Official Announcement from Colossus and WAPA

[Robster83]

I think the maxim attributed to Mark Twain is appropriate in this case -- “A banker is someone who lends you an umbrella when the weather is fine, and takes it away when it starts to rain”.

Poor show.

[Joseph Black]

Ferdinand I, let me give you a little bit of advice in this situation (this is advice and not me trying to be mean).

While nothing will happen to your alliance this war as a result of this action, I can guarantee you that your not making friends, you and your alliance look at best petty, and at worse a target. Karma has a way of coming back and biting alliances in their ass for these kinds of things (look at what GOD is going through now, no offense intended toward GOD.) If your lucky this will be just a bad PR hit, if your not the next time you loose a war you can expect to pay a great deal in reps (it will probably be to KoH) and they will be a great deal more than this. So do your alliance a favor, end this arguing with Tiga (your loosing and badly), cancel the reps, and can the ego.

[Mayzie]

Four pages? We're famous...and evil.

Requesting punitive reparations from an alliance who chose to get chained in on an oA to dogpile our allies after we sent them a load of rebuilding aid last war is truly a most heinous act & wasn't just to make a point that they pissed us off with that crap move.

Certainly comparable to anything GOD's done & I'm !@#$ting it for the day karma comes back for that 90m.

The terms were actually agreed upon a couple of weeks ago, while they had five larger nations in peace mode, before they left the alliance or disappeared.

E: Best of luck with the rebuilding guys.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Mayzie

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Mayzie' timestamp='1325759630' post='2893259']
Requesting punitive reparations from an alliance who chose to get chained in on an oA to dogpile our allies after we sent them a load of rebuilding aid last war is truly a most heinous act & wasn't just to make a point that they pissed us off with that crap move.
[/quote]

Hmm, so now it is "punitive reparations" yet earlier...

[quote name='Auctor' timestamp='1325727076' post='2892877']
KoH aren't being asked to pay reparations, merely to refund the rebuild aid send to them previously.
[/quote]

You guys need to get the message straight otherwise it just appears you are making it up as you go along.

[quote]
Certainly comparable to anything GOD's done & I'm !@#$ting it for the day karma comes back for that 90m.
[/quote]

You fail to grasp that this is not about the sum demanded but the reason for demanding it. Although perhaps you are grasping it as you are now changing the reasons for the cash grab?

[quote]
The terms were actually agreed upon a couple of weeks ago, while they had five larger nations in peace mode, before they left the alliance or disappeared.
[/quote]

And that changes things how?

[Mayzie]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1325761318' post='2893264']
Hmm, so now it is "punitive reparations" yet earlier...

You guys need to get the message straight otherwise it just appears you are making it up as you go along.

You fail to grasp that this is not about the sum demanded but the reason for demanding it. Although perhaps you are grasping it as you are now changing the reasons for the cash grab?

And that changes things how?
[/quote]

I explained why it was requested, just because I didn't say it like a cocky prick like others in the alliance doesn't mean I'm making it up. If we were really requesting all the aid back, it would be a lot more. What we're asking for was one round of aid from their top five nations because they pulled what we consider a !@#$ move.

You don't agree with our reasons, that's fine. What we should've done is forced an apology, make them vote for our senator & decommission all of their nukes, you'd have no problem with that.

That was for all those going on about the lack of upper tier nations KoH now has.

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Mayzie' timestamp='1325763534' post='2893277']
I explained why it was requested, just because I didn't say it like a cocky prick like others in the alliance doesn't mean I'm making it up. If we were really requesting all the aid back, it would be a lot more. What we're asking for was one round of aid from their top five nations because they pulled what we consider a !@#$ move.
[/quote]

I didn't consider Auctor's comment as cocky, he quite clearly said they payment was not reparations but purely a demand from you to pay back the rebuilding aid you sent them ages ago because they attacked a friend of yours in this war. The other posters weren't cocky either, they were just deluded to think their semi-coherent ramblings against me were equivalent to an argument against my opinion.

[quote]
You don't agree with our reasons, that's fine. What we should've done is forced an apology, make them vote for our senator & decommission all of their nukes, you'd have no problem with that.
[/quote]

If you thought they had something to apologise for and their potential use of nukes were a threat to you then yes, you should have done that. I don't consider KoH as having anything to apologise for and I doubt they are the type to shrug off peace terms and go nuclear on you. Other alliances, on the other hand, probably would given the chance. However, asking they repay rebuilding aid from ages ago because their treaty commitments saw them attack a friend of yours is just petty as I said.

