The dawn of the Iron Age

[Johnny Apocalypse]

This thread is no longer pretty great.

[Daimos]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1326251273' post='2897173']
Though I'd really like to avoid engaging you in any way that will make you focus on Cybernations, I feel it necessary to argue that MK was significant for a long period in which Umbrella was not. Umbrella's influence did not, by any means, build MK's influence. It could be argued, though perhaps not fully, that MK's influence played a large part in building that of Umbrella.
[/quote]

have to somewhat agree with this statement. Never knew anything about Umbrella leading to the DH/NPO war. I do not even know where Umbrella fought in Karma. VE was the main focus of NPO leading to that war. I think VE does not get enough credit on the role they played in Karma.

[janax]

[quote name='Daimos' timestamp='1326291852' post='2897394']
have to somewhat agree with this statement. Never knew anything about Umbrella leading to the DH/NPO war. I do not even know where Umbrella fought in Karma. VE was the main focus of NPO leading to that war. I think VE does not get enough credit on the role they played in Karma.
[/quote]


Umbrella fought Valhalla in Karma, and also technically Zenith, since they ghosted us in to help PC.

[Bill Wallace]

[quote name='Daimos' timestamp='1326291852' post='2897394']I think VE does not get enough credit on the role they played in Karma.
[/quote]

I blame Schattenmanalamadingdong.

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Yggdrazil' timestamp='1326250454' post='2897166']
Of course they wouldn't!
Without Umbrella the Mushroom Kingdom would not had the core requirement for it to develope.Now that the influence is established, Umbrella is not as significant to MK's infuence as it once was.
[/quote]
huh what bro

[shahenshah]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1326258126' post='2897242']
Oh, well, now that Crymson has told us we can all go home now, nothing to see here folks.
[/quote]
Actually Crymson's right.

[Zoomzoomzoom]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1326287218' post='2897372']
This thread is no longer pretty great.
[/quote]

Yeah, the replies are too long now.

Short, effective insults/retorts people. C'mon!

[Goldie]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326277485' post='2897345']
The two main issues at the onset were "How are we going to handle NPO and IRON?" due to Karma's lack of real upper tiers( I recall the biggest Umbrella nation was like #67 when compared to NPO) which resulted in stuff like Kingdom of Dark getting out of PM hitting some VE/RoK nations and going back in.
[/quote]

I'm still waiting for Sparta to finally hold some of those NPO guys in war mode.

[shahenshah]

Sparta's being smartest of the XX grouping in this war as far as fighting is concerned. FARK did no idea what at start. MHA sat in war mode for weeks deciding what to do until it was decided for them, R&R kinda sat down and had a beer with FOK, so we dont really know of R&R's abilities when under pressure. Leaving Sparta, who is still fighting along with FARK and not having itself completely exposed.

Edited January 11, 2012 by shahenshah

[Blue Lightning]

[quote name='janax' timestamp='1326247456' post='2897139']
I am underrated. It's underrated how underrated I am. I am [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLV9LstbmAo"]outstanding.[/url]
[/quote]
He said "[i]successful[/i] alliance leader".

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1326262521' post='2897280']
Really? With those alliances in that time period you couldn't put 2 and 2 together? It's common knowledge that anyone who worked with Gre was anti-NPO at that point..

(Just so we're on the same page this was the Bastion post-Gre leaving Q, correct?)

EDIT: I mean I've heard the TOP speed joke, but I thought that meant a different kind of slow...
[/quote]
In hindsight I think it had more to do with the fact that we were still very much connected with NPO up until the Karma war. They were our oldest ally and possibly our closest outside of Citadel. It would have been weird and risky for Umbrella and Gremlins to come to us and say "Oh, by the way, we're working towards the destruction of your ally". We knew they didn't see eye to eye, but both sides regularly assured us that they would stay neutral unless provoked.

I'm not suggesting they were secretly plotting for months while deliberately keeping us in the dark. My impression was that Karma was a more spontaneous thing for Grem/Umb, and was more about ceasing an opportunity than some long-term plan.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Blue Lightning' timestamp='1326310361' post='2897490']
I'm not suggesting they were secretly plotting for months while deliberately keeping us in the dark. My impression was that Karma was a more spontaneous thing for Grem/Umb, and was more about ceasing an opportunity than some long-term plan.
[/quote]

They had been plotting for some time, and Gre attacking IRON was in large part done in order to discourage a counter-response from us against those at war with IRON. This was done because Umbrella and Gre were completely unsure of where we'd side.

So yes, it was all done behind our back.

[Monster]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1326310559' post='2897492']
They had been plotting for some time, and Gre attacking IRON was in large part done in order to discourage a counter-response from us against those at war with IRON. This was done because Umbrella and Gre were completely unsure of where we'd side.

