

I bet your mother is willing to engage with MK.

Edited by Jacapo Saladin
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[quote name='Guzalot' timestamp='1328069969' post='2912205']
That's fine. If that is what MK wants to be known for then go for it. It doesn't exactly instill fear.
[/quote]
Unlike your mother's appearance.

Now I must be off as Jacapo has pointed out, we MKers have a prior engagement.

Edited by Drai
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[quote name='Archon' timestamp='1328074773' post='2912337']
...You're rather presumptuous here to claim to read mines ...
[/quote]

Mines are terrible things to waste... Besides, how hard is it really to read a mine? BOOM!?

I hope all can be sorted out soon and we can get back to watching the real war "of attrition".

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[quote name='Sir Humphrey' timestamp='1328076756' post='2912375']
I don't see multiple leadership changes. I only see two claims relating to one leadership change, which support the public [i]perception[/i] of instability, even if perception may not equal reality.

Ultimately, however, Bob and Joe have made no serious attempt since the change of leadership to look after the interests of RoK or its members, and in fact did the opposite by cancelling and attempting to cancel treaties. So I don't see how their claims can be taken seriously.
[/quote]
They are the legitimate leaders of Rok. However, the people ultimately decide who they want to lead them and nobody (especially not a foreign entity) can make that decision for them. In doing so they've violated their charter and also to any reasonable alliance have proven to be sporadic, risky and unreliable. I wouldn't want to be allied to an alliance that randomly violates their charter, takes down their communication hub (ooc: forums) and uses power over said hub to remove it's leadership based on an old leaderships's control of it. Furthermore, accepting a nation at war with an alliance that is far more powerful and already don't like them?

In terms of the best interest of Rok, this new incarnation of Rok is causing massive amounts of damage to itself.

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