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2191 Days of Glorious Brown Democracy


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Definitely worth a congratulations. GATO is easily one of the most resilient alliances around, holding together through some of the worst leadership and the most unjust wars in these many years. I remember chilling in #gato_ga under perma-zi during the GATO-1V war with people whom I'd counted among my enemies for a very long time. It was honestly a transforming experience to see a community from the inside that I'd been part of besieging from the outside and the toll it could take.

Much of that core is still here, and many have been added, and such cohesion is itself worth celebrating. Keep on keepin' on.

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I don't know why stockholm syndrome suits you so well. The reason you were bill locked to begin with is because they had mercilessly prosecuted a war of extermination over Chris Kaos rerolling and being a deputy MoIA for a period that had long passed. The grudge itself went back to GWI. The only reason you exist in the present state you do is because a lot of people who had left GATO before the 1V-GATO war went back, like magicninja. It was pretty puzzling to see you all complain over a perfectly legitimate preemptive attack against a hostile alliance and act like it was nearly as bad. Hell, you went so far as to pre-empt an alliance yourself. Making an alliance a tech farm and claiming that it's somehow nice to do so is hilarious.

Can I get all the GATO posts bawwing about it? Or can you just admit you were wrong? :P

edit: In conclusion, we should have kept NPO at war until everyone was in tech selling range, imposed a Viceroy, and then bought tech from them. Then they'd really love us if we were kind of sorry about it.

Edited by Roquentin
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[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326451748' post='2898725']
I don't know why stockholm syndrome suits you so well. The reason you were bill locked to begin with is because they had mercilessly prosecuted a war of extermination over Chris Kaos rerolling and being a deputy MoIA for a period that had long passed. The grudge itself went back to GWI. The only reason you exist in the present state you do is because a lot of people who had left GATO before the 1V-GATO war went back, like magicninja. It was pretty puzzling to see you all complain over a perfectly legitimate preemptive attack against a hostile alliance and act like it was nearly as bad. Hell, you went so far as to pre-empt an alliance yourself. Making an alliance a tech farm and claiming that it's somehow nice to do so is hilarious.

Can I get all the GATO posts bawwing about it? Or can you just admit you were wrong? :P
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I don't really know the situation in the kind of depth others do, but I'll respond anyway. Our existence in our current state has been down to a lot of hard work and lessons learned, some during the Viceroy and some after, by our leadership that has wanted to restore GATO. Many people went back, but there's a huge core that remained in GATO throughout everything, or who returned as soon as they could after being ejected. The unjustness of the war I think lies in the factnone of the issues mattered when prosecuted (aside from blind hate for each other), and I think anyone around at the time would be skeptical of us being remotely hostile. I don't think I'd claim that making us a tech farm was a nice thing to do, but it was certainly a case of "when life gives you lemons, make lemonade".

I'd hardly call our modern relationship stockholm syndrome - few of the people who were part of that Viceroy team are still active, but what it did do is give us some personal connections that have endured today. When the grudges of GW1 were completely and utterly over, and we have a lot in common terms of our outlook, why not act on those connections?

So no, we're not wrong. I'm not entirely sure why I bothered to respond to this poor effort at trolling, but regardless I went and did it.

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[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1326453175' post='2898731']
I don't really know the situation in the kind of depth others do, but I'll respond anyway. Our existence in our current state has been down to a lot of hard work and lessons learned, some during the Viceroy and some after, by our leadership that has wanted to restore GATO. Many people went back, but there's a huge core that remained in GATO throughout everything, or who returned as soon as they could after being ejected. The unjustness of the war I think lies in the factnone of the issues mattered when prosecuted (aside from blind hate for each other), and I think anyone around at the time would be skeptical of us being remotely hostile. I don't think I'd claim that making us a tech farm was a nice thing to do, but it was certainly a case of "when life gives you lemons, make lemonade".

I'd hardly call our modern relationship stockholm syndrome - few of the people who were part of that Viceroy team are still active, but what it did do is give us some personal connections that have endured today. When the grudges of GW1 were completely and utterly over, and we have a lot in common terms of our outlook, why not act on those connections?

So no, we're not wrong. I'm not entirely sure why I bothered to respond to this poor effort at trolling, but regardless I went and did it.
[/quote]

It's not really trolling. It was an honest question. I just don't "get" it from GATO. Like you can see with FAN, they're not going to get over it and it makes sense. The thing is, NPO has never really had to pay a real price like GATO and FAN did. The viability of their alliance has always been in tact.

