The dawn of the Iron Age

[Monster]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1325652868' post='2891989']
Given the constraints we operated under, I am pretty satisfied with how this was planned. And even more satisfied with how it went.

The NS advantage, given our constraints, was never more than 1.2 to 1. The difference isn't in the NS. It's in the experience behind that NS. And in the will to fight. We have it, they don't.

I am willing to hear what you'd have done differently, however.

As for the Asgaard shot, given your alliance, I'll just laugh.
[/quote]

It's not really so much a criticism of the coalition planning in itself. I know there were factors out of your control. I'm just targeting Denial's idiotic revisionism about another war, which he has freely propagated without abandon for six months. Same goes for MK in general. Maybe he can plan the next one through forum pms.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Roquentin

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1325643461' post='2891873']
How exactly? All I've said is MK wanted to attack NPO out of the blue for months before it actually happened.
[/quote]

This topic is quite hilarious and I rather liked it when Roq and Krack were just bouncing conspiracy theories off of each other. But this comment in particular I've found quite amusing. Actions speak louder than words, Roq, you should know this.

In the lead-up to the BiPolar we trolled TOP a ton - yet they preempted us. The MK membership wanted to roll NPO for months, but come the war we made our tactical decision to strike, much to the thanks of your little brain trust. Even this war, despite our interests in seeing SF taken down, it was RIA's mindnumbingly awful idea to treaty Polar and Fark's subsequent strike on Pacifica that actually dug their grave.

[Monster]

[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1325653220' post='2891993']
This topic is quite hilarious and I rather liked it when Roq and Krack were just bouncing conspiracy theories off of each other. But this comment in particular I've found quite amusing. Actions speak louder than words, Roq, you should know this.

In the lead-up to the BiPolar we trolled TOP a ton - yet they preempted us. The MK membership wanted to roll NPO for months, but come the war we made our tactical decision to strike, much to the thanks of your little brain trust. Even this war, despite our interests in seeing SF taken down, it was RIA's mindnumbingly awful idea to treaty Polar and Fark's subsequent strike on Pacifica that actually dug their grave.
[/quote]

Um, 1337 guy, Archon literally wanted to do it and we had to stop it when the VE/NpO stuff began.

I haven't ever disputed that SF/XX did themselves in. I have been putting forth that theory as much as possible. The ARES ties made them connected to Polar anyway. Fark was going to honor the ODoAP if you hit on the TOP/IRON thing.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Roquentin

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Krack' timestamp='1325563671' post='2891205']
I'm told FOK did not have one single internal discussion about dropping their treaty with FARK until Ardus came and told them to do it.
[/quote]

You made my day.

[Monster]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1325653346' post='2891996']
You made my day.
[/quote]

I'm not really sure why that is the case. I mean, it's kind of ridiculous to require an external party to come over to push something that was plenty justifiable on its own.

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1325653320' post='2891995']
Um, 1337 guy, Archon literally wanted to do it and we had to stop it when the VE/NpO stuff began.
[/quote]

As Krack pointed out earlier, you continue to talk about things you wished happened or potentially could have happened, while everyone else talks about tangible events that actually occurred.

[Monster]

[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1325653847' post='2892001']
As Krack pointed out earlier, you continue to talk about things you wished happened or potentially could have happened, while everyone else talks about tangible events that actually occurred.
[/quote]

Yes, because it wasn't a serious matter at all.

edit: I wouldn't push this one if I were you, because I can more than prove it.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Roquentin

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1325642951' post='2891860']
A war where minimal damage has been taken by TOP/IRON, Doomhouse, and blocs we consider friends (C&G, PB, Mjolnir, PF), whilst all opponents are thoroughly defeated and in ruins? Not to mention that targets were assigned so well as to allow many alliances to finally settle long-term grudges. Not planned any better? Oh, please. This current effort was like the Gallic Wars; your effort was a little more like Vietnam.
[/quote]

To be fair, whoever planned this war $%&@ed ASG, LoSS, TSA, and a few other friends pretty hard. Mainly because it appears we're taking orders from someone on the other side.