So yes, it was all done behind our back.
[/quote]


I wouldn't say that either really, Crymson. Saber was aware of what our desires were when he got elected to GM in that year(XVII Council
(Feb. 2009 - Apr. 2009)). His worry was opposing NPO would be a losing cause and that TOP had plenty of internal projects to keep them entertained. It was debated in the top 3 chan of Citadel on the rare occasion where it was used.

The fact that the original bloc attempt was snubbed by TOP is another thing.

Anyway, NPO-ruled Bob was a really bad place with real wars of extermination. I think GATO ended up at like 300k NS after NPO was done with them. FAN was in similar dire straits. The CIS thing where the former members had to be PoWs for months was pretty bad too. http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=31551

That is 3 months of not really being able to do anything.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Roquentin

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='shahenshah' timestamp='1326300157' post='2897422']
Actually Crymson's right.
[/quote]


Well, now that I know at least two that disagree am I entitled to insult others because of my opinion?

Edited January 11, 2012 by IYIyTh

[shahenshah]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1326315020' post='2897541']
Well, now that I know at least two that disagree am I entitled to insult others because of my opinion?
[/quote]
What insults?

[enderland]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326277485' post='2897345']
I'm not trying to overemphasize on an individual level. LM was the best choice since he had said he spent months working out the war in advance and the fact that he was in Gre(he hadn't done it before), when we were iffy about what their gov would do. He wasn't Gov at the time(knocked out of Executor in an election), so it was a tricky situation to begin with. He was not in the Citadel government channels and did not know about anyone's intentions outside of possibly his own alliance. Even then it was pretty iffy as to where they'd actually go in terms of deployment due to the ToAs.

The two main issues at the onset were "How are we going to handle NPO and IRON?" due to Karma's lack of real upper tiers( I recall the biggest Umbrella nation was like #67 when compared to NPO) which resulted in stuff like Kingdom of Dark getting out of PM hitting some VE/RoK nations and going back in.
[/quote]

This brings back lots of fond memories from Karma and the months leading up to it...

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='shahenshah' timestamp='1326315659' post='2897545']
What insults?
[/quote]


The other user was commentating what he expected for voicing his mind and it is ironically proven in this very thread around six pages ago.

Telling him he's wrong when there's such beckoning evidence to the contrary is at the least wrong, and at the most insulting.

Edited January 11, 2012 by IYIyTh

[chefjoe]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326312645' post='2897510']
The CIS thing where the former members had to be PoWs for months was pretty bad too. http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=31551

That is 3 months of not really being able to do anything.
[/quote]

No different then the 90 days aid restriction and other terms you imposed upon Valhalla so quit talking out your neck about how you feel about such 'horrible' things.

Hypocrit >_>

[Bob Janova]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1326310559' post='2897492']
They had been plotting for some time, and Gre attacking IRON was in large part done in order to discourage a counter-response from us against those at war with IRON. This was done because Umbrella and Gre were completely unsure of where we'd side.

So yes, it was all done behind our back.
[/quote]
That is not true on either count regarding us. Grämlins would never commit to any sort of anti-NPO or anti-Continuum 'plot' in the pre-Karma era, largely because of our alliances with TOP, MHA and to a lesser extent FOK and their entanglement with the NPO. We were always going to be in play for the defensive side in a major war, as we said we'd defend our friends in need and we had friends all over the web. I remember explaining our position on this to someone in TOP (I think it was Saber) over Hangout during the Int/VE incident a little before Karma. In the end the Karma war brought Fark into a position where they needed that help, and it did also lie with a large part of our internal political will.

Grämlins' deployment on IRON was simply because the other alliances refused to take on that top tier. If it had been suggested as an anti-TOP measure I doubt we'd have agreed to do it; such a thing never crossed my mind until now.

And yes, #collective was created for the Int/VE incident when it looked like that might go 'hot'. It was re-used for the rumoured hit on PC by Continuum, and the group of alliances that came together to prepare emergency defence plans was similar to that which eventually reused the channel for Karma.

[enderland]

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1326318347' post='2897575']
No different then the 90 days aid restriction and other terms you imposed upon Valhalla so quit talking out your neck about how you feel about such 'horrible' things.

Hypocrit >_>
[/quote]

Thanks for reminding me of all the flak we got for those terms, too...

Edited January 11, 2012 by enderland

[Krack]

nm

Edited January 12, 2012 by Krack

[Monster]

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1326318347' post='2897575']
No different then the 90 days aid restriction and other terms you imposed upon Valhalla so quit talking out your neck about how you feel about such 'horrible' things.

Hypocrit >_>
[/quote]

Um, you could still move aid internally. You do realize most people wanted Echelon or NPO style reps imposed on you right? And that Archon said you got a slap on the wrist? And I put forward enderland's post.

I guess pushing all of Valhalla into tech selling range is more the equivalent of what I was talking about.

