Will the Real Ragnarok Please stand up?

[Neo Uruk]

[quote name='Guzalot' timestamp='1328071789' post='2912255']
Yeah, I (single nation nation) will declare war on an entire alliance. THAT will prove the rightness of my cause!

Ummm... yeah...
[/quote]
It would show the sincerity if nothing else. You're a coward if you're afraid to fight a losing battle every now and then?

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Blacky' timestamp='1328071771' post='2912253']
Are you seriously asking what beef MK would have if another alliance has a member (or members) at war with us?
I guess none really. If the alliance was also at war with us.
[/quote]
If no aid what so ever is given what possible beef could you have? They aren't limiting your ability to take military action, they aren't assisting her ability to take military action.

[Stormsend]

[quote name='zzzptm' timestamp='1328071978' post='2912264']
Lashing out in violence against an enemy is the basest and least effective means of resolving a dispute. The dispute is resolved only so long as one's might prevails. The dignity of the non-violent resolution is that it preserves one's enemy for a future in which he has a chance to mend his ways.

But go on with your sophomoric homophobic line of reasoning... everyone loves a bully with spunk!
[/quote]
Leave the fancy words to my buddy Schatt. He does it with much more style.

[Proest]

[quote name='Guzalot' timestamp='1328071789' post='2912255']
Yeah, I (single nation nation) will declare war on an entire alliance. THAT will prove the rightness of my cause!

Ummm... yeah...
[/quote]

Do it.

[Guzalot]

Let it be known that all posts by myself are my own views and do not necessarily (and probably don't) reflect the views of NPL. Having said that, I am done in this thread.

[Stormsend]

[quote name='Guzalot' timestamp='1328072214' post='2912272']
Let it be known that all posts by myself are my own views and do not necessarily (and probably don't) reflect the views of NPL. Having said that, I am done in this thread.
[/quote]
Finally a teaspoon of sense.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1328072087' post='2912268']
If no aid what so ever is given what possible beef could you have? They aren't limiting your ability to take military action, they aren't assisting her ability to take military action.
[/quote]
I believe much of the concern is that Ragnarok does what alliances do for their members: protect them. Perhaps they're incapable of doing so at the moment due to the internal upheaval, but surely they will perform the basic task necessary for an alliance to exist once they get their act together. I mean, they couldn't [i]possibly[/i] rescind KK's expulsion and then hang her out to dry, right?

[Blacky]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1328072087' post='2912268']
If no aid what so ever is given what possible beef could you have? They aren't limiting your ability to take military action, they aren't assisting her ability to take military action.
[/quote]
By their implicit support of the warring nation they would de-facto be at war with us. Can you not grasp that incredibly simple concept?

[Vanilla Napalm]

[quote name='zzzptm' timestamp='1328071978' post='2912264']
Lashing out in violence against an enemy is the basest and least effective means of resolving a dispute. The dispute is resolved only so long as one's might prevails. The dignity of the non-violent resolution is that it preserves one's enemy for a future in which he has a chance to mend his ways.
[/quote]
Hide yo' nations and bring out yo' keyboards, the communal clackity clack will save our world.
[quote]
But go on with your sophomoric homophobic line of reasoning... everyone loves a bully with spunk!
[/quote]
Did anyone else imagine Bill Donohue with a monocle?

[Stormsend]

[quote name='Vanilla Napalm' timestamp='1328072335' post='2912279']
Hide yo' nations and bring out yo' keyboards, the communal clackity clack will save our world.

Did anyone else imagine Bill Donohue with a monocle?
[/quote]
To be honest, he lost me at "basest."

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1328072087' post='2912268']
If no aid what so ever is given what possible beef could you have? They aren't limiting your ability to take military action, they aren't assisting her ability to take military action.
[/quote]
Ragnarok accepted a nation at war with MK. That means an actual member of Ragnarok is attacking MK. And MK is attacking an actual nation of Ragnarok. MK is within their right to escalate it or not as they please. There's a very good reason alliances don't normally accept nations at war, and this is it. At the very least they should have worked things out with MK before accepting her. Ragnarok decided to wedge themselves into the middle of a fight, and will have to take responsibility for whatever comes of it. There's no point in trying to lawyer it. The decision is up to MK and Ragnarok.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerisdisL7.jpg[/img]

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1328072278' post='2912276']
I believe much of the concern is that Ragnarok does what alliances do for their members: protect them. Perhaps they're incapable of doing so at the moment due to the internal upheaval, but surely they will perform the basic task necessary for an alliance to exist once they get their act together. I mean, they couldn't [i]possibly[/i] rescind KK's expulsion and then hang her out to dry, right?
[/quote]
This isn't the first time an alliance has admitted a nation currently at war, I believe NSO used to do this as policy. As long as no support is given your grief is the merely the AA she is flying. It is not unusual for an alliance to conduct negotiations for a nation at war that wishes to join, if RoK has gone beyond negotiations in their support of Kaitlin I could totally understand MK burning them to the ground, as far as the public knows it has just been negotiations.