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1325653444' post='2891997']
I'm not really sure why that is the case. I mean, it's kind of ridiculous to require an external party to come over to push something that was plenty justifiable on its own.
[/quote]

I made that up in the FOK-FARK cancellation thread, and then claimed I had private embassy post to prove it. Either Krack still believes my rumor or I randomly made something up that happens out to be true. Either way, it makes me happy.

[Gibsonator21]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1325652868' post='2891989']
The NS advantage, given our constraints, was never more than 1.2 to 1. The difference isn't in the NS. It's in the experience behind that NS. And in the will to fight. We have it, they don't.
[/quote]
I've got it down that you outnumber the other side roughly 1.7 to 1 NS.

Edit: That's total, not a single front.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Gibsonator21

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1325653899' post='2892002']
Yes, because it wasn't a serious matter at all.

edit: I wouldn't push this one if I were you, because I can more than prove it.
[/quote]

I'm not even denying what you're saying! I'm just pointing out your arguments are fruitless considering it does not effect how events actually played out. But go ahead, log dump Archon or whatever the hell that veiled threat is about, I'm sure that will really gain you brownie points with whatever wall you're ranting to right now.

[Seerow]

[quote name='Gibsonator21' timestamp='1325654249' post='2892011']
I've got it down that you outnumber the other side roughly 1.7 to 1 NS.

Edit: That's total, not a single front.
[/quote]

Is that using current NS or pre-war NS? Because if it's current that would explain the discrepancy.

[Gibsonator21]

[quote name='Seerow' timestamp='1325655039' post='2892021']
Is that using current NS or pre-war NS? Because if it's current that would explain the discrepancy.
[/quote]
Pre-war NS.

[Monster]

[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1325654808' post='2892018']
I'm not even denying what you're saying! I'm just pointing out your arguments are fruitless considering it does not effect how events actually played out. But go ahead, log dump Archon or whatever the hell that veiled threat is about, I'm sure that will really gain you brownie points with whatever wall you're ranting to right now.
[/quote]

I'm not going to, but simply, it was a serious issue.

[Lord Fingolfin]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1325654087' post='2892007']
To be fair, whoever planned this war $%&@ed ASG, LoSS, TSA, and a few other friends pretty hard. Mainly because it appears we're taking orders from someone on the other side.
[/quote]

To be fair I don't think it was intentional, really just a bi-product of FOK threatening to attack if anyone hit R&R from what I understand, hence the alliances on that front having difficulties. Which is really a shame.

[Monster]

[quote name='Lord Fingolfin' timestamp='1325657762' post='2892076']
To be fair I don't think it was intentional, really just a bi-product of FOK threatening to attack if anyone hit R&R from what I understand, hence the alliances on that front having difficulties. Which is really a shame.
[/quote]

I mean, at least you were told in advance. I wish VE had been afforded such a luxury before declaring on NpO. I think Asg/LoSS could have handled it if they were fully focused, but they were kind of split. It's not like R&R is an elite military alliance.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Lord Fingolfin' timestamp='1325657762' post='2892076']
To be fair I don't think it was intentional, really just a bi-product of FOK threatening to attack if anyone hit R&R from what I understand, hence the alliances on that front having difficulties. Which is really a shame.
[/quote]

Well, It'd be nice if the rest of MJ hadn't went and hit CSN for kicks, and left two of their other allies (including a bloc mate) out in the cold though.

[Monster]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1325658155' post='2892083']
Well, It'd be nice if the rest of MJ hadn't went and hit CSN for kicks, and left two of their other allies (including a bloc mate) out in the cold though.
[/quote]

The FOK issue would still be in play, maybe some ghosts would have been good. Keep in mind, my current AA isn't an indication of my stances on the current war which are not side related.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1325658311' post='2892086']
The FOK issue would still be in play, maybe some ghosts would have been good. Keep in mind, my current AA isn't an indication of my stances on the current war which are not side related.
[/quote]

Still I'm not sure how you leave a bloc mate out there in the cold. Especially since CSN wasn't coming in anymore anyway.

