The dawn of the Iron Age

[Monster]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1326253765' post='2897206']
Unless I'm missing an inside joke or something, what does that have to do with Karma?
[/quote]

That's my question too.

NG wanted XX smashed, sure. I'm not really trying to dispute that.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326253680' post='2897205']
Um, how does that reflect on my post?
[/quote]
I interpreted the first part of your post as speaking to this most recent war, not Karma. If I am incorrect, then I am incorrect.

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1326252909' post='2897197']
I'm not in the Mushroom Kingdom. I'm a member of an alliance which holds an MDP with yours that is the oldest in the game. I'm telling you quite pointedly that you're incorrect.
[/quote]

Oh, well, now that Crymson has told us we can all go home now, nothing to see here folks.

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1326253569' post='2897202']
You say that as though MK was the only one of your allies who wanted Dos Equis smashed.
[/quote]

And the truth shall set you free.

[Feanor Noldorin]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326252822' post='2897195']
Our original line up was the original Bastion: MHA/Sparta/Gre/Umb/TOP, but then we met other people lol
[/quote]
The original Bastion was a mixture of SF and Citadel. Are you talking about the Hangout which included FOK and FARK? If so that never worked out (on our side) for the simple reason that no one bothered to let us know that your overall goal was bringing down NPO.

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1326258161' post='2897243']
And the truth shall set you free.
[/quote]
I wanted XX smashed.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Feanor Noldorin

[Monster]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1326259923' post='2897256']
The original Bastion was a mixture of SF and Citadel. Are you talking about the Hangout which included FOK and FARK? If so that never worked out (on our side) for the simple reason that no one bothered to let us know that your overall goal was bringing down NPO.


==[/quote]
No, the original Bastion line-up was what I mentioned. MHA had developed a similar idea at the time(tattler refers to that). You didn't want to do it and we met the SFs after that. Syzygy said he'd be fine with us doing it, but I was trying to explain it to him that I couldn't get it passed without Gre signing on and then I got chewed out by Boondock for wanting to do anything at all. I would have included FCC if it could make a difference but there were concerns about no one knowing them and gov IRC activity.


http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/The_Tattler/Bastion

Hangout was after &(Bastion 2nd) failed and was Chill's initiative to throw us a bone.

How did you not know we were doing that? I mean Umb/FCC/Gre had been firmly anti-Q/1V within Citadel for a while. I thought it was pretty well implied.

edit: I always thought it odd how difficult it was to get TOP on point with leaving Q or anything since the alliance was composed of a lot of people whose alliances had gotten wrecked or disbanded by NPO like Legion(Chalaskan comes to mind), ONOS, VE(you), etc.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Roquentin

[SWAT128]

Bastion would have been a pretty awesome bloc, shame it never happened.

[Monster]

[quote name='SWAT128' timestamp='1326261791' post='2897270']
Bastion would have been a pretty awesome bloc, shame it never happened.
[/quote]

But it did(Bastion 3rd), you are referring to Ampersand. I think Emperor Norton I came up with &.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Roquentin

[New Frontier]

[quote name='Yggdrazil' timestamp='1326250454' post='2897166']
Of course they wouldn't!
Without Umbrella the Mushroom Kingdom would not had the core requirement for it to develope.Now that the influence is established, Umbrella is not as significant to MK's infuence as it once was.
[/quote]
this is great

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326252822' post='2897195']
Considering we kind of handed a coalition we spent months building in conjunction with other parties to MK on a silver platter, I don't really agree. Was it unruly yes? There was still a lot of work put into it, though.
[/quote]

Can you clarify what war/coalition this is referring to?

[Monster]

[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1326261952' post='2897273']
Can you clarify what war/coalition this is referring to?
[/quote]

Karma, in which MK first took a role as a major player.

[SWAT128]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326261837' post='2897271']
But it did(Bastion 3rd), you are referring to Ampersand.
[/quote]

Was that the name you guys were going to go with? I always thought the one SF was being included in would still be called Bastion. Besides, the Bastion that actually existed was nothing like would could have been.

[Monster]

[quote name='SWAT128' timestamp='1326262058' post='2897275']
Was that the name you guys were going to go with? I always thought the one SF was being included in would still be called Bastion. Besides, the Bastion that actually existed was nothing like would could have been.
[/quote]

Yes. People didn't like the name after more thought was put in. "Bastion seems a bit heavy on the nose." - THRILLHO

[Unknown Smurf]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1326259923' post='2897256']
The original Bastion was a mixture of SF and Citadel. Are you talking about the Hangout which included FOK and FARK? If so that never worked out (on our side) for the simple reason that no one bothered to let us know that your overall goal was bringing down NPO.
[/quote]

Really? With those alliances in that time period you couldn't put 2 and 2 together? It's common knowledge that anyone who worked with Gre was anti-NPO at that point..