[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1242016012' post='1517461']
After how this alliance hunted my alliance down, attempted to extort tech from us and dragged us into the noCB war by attempting to blackmail chickenzilla, these terms are [b]way[/b] too light.

On the other hand, I am glad my allies in Umbrella and friends in Kronos have peace.
[/quote]

Edited January 12, 2012 by Roquentin

[Monster]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1326324849' post='2897649']
That is not true on either count regarding us. Grämlins would never commit to any sort of anti-NPO or anti-Continuum 'plot' in the pre-Karma era, largely because of our alliances with TOP, MHA and to a lesser extent FOK and their entanglement with the NPO. We were always going to be in play for the defensive side in a major war, as we said we'd defend our friends in need and we had friends all over the web. I remember explaining our position on this to someone in TOP (I think it was Saber) over Hangout during the Int/VE incident a little before Karma. In the end the Karma war brought Fark into a position where they needed that help, and it did also lie with a large part of our internal political will.

Grämlins' deployment on IRON was simply because the other alliances refused to take on that top tier. If it had been suggested as an anti-TOP measure I doubt we'd have agreed to do it; such a thing never crossed my mind until now.

And yes, #collective was created for the Int/VE incident when it looked like that might go 'hot'. It was re-used for the rumoured hit on PC by Continuum, and the group of alliances that came together to prepare emergency defence plans was similar to that which eventually reused the channel for Karma.
[/quote]


Um, Bob Janova, how is it an anti-TOP measure to avoid provoking them into attacking MK? The ToAs simply shouldn't have existed at all by that point(Gre did not like NPO) and MHA had the MDP with RoK too, so I think Harmlins overrides anyway. It was a legit concern for me based on the rhetoric in #lux from certain TOP gov. I forget what ranking the biggest Umbrella nation matched up with regards to IRON, it wasn't very high.

If you had at least cancelled NPO, you could have gone there from the beginning and other people would have been free for IRON, but you didn't do either, so the hand was forced with RoK and it allowed us to fight Valhalla(more of a suitable match, as I've mentioned, Umbrella was not an upper tier power at the time.) Most elite alliances outside of TOP/Gre had nothing in terms of top tiers. and NV/AZTEC to help out with MCXA. MK was also able to deploy on TPF who were still fairly large.

I mean seriously, you had some of the largest nations in the game(domination over the top 5) and had never had to fight a war since GW3 against formidable opponents(Hell, Illuminati doesn't even count). No one comes close even now. New Syzygia, MOTUMANIACS, sierra leone don't exist anymore but they were bigger than pretty much everyone~

FallenSeraphim still does though.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Roquentin

[chefjoe]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326337672' post='2897814']
Um, you could still move aid internally. You do realize most people wanted Echelon or NPO style reps imposed on you right? And that Archon said you got a slap on the wrist? And I put forward enderland's post.

I guess pushing all of Valhalla into tech selling range is more the equivalent of what I was talking about.
[/quote]

I was not replying to anyone else Roq. I was replying directly to you're expression of distaste in regards to the 90 days of setback CIS incurred in those terms(They could also move aid internally) and you're participation in doing the [i]same thing[/i] to someone else.

Now you are using comments and feelings of others to justify your own hypocrisy,which is just sad imo, so either what NPO(and in turn yourself)did by hampering an alliances rebuilding thru surrender terms is wrong or you are being a hypocrite. I really see no middle ground there.

Edited January 12, 2012 by chefjoe

[Bob Janova]

[quote]The ToAs simply shouldn't have existed at all by that point[/quote]
We actually were improving relations with IRON, that ToA actually represented something. The one with NPO was, I think, seen by both ends as a 'we don't like each other but we promise not to start trouble', a kind of super-NAP (not sure if anyone from NPO gov at that time is still around to confirm their side).

[Monster]

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1326403310' post='2898236']
I was not replying to anyone else Roq. I was replying directly to you're expression of distaste in regards to the 90 days of setback CIS incurred in those terms(They could also move aid internally) and you're participation in doing the [i]same thing[/i] to someone else.

Now you are using comments and feelings of others to justify your own hypocrisy,which is just sad imo, so either what NPO(and in turn yourself)did by hampering an alliances rebuilding thru surrender terms is wrong or you are being a hypocrite. I really see no middle ground there.
[/quote]

CIS couldn't move aid internally, because there was no longer any CIS. The alliance had disbanded at the beginning of the war and the members had to individually surrender under the terms that they couldn't join or form an alliance for 3 months. There was no CIS to rebuild.

Hampering an alliance through surrender terms is dependent on the degree. I'm not sure how you can argue there is no middle ground, Chefjoe. If I were to demand 40k tech from the Dark Templar's upper tier nations, it will harm them more than imposing an outside aid clause.

Or how's this? Let's say the one month no aid at all clause used in PB-NpO was imposed on someone else for 3 months, it would surely set them back a lot more.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Roquentin