[Monster]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1325658464' post='2892090']
Still I'm not sure how you leave a bloc mate out there in the cold. Especially since CSN wasn't coming in anymore anyway.
[/quote]

Because it could have escalated into something ugly. I mean, it was pretty lame of CSN to try to wiggle out of the war when they're responsible for a lot of the animus towards their bloc.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Roquentin

[Zoomzoomzoom]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1325658464' post='2892090']
Still I'm not sure how you leave a bloc mate out there in the cold. Especially since CSN wasn't coming in anymore anyway.
[/quote]

You can hardly blame anyone who planned the war for that. That is entirely on Mj.

[Bob]

[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' timestamp='1325658609' post='2892094']
You can hardly blame anyone who planned the war for that. That is entirely on Mj.
[/quote]
Remind me, who was originally planning to be on GOD? The whole MK situation put Asgaard into a bad place inevitably.

On top of that, DT/RoK would have served to counter FOK, not fight RnR. This means that the relief for Asg could not have been offered by DT/RoK.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Penlugue Solaris

[Schad]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1325658026' post='2892081']
I mean, at least you were told in advance. I wish VE had been afforded such a luxury before declaring on NpO. I think Asg/LoSS could have handled it if they were fully focused, but they were kind of split. It's not like R&R is an elite military alliance.
[/quote]

Both are fighting almost exclusively against R&R. However, military power or no, R&R has and had a much greater concentration of nations in mid-tier than Asgaard + LoSS.

[Lord Fingolfin]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1325658155' post='2892083']
Well, It'd be nice if the rest of MJ hadn't went and hit CSN for kicks, and left two of their other allies (including a bloc mate) out in the cold though.
[/quote]

DT/ROK hitting R&R would just result in FOK hitting them, effectively negating any assistance on R&R since I imagine FOK would be able to deal with them quite handily. It would serve only to create animosity between MJ and PB. ASG is getting shafted to be sure, but there isn't an easy solution out there unless MJ members go and ghost ASG. Same thing happened to PC last war, the difference is simply that PC was able to demolish RoK.

EDIT: It would probably also help if LOSS didn't have half of its top 40 in PM. This is a war that ASG and LoSS should win

Second edit: posting in the wee hours of the morning wreaks havoc with your grammar

Edited January 4, 2012 by Lord Fingolfin

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1325658546' post='2892092']
Because it could have escalated into something ugly.
[/quote]

Wars aren't meant to be pretty.

[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' timestamp='1325658609' post='2892094']
You can hardly blame anyone who planned the war for that. That is entirely on Mj.
[/quote]

That's true, it'd be nice if someone else got them some help somewhere though.

ASG has been !@#$ted on this entire war. First someone pre-empted their allies that weren't entering, their bloc mates refuse to come help them, then another of their allies changed sides, they try to call in a slight bit of relief in TSA and of course they're dog piled on while being cheered on by people supposedly on their "side". If I was them I'd be making a long hit list right now.

Of course, no one is going to come to their defense. No one wants to upset FOK or VE, they'd much rather taken an easier target, or they want to look cool and hit someone they had beef with in the past. This war absolutely disgusts me.

[Gibsonator21]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1325658546' post='2892092']
Because it could have escalated into something ugly. I mean, it was pretty lame of CSN to try to wiggle out of the war when they're responsible for a lot of the animus towards their bloc.
[/quote]
There was no wiggling. You can query me or PM me if you want to discuss it.

[quote name='Lord Fingolfin' timestamp='1325658868' post='2892101']
They got shafted to be sure, but there isn't an easy situation out unless MJ members went and ghosted ASG to help them out. Same thing happened to PC last war, the difference is simply that PC was able to demolish RoK.
[/quote]

They already have/had a couple.