[zzzptm]

[quote name='Stormsend' timestamp='1328072090' post='2912269']
Leave the fancy words to my buddy Schatt. He does it with much more style.
[/quote]
Ah, the smug, dismissive retort! Just the perfect thing to complete the repertoire of the spunky bully! Note the condescending tone that does nothing to acknowledge the speaker's own failings (the aforementioned sophomoric homophobia), forcing judgement onto the one that called him on the carpet for said failings, viz. the person to whom the present interlocutor refers to by means of the perpendicular pronoun.

Now, good sir, one has to ask if you plan to "grow a pair" and to "do something about it." I see your nation has all of 21K NS, so it seems as though your lads in uniform will need to add a significant amount of NS to your nation to "do something about it" with mine, or you'll have to call in someone to do your work for you, since you seem to be writing checks you can't cash. Xiphosis could lend you some tips in that regard, talk with him about how he keeps on keepin' on. Of course, should you and anyone in your alliance or set of allies seek to engage in GODlike behavior, well... perhaps one shouldn't go down that road...

But I have no issue with you personally or anyone in the Kingdom of the Mush Rooms, beyond that of MK entering into an ambiguous situation, hoping to resolve that ambiguity for its own advantage. Pardon me as I wag my finger, but do naught more on the matter.

Good day, sir.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1328072731' post='2912288']
This isn't the first time an alliance has admitted a nation currently at war, I believe NSO used to do this as policy. As long as no support is given your grief is the merely the AA she is flying. It is not unusual for an alliance to conduct negotiations for a nation at war that wishes to join, if RoK has gone beyond negotiations in their support of Kaitlin I could totally understand MK burning them to the ground, as far as the public knows it has just been negotiations.
[/quote]
I assume that distinction is why we have not already reduced them to ashes. It's plenty within our ability. I for one am happy to dismiss anything they do. I'd like to acquire a Weapons Research Complex.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1328072882' post='2912291']
I for one am happy to dismiss anything they do. I'd like to acquire a Weapons Research Complex.
[/quote]
I wouldn't, dude, everything's super expensive.

[Stormsend]

[quote name='zzzptm' timestamp='1328072849' post='2912290']
Ah, the smug, dismissive retort! Just the perfect thing to complete the repertoire of the spunky bully! Note the condescending tone that does nothing to acknowledge the speaker's own failings (the aforementioned sophomoric homophobia), forcing judgement onto the one that called him on the carpet for said failings, viz. the person to whom the present interlocutor refers to by means of the perpendicular pronoun.

Now, good sir, one has to ask if you plan to "grow a pair" and to "do something about it." I see your nation has all of 21K NS, so it seems as though your lads in uniform will need to add a significant amount of NS to your nation to "do something about it" with mine, or you'll have to call in someone to do your work for you, since you seem to be writing checks you can't cash. Xiphosis could lend you some tips in that regard, talk with him about how he keeps on keepin' on. Of course, should you and anyone in your alliance or set of allies seek to engage in GODlike behavior, well... perhaps one shouldn't go down that road...

But I have no issue with you personally or anyone in the Kingdom of the Mush Rooms, beyond that of MK entering into an ambiguous situation, hoping to resolve that ambiguity for its own advantage. Pardon me as I wag my finger, but do naught more on the matter.

Good day, sir.
[/quote]
First of all, sit down and shut up. The amount of hot air you're spewing is hurting the ozone.

Secondly, you can call me the basest, say I'm forcing judgment and whatever, but it's a circular argument. You're doing the exact same thing here.

Next, let's discuss my "shut up and bring it" remarks. If I was morally outraged at something, I would do something about it, but you're not worth the time, and I genuinely like Schattenmann and wouldn't attack anyone in his alliance.

Finally... are you saying I'm scared of homosexuals? I'm not really sure how that came up even.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Stormsend

[zzzptm]

[quote name='Stormsend' timestamp='1328073161' post='2912299']
First of all, sit down and shut up. The amount of hot air you're spewing is hurting the ozone.

Secondly, you can call me the basest, say I'm forcing judgment and whatever, but it's a circular argument. You're doing the exact same thing here.

Next, let's discuss my "shut up and bring it" remarks. If I was morally outraged at something, I would do something about it, but you're not worth the time, and I genuinely like Schattenmann and wouldn't attack anyone in his alliance.