[quote]
That was for all those going on about the lack of upper tier nations KoH now has.
[/quote]

Well, as far as I know only their current members can pay your demands so the lack of top tier nations is an issue.

[Mayzie]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1325764178' post='2893280']
I didn't consider Auctor's comment as cocky, he quite clearly said they payment was not reparations but purely a demand from you to pay back the rebuilding aid you sent them ages ago because they attacked a friend of yours in this war. The other posters weren't cocky either, they were just deluded to think their semi-coherent ramblings against me were equivalent to an argument against my opinion.

However, asking they repay rebuilding aid from ages ago because their treaty commitments saw them attack a friend of yours is just petty as I said.
[/quote]

I guess some of us see it differently in our alliance, having a difference of opinion on why the terms were necessary isn't a crime.

[quote name='Mayzie' timestamp='1325759630' post='2893259']
Who chose to get chained in on an oA to dogpile our allies
[/quote]

As I said before ^ Their treaty commitments did nothing of the sort. Their treaty commitments didn't require NpO to declare on WAPA to chain in KoH at all.

[Joseph Black]

[quote name='Mayzie' timestamp='1325765144' post='2893283']
I guess some of us see it differently in our alliance, having a difference of opinion on why the terms were necessary isn't a crime.

As I said before ^ Their treaty commitments did nothing of the sort. Their treaty commitments didn't require NpO to declare on WAPA to chain in KoH at all.
[/quote]

Having a difference of opinion on your forum is one thing, in public not so much. Doing it like this makes you look unstable and washy-washy.

[Mayzie]

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1325765557' post='2893284']
Having a difference of opinion on your forum is one thing, in public not so much. Doing it like this makes you look unstable and washy-washy.
[/quote]

Everyone has their opinion of why they consider the terms neccessary, if mine are different from others then so be it. I guess what I'm saying is the terms were agreeable amongst all our government due to multiple reasons, mine are those I've said here.

E: I'll remove the unneccessary washy washy comment, I see Wishywashy is reading this thread.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Mayzie

[nosoup4you]

Not going to read through all of the bickering, my apologies if this has already been pointed out...

After the last war, when it became clear that Polaris would be unable to help KoH rebuild, we offered to rebuild Hyrule [b]under the condition that they sell us tech[/b] (at $3M/50, I might add). Very soon afterward it became clear that we weren't going to be getting any tech out of the deal. We were informed that KoH had a deal with Polaris in which they were obligated to sell them their tech. It would have been nice to know this beforehand, though I doubt it would have changed anything. They were old friends of mine. I'd have still sent them the aid, I just felt a bit duped.

In light of recent events (KoH attacking my ally, on an oA clause, at the end of a long treaty chain), I'll be damned if I continue to try to play nursemaid to an alliance who obviously holds no allegiance toward me. It's time for Merk's kingdom to repay her debts, or at least a small portion. I am sure everyone here will agree that we've spent far more in preparing for this war than the paltry amount for which we've asked. I even offered a variety of payment methods. I agreed to forgo reps if they'd bring out their big hippy nation and nuke KaiserMilch and Ferdinand (my own members).

If it will placate the whiners...

/me sends 10 pixelated tons of grade A pixelated tiger meat to the starving pixelated people of the pixelated Kingdom of Hyrule

Edited January 5, 2012 by nosoup4you

[monkeybum]

Ok so I'm a GLOF member, and clearly have a side here, however this is how I see it.

1. KoH got aid out of Colossus.
2. Colossus and WAPA join a war together (WAPA joining to help Colossus).
3. KOH declares on WAPA - all those claiming that they didn't attack Colossus- and hence didn't backstab them are being silly. If you attack an ally while he is fighting for Colossus - that is clearly a move against Colossus.

4. The "reps" are really just KoH admitting that they acted wrongly by attacking those who had just given them free aid (and this was free and generous aid). The amount clearly is not intended to cover the actual amount spent by Colossus on this war, which I'm sure is much higher.

As for STA - We still have no personal feelings for you - we are actually all enjoying the war, and everyone in the alliance feels that you were friendly and good sports. Please lets keep it that way.

[Jyrinx]

[quote name='monkeybum' timestamp='1325768630' post='2893297']
Ok so I'm a GLOF member, and clearly have a side here, however this is how I see it.

1. KoH got aid out of Colossus.
2. Colossus and WAPA join a war together (WAPA joining to help Colossus).
3. KOH declares on WAPA - all those claiming that they didn't attack Colossus- and hence didn't backstab them are being silly. If you attack an ally while he is fighting for Colossus - that is clearly a move against Colossus.