I meant wrong for all the criticism of the DH preempt on NPO and then doing it to another alliance.

Edited by Roquentin
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[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326453306' post='2898733']
It's not really trolling. It was an honest question. I just don't "get" it from GATO. Like you can see with FAN, they're not going to get over it and it makes sense. The thing is, NPO has never really had to pay a real price like GATO and FAN did. The viability of their alliance has always been in tact.

I meant wrong for all the criticism of the DH preempt on NPO and then doing it to another alliance.
[/quote]

Oh right. Well, I personally didn't really oppose that pre-empt so I can't really talk about it.

An interesting example, since FAN has been left somewhat directionless and obsessed by this eternal hatred, and GATO is about more than getting together to attack a bunch of people over and over again. Have we "paid them back"? I suppose not, but I think in the process we'd lose sight of everything else we're getting right at the moment. We've bounced back from near extinction to enjoying ourselves as a community, one that's free to behave and interact how it sees fit. I do not want to be defined by our obsession with making life miserable for one set of people. I want to be defined by being ourselves and making a success of that.

I also think NPO is largely different now. Many of my interactions are with Farrin, for example, someone with very little claim to the events of GWI or whatever.

Edited by Laslo Kenez
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[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1326454062' post='2898734']
Oh right. Well, I personally didn't really oppose that pre-empt so I can't really talk about it.

An interesting example, since FAN has been left somewhat directionless and obsessed by this eternal hatred, and GATO is about more than getting together to attack a bunch of people over and over again. Have we "paid them back"? I suppose not, but I think in the process we'd lose sight of everything else we're getting right at the moment. We've bounced back from near extinction to enjoying ourselves as a community, one that's free to behave and interact how it sees fit.

I also think NPO is largely different now. Many of my interactions are with Farrin, for example, someone with very little claim to the events of GWI or whatever.
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FAN actually had built up a fairly formidable base of allies. Having an enemy gave them direction and something to stay around for. I mean, look at the original terms given to FAN at the end of WUT-FAN. Those were pretty bad themselves with things like no factories and no external aid. They fulfilled the terms and trumped up violations were used to roll them for them a year+. I can completely understand their undying hatred.

I'm not really familiar with the present gov outside of the few at the top.

Edited by Roquentin
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[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326454317' post='2898735']
FAN actually had built up a fairly formidable base of allies. Having an enemy gave them direction and something to stay around for. I mean, look at the original terms given to FAN at the end of WUT-FAN. Those were pretty bad themselves with things like no factories. They fulfilled the terms and trumped up violations were used to roll them for them a year+. I can completely understand their undying hatred.
[/quote]

Sure, and I know we've gotten on alright in the past. But this war has seen them basically out-moded and isolated by their continuing desire to not only prosecute their hatred, but to never, ever, let it go and move on. As such, it's currently killing them. I'm not trying to compare with them and say we're doing it right, but what I am saying is that our approach has been to move our community on and let what happens in the present and future define who we are. I don't want to be elected Minister of Attacking Pacifica, I want to be elected as the person to help the whole place grow. I don't think some of our values, like inclusiveness and being supportive, are really compatible with endlessly pursuing something no longer really relevant to anyone else.

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[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1326454596' post='2898736']
Sure, and I know we've gotten on alright in the past. But this war has seen them basically out-moded and isolated by their continuing desire to not only prosecute their hatred, but to never, ever, let it go and move on. As such, it's currently killing them. I'm not trying to compare with them and say we're doing it right, but what I am saying is that our approach has been to move our community on and let what happens in the present and future define who we are. I don't want to be elected Minister of Attacking Pacifica, I want to be elected as the person to help the whole place grow. I don't think some of our values, like inclusiveness and being supportive, are really compatible with endlessly pursuing something no longer really relevant to anyone else.
[/quote]

I guess the difference is, that the same people who were running FAN then are running FAN now and GATO is more of a melange of newer people like yourself and some older. FAN being outmoded is a function unrelated to their pursuit of the grudge with NPO and has more to do with nation building strategies and overall interest in the world.