Finally... are you saying I'm scared of homosexuals? I'm not really sure how that came up even.
[/quote]

[i]I said good day![/i]

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Archon' timestamp='1328070878' post='2912224']
Wat. The alliance affiliation worn is their own business - they have felt the need to convert to a new god from the light of Allarchon (which wounds me, truly), and that is their choice. There are many folks in the Kingdom who have disliked KaitlinK for a very long time now, dating back to when MA and RoK dropped MK a long while ago. This is the first good chance they've had to go for her, and she was served up by her own alliance's leadership. The hell if I care about the circumstances around it, or what folly allowed them the opportunity.[/quote]

Ahh yes, the "it's an old grudge" excuse...funny that hasn't been brought up by anyone else until now...because the timing had nothing to do with OOC events.

Of course it did, and while it is true that she was served up by what was then Rok government, specifically Joe and Bob, they were caught up in on all the OOC crap just like your members.

[quote]OOC: To be entirely fair, the majority of the people here based their judgement solely on the Kaitlin/Hoo side of the story, so blasting MKers for taking the other side is kind of bunk when you all are running on only half the story yourselves. However, I've of no mind to argue on this, especially not in this arena. The moderation staff has taken their side on the matter, and so I'd rather take the discussion elsewhere out of respect for them.[/quote]

[i]OOC: All you are doing is agreeing with me that there were two sides to the story and no one here had the whole story. That made it imperative for the community to back off and avoid judgment--and note I said judgment (and throw in Photoshops of press conferences while we're at it), not discussion. Instead, we got what we've had here the past couple of weeks. I'll be happy to discuss this in another "arena", specifically in PM or the MK embassy at Valhalla. [/i]

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Archon' timestamp='1328066653' post='2912125']
I was unaware that KaitlinK, ruler of the nation Kastay, had some tragedy befall her. I had heard naught of it. I would wish her well, but given that she has escalated a conflict via nuclear weaponry, I think I'd rather see her burn. Nothing personal - just alliance business.

[OOC: For all the recent controversy concerning the IC/OOC line, it's always amusing to see it applied inconsistently.]
[/quote]

Maybe it has something to do with that Arab spring invention I recently heard about.

[ooc]The line was sacrosanct for NoR. Why is it not for RoK?[/ooc]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1328072278' post='2912276']
I believe much of the concern is that Ragnarok does what alliances do for their members: protect them. Perhaps they're incapable of doing so at the moment due to the internal upheaval, but surely they will perform the basic task necessary for an alliance to exist once they get their act together. I mean, they couldn't [i]possibly[/i] rescind KK's expulsion and then hang her out to dry, right?
[/quote]

Maybe they never rescinded her membership and you attacked a protected target? Maybe Kait is a member of Joe's illegitimate Ragnarok government? Too many ifs to throw out taunts.

[Joe Stupid]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1328073359' post='2912307']
Maybe it has something to do with that Arab spring invention I recently heard about.

[ooc]The line was sacrosanct for NoR. Why is it not for RoK?[/ooc]



Maybe they never rescinded her membership and you attacked a protected target? Maybe Kait is a member of Joe's illegitimate Ragnarok government? Too many ifs to throw out taunts.
[/quote]

Hell no. I was her regent once, the amount of damage done then has culminated now.

[Blacky]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1328072731' post='2912288']
This isn't the first time an alliance has admitted a nation currently at war, I believe NSO used to do this as policy. As long as no support is given your grief is the merely the AA she is flying.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure what your understanding of support is but implicit support would be inherently offered as a requirement of membership. Furthermore, it would open up the possibility of swaying that alliance against the warring alliance, potentially accessing war guides, etc. There are legitimate concerns associated with it.

However, in this case Rok did not attempt to clear the situation with MK before reinstating Kait as a member. In doing so they are tacitly supporting Kait who is at war with MK. Whether we respond to this escalation or not is our discretion, but if we chose to it would wholly be justified.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Stormsend' timestamp='1328073161' post='2912299']
Finally... are you saying I'm scared of homosexuals? I'm not really sure how that came up even.
[/quote]
The degree to which he appreciates my swagger and spunk scares him. He's all tore up inside.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Ardus

[Stormsend]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1328073747' post='2912315']
The degree to which he appreciates my swagger and spunk scares him. He's all tore up inside.
[/quote]
I hate to be "base" here, but I find this talk of homohobia and spunk quite disturbing.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Stormsend' timestamp='1328073802' post='2912316']
I hate to be "base" here, but I find this talk of homohobia and spunk quite disturbing.
[/quote]
I find the depths of your denial and discomfort to be no less disgusting.

no homo

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Blacky' timestamp='1328073747' post='2912314']
Whether we respond to this escalation or not is our discretion, but if we chose to it would wholly be justified.[/quote]
If it counts for anything, I totally think you should.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerishehL6.jpg[/img]