4. The "reps" are really just KoH admitting that they acted wrongly by attacking those who had just given them free aid (and this was free and generous aid). The amount clearly is not intended to cover the actual amount spent by Colossus on this war, which I'm sure is much higher.

As for STA - We still have no personal feelings for you - we are actually all enjoying the war, and everyone in the alliance feels that you were friendly and good sports. Please lets keep it that way.
[/quote]

But here's the rub: was it made clear to KoH that KoH was expected to not attack an ally of Colossus for an undefined amount of time? There was a post earlier about an expectation to do tech deals after the reconstruction aid was given (but nobody else has mentioned that; someone clarifying it would be appreciated). But as far as I can tell, there was no NAP requirement with Colossus's allies.

All of us, and it's not just STA mind you, are criticizing this decision from Colossus not for the sum (although it is quite a bit given their size), but because you seem to be retroactively applying a stipulation for aid given. That's really not cool. KoH came in with Polar to help alleviate some burden on Polar's new front with WAPA. Disagree with their reasons if you will (although considering that WAPA also oAed into this war I find such criticism strange), but the point still stands: does Colossus think it's appropriate to put a stipulation on aid received after the fact? Most people would say no.

Look, there's nothing wrong with putting a stipulation on reconstruction aid. You just have to put that stipulation in place before someone accepts it.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Jyrinx

[nosoup4you]

[quote name='Jyrinx' timestamp='1325773589' post='2893325']
But here's the rub: was it made clear to KoH that KoH was expected to not attack an ally of Colossus for an undefined amount of time? There was a post earlier about an expectation to do tech deals after the reconstruction aid was given (but nobody else has mentioned that; someone clarifying it would be appreciated). But as far as I can tell, there was no NAP requirement with Colossus's allies.

All of us, and it's not just STA mind you, are criticizing this decision from Colossus not for the sum (although it is quite a bit given their size), but because you seem to be retroactively applying a stipulation for aid given. That's really not cool. KoH came in with Polar to help alleviate some burden on Polar's new front with WAPA. Disagree with their reasons if you will (although considering that WAPA also oAed into this war I find such criticism strange), but the point still stands: does Colossus think it's appropriate to put a stipulation on aid received after the fact? Most people would say no.

Look, there's nothing wrong with putting a stipulation on reconstruction aid. You just have to put that stipulation in place before someone accepts it.
[/quote]

It was [b]STIPULATED[/b] prior to their receipt of the aid that they'd pay tech. They never fulfilled their part of the contract and now we're here to collect on the debt. Think what you will about Colossus. I'm not really here to justify our actions, just to set the record straight.

[Jyrinx]

[quote name='nosoup4you' timestamp='1325774111' post='2893326']
It was [b]STIPULATED[/b] prior to their receipt of the aid that they'd pay tech. They never fulfilled their part of the contract and now we're here to collect on the debt. Think what you will about Colossus. I'm not really here to justify our actions, just to set the record straight.
[/quote]

Then why didn't you just stipulate that they had to do the tech deals with you? When was this aid sent btw (if it was mentioned in the thread then I apologize but I seem to have missed it)? Why didn't you guys try and get it earlier?

(I'm also a bit bemused as to why Colossus wouldn't claim this as the reason in the first place since, whether I agree with it or not, it definitely sounds much better than trying to claw back no stipulation aid)

[Auctor]

[quote name='Jyrinx' timestamp='1325775214' post='2893332']
Then why didn't you just stipulate that they had to do the tech deals with you? When was this aid sent btw (if it was mentioned in the thread then I apologize but I seem to have missed it)? Why didn't you guys try and get it earlier?

(I'm also a bit bemused as to why Colossus wouldn't claim this as the reason in the first place since, whether I agree with it or not, it definitely sounds much better than trying to claw back no stipulation aid)
[/quote]
What actually went on was that they agreed to do 3mil/50 tech deals after the aid wave to get them back on their feet. The tech deals just never happened. Wasn't really mentioned because we don't want tech deals with them now, just the portion of the rebuild aid we sent that was agreed upon.