Edited by Roquentin
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[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326454883' post='2898737']
I guess the difference is, that the same people who were running FAN then are running FAN now and GATO is more of a melange of newer people like yourself and some older. FAN being outmoded is a function unrelated to their pursuit of the grudge with NPO and has more to do with nation building strategies and overall interest in the world.
[/quote]

A fair point, but regardless I think the time when anyone else cared about wailing on NPO for grudges has firmly passed. Whether or not that's a good thing or not is a value call other people will have to make for themselves, but for the vast majority of GATO we've decided to let it go and enjoy a decent friendship with an alliance we probably have more in common with these days than divides us. We enjoy their company, and I like to think it speaks well for GATO that we're more interested in our community being a healthy place to be than going after grudges of days gone by, that none of the old crowd really hold anymore.

Edited by Laslo Kenez
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[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1326455256' post='2898738']
A fair point, but regardless I think the time when anyone else cared about wailing on NPO for grudges has firmly passed. Whether or not that's a good thing or not is a value call other people will have to make for themselves, but for the vast majority of GATO we've decided to let it go and enjoy a decent friendship with an alliance we probably have more in common with these days than divides us. We enjoy their company, and I like to think it speaks well for GATO that we're more interested in our community being a healthy place to be than going after grudges of days gone by, that none of the old crowd really hold anymore.
[/quote]

What puzzles me is you let that one go but hold a pseudo grudge against Polar for some reason. At this point though, NpO is like the NPO of 2010 and then early 2011, but even worse off.

Though a lot of it has to do with people like TOP actually holding grudges and being willing to act on them, which isn't really bad.

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[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326455591' post='2898740']
What puzzles me is you let that one go but hold a pseudo grudge against Polar for some reason. At this point though, NpO is like the NPO of 2010 and then early 2011, but even worse off.

Though a lot of it has to do with people like TOP actually holding grudges and being willing to act on them, which isn't really bad.
[/quote]

Well, personally for me it just comes with the quality of interaction. I think they've at various times tried to manipulate our allies into bailing them out of the messes they made for themselves, and meanwhile, a number of their members are just outright rude to us still. And not in a cute trolling way either. Grub for example will curse us to the high heavens if given the chance. Still, if they were willing to put in the kind of work that Pacifica has in to presenting some likeable faces and being thoughtful about the past, we'd probably let go of that. However, I think half the problem with Polar at the moment is that they have no intention of changing or really apologising for anything. Pacifica on the other hand has interacted with us very well, and as a result we've come to enjoy their company and see the benefit in co-operation.

Edited by Laslo Kenez
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[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326451748' post='2898725']
I don't know why stockholm syndrome suits you so well. The reason you were bill locked to begin with is because they had mercilessly prosecuted a war of extermination over Chris Kaos rerolling and being a deputy MoIA for a period that had long passed. The grudge itself went back to GWI. The only reason you exist in the present state you do is because a lot of people who had left GATO before the 1V-GATO war went back, [b]like magicninja[/b]. It was pretty puzzling to see you all complain over a perfectly legitimate preemptive attack against a hostile alliance and act like it was nearly as bad. Hell, you went so far as to pre-empt an alliance yourself. Making an alliance a tech farm and claiming that it's somehow nice to do so is hilarious.

Can I get all the GATO posts bawwing about it? Or can you just admit you were wrong? :P

edit: In conclusion, we should have kept NPO at war until everyone was in tech selling range, imposed a Viceroy, and then bought tech from them. Then they'd really love us if we were kind of sorry about it.
[/quote]

I won't deny my role in shaping GATO into what it is today. I was the one who proposed MDoAP as a viable option. I was the one who proposed our charter amendment to allow us to join CnG. I was the one who had ties to Athens to even get our relationship to CnG started a few years back. I also have a diplomatic mentality that slightly if not greatly differs from my more level headed counterparts, like Laslo here. It has permeated a bit through GATO making us a bit more war hungry and aggressive. Though there are a few more people than me to thank for that one.

What any of it has to do with NPO is beyond me. The way I am and the policies I push within GATO have nothing to do with any outside alliance and are simply what I think is best for my alliance. Time may certainly tell whether or not my positions are wise or not but I will never regret doing what I think is best and I will never apologize for it.

All that said, our relationship with NPO today has more to do with GATO's propensity for giving second chances to those that make an effort. NPO in our mind has made that effort. While the treaty coming out of the viceroy was probably a mistake(that was canceled), our new treaty was brought about by further understanding and better contemplation. That is where our situation differs from FAN it seems. We are willing to give people a second shot....they are not. It's really that simple.

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