[nosoup4you]

[quote name='Jyrinx' timestamp='1325775214' post='2893332']
(I'm also a bit bemused as to why Colossus wouldn't claim this as the reason in the first place since, whether I agree with it or not, it definitely sounds much better than trying to claw back no stipulation aid)
[/quote]

This likely was not mentioned sooner as it was MYSELF who made the original deal after the last war. I have been really sick over the last week (much to the glee of my battle opponents, right Tyga?) and just woke up to this thread this morning. The others, I imagine, were waiting on me to come set things straight as I was the one present at the time of the original contract. /me shrugs

Edited January 5, 2012 by nosoup4you

[Woref]

[quote name='Jyrinx' timestamp='1325773589' post='2893325']
But here's the rub: was it made clear to KoH that KoH was expected to not attack an ally of Colossus for an undefined amount of time? There was a post earlier about an expectation to do tech deals after the reconstruction aid was given (but nobody else has mentioned that; someone clarifying it would be appreciated). But as far as I can tell, there was no NAP requirement with Colossus's allies.[/quote]

Who the hell cares if it was stipulated? Colossus helped out KoH, KoH pulled a dick move on Colossus, Colossus defeated them, and Colossus is taking back that help. I don't see how it's shocking that an alliance is taking back aid that was used against them. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

[quote name='Jyrinx' timestamp='1325773589' post='2893325']
[...] because you seem to be retroactively applying a stipulation for aid given. That's really not cool. KoH came in with Polar to help alleviate some burden on Polar's new front with WAPA.[/quote]

BS. Polar didn't need any burden alleviated on our front. It barely existed. There were [i]maybe[/i] one or two wars, and KoH's DoW was the first most of us had heard about Polar being at war with us (they stuck the declaration in the DoW on STA thread). KoH could have easily been brought in on any front. They chose to hit an ally of Colossus.

[quote name='Jyrinx' timestamp='1325773589' post='2893325']Disagree with their reasons if you will (although considering that WAPA also oAed into this war I find such criticism strange),[/quote]

We oAed on an alliance to which we had no positive connection. KoH oAed on an alliance allied to someone who had helped them in the past and an ally of one of their other allies (CCC).

[quote name='Jyrinx' timestamp='1325773589' post='2893325']but the point still stands: does Colossus think it's appropriate to put a stipulation on aid received after the fact? Most people would say no.

Look, there's nothing wrong with putting a stipulation on reconstruction aid. You just have to put that stipulation in place before someone accepts it.
[/quote]

Think of it this way: if you win a war, you have a right to demand pretty much whatever you want (assuming you can get the loser to accept it). If you attack someone who gave you aid in the past, you shouldn't be upset if they want it back (and to KoH's credit, they don't seem to be upset).

[iwin90]

peace in our time

[monkeybum]

if you seriously think that you need to be told that when you receive aid from an alliance you shouldn't then go and attack that same alliance's ally (in a war which they are fighting for them) then you seriously lack a basic understanding of simple social morals.

[SWAT128]

[quote name='monkeybum' timestamp='1325779306' post='2893348']
if you seriously think that you need to be told that when you receive aid from an alliance you shouldn't then go and attack that same alliance's ally (in a war which they are fighting for them) then you seriously lack a basic understanding of simple social morals.
[/quote]

Unless there was a NAP clause with WAPA, I don't see how anyone could have a problem with what KoH did. WAPA attacked Polar, then got attacked by Polar's treaty partner in KoH.

[nosoup4you]

[quote name='SWAT128' timestamp='1325779762' post='2893350']
Unless there was a NAP clause with WAPA, I don't see how anyone could have a problem with what KoH did. WAPA attacked Polar, then got attacked by Polar's treaty partner in KoH.
[/quote]


Ummm...Polaris declared on WAPA (buried on like page 13 of an entirely unrelated thread) and then KoH came in on an oA.

Edited January 5, 2012 by nosoup4you

[SWAT128]

[quote name='nosoup4you' timestamp='1325780235' post='2893354']
Ummm...Polaris declared on WAPA (buried on like page 13 of an entirely unrelated thread) and then KoH came in on an oA.
[/quote]

Ah, my mistake. They were chained in to help out STA.

[Wishywashy]

[quote name='SWAT128' timestamp='1325779762' post='2893350']
Unless there was a NAP clause with WAPA, I don't see how anyone could have a problem with what KoH did. WAPA attacked Polar, then got attacked by Polar's treaty partner in KoH.
[/quote]
No one's claiming KoH had a contractual obligation to never attack one of Colossus' allies.

Also hello Mayzie.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Wishywashy

[monkeybum]

You don't need to find a "clause" to uphold common decency. That is the entire story here. KoH acted in unusually bad way, and hence Colossus wanted their aid given in "friendship" back.

[Charles the Great]

o/ AZTEC..........