(Just so we're on the same page this was the Bastion post-Gre leaving Q, correct?)

EDIT: I mean I've heard the TOP speed joke, but I thought that meant a different kind of slow...

Edited January 11, 2012 by Unknown Smurf

[Monster]

Yes, but Gre wasn't really proactive in doing anything. They had taken forever to leave Q and didn't want to do a bloc after that. It was a constant question we had asked people in Gre, "when are you leaving Q?" since we wanted it to happen.

Basically, what happened with Karma was Archon was the first person to step up to the plate and write a speech and everyone was fine with him doing it. Actually, no, I think some complained after he did it.

MK hadn't really been really proactive on the political front in terms of coalition-building due to the previous war and had adopted a weird attitude of doing things like PIATing NPO. I would say Vanguard was the more proactive C&G alliance.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Roquentin

[Sandwich Controversy]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1326262521' post='2897280']
Really? With those alliances in that time period you couldn't put 2 and 2 together? It's common knowledge that anyone who worked with Gre was anti-NPO at that point..

(Just so we're on the same page this was the Bastion post-Gre leaving Q, correct?)

EDIT: I mean I've heard the TOP speed joke, but I thought that meant a different kind of slow...
[/quote]
You're too stupid to even properly manage an awards poll, you shouldn't be criticizing others.

[Rafael Nadal]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326262616' post='2897281']
Yes, but Gre wasn't really proactive in doing anything. They had taken forever to leave Q and didn't want to do a bloc after that. It was a constant question we had asked people in Gre, "when are you leaving Q?" since we wanted it to happen.

Basically, what happened with Karma was Archon was the first person to step up to the plate and write a speech and everyone was fine with him doing it. Actually, no, I think some complained after he did it.

[b]MK hadn't really been really proactive on the political front in terms of coalition-building due to the previous war and had adopted a weird attitude of doing things like PIATing NPO. I would say Vanguard was the more proactive C&G alliance.[/b]
[/quote]
I wouldn't say Vanguard was the more pro-active CnG alliance (at least not at the start). One of Vanguard's initial operating principles was keeping an extremely low profile. MK's publicity afforded them some protection/sympathy even though they were clearly in the crosshairs of NPO and others. We, on the other hand, didn't have a solid base of support (hence us intentionally staying out of the public eye). It wasn't until the Legion-Universalis conflict that we had any real OWF notoriety. From there, things got rolling pretty quickly. Obviously, we ended up in CnG with the absorption of TDSM8. Remember that MK was already in CnG when we joined. No disrespect to the other members, but it was clearly, to the public, MK's bloc. Once we were afforded the stability and protection from our LUE pasts, along with wielding more overall NS towards similar goals, I'd say that MK and Vanguard we're both equally pro-active. Vanguard initially operated from a separate sphere of allies (ODN, Echelon, Rok, SLCB, etc). It wasn't until a bit later on that Vanguard pared down its treaty list (MK would much more publicly pare its list down ). An accurate comment about Vanguard/myself would be Denial's assessment of my game views during a recent internal discussion: "Rafa gets an honourable mention, but his views needs to be balanced out in any FA team (has a tendency to have great ideas, but 3 months too early for them to be feasible)." I suppose the best example would be Vanguard leaving OUT, at a time when color politics were still "important", which was my first act as Sovereign after Denial stepped down.

Anyway, long story short, I'd say MK was more pro-active in the beginning before Vanguard's involvement in Legion-Universalis and our admittance to CnG. Vanguard shot from 0-60 in no time after that. Then we merged. I'd reason that we were about equal.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Rafael Nadal

[Denial]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326262616' post='2897281']
Yes, but Gre wasn't really proactive in doing anything. They had taken forever to leave Q and didn't want to do a bloc after that. It was a constant question we had asked people in Gre, "when are you leaving Q?" since we wanted it to happen.

Basically, what happened with Karma was Archon was the first person to step up to the plate and write a speech and everyone was fine with him doing it. Actually, no, I think some complained after he did it.

MK hadn't really been really proactive on the political front in terms of coalition-building due to the previous war and had adopted a weird attitude of doing things like PIATing NPO. I would say Vanguard was the more proactive C&G alliance.
[/quote]
Almost everyone likes to take credit for being the mastermind or prime architect of Karma; you appear to have tried it just a few posts back, claiming to hand Mushroom Kingdom a coalition on a silver platter. The truth of that era is that it was an aligning of the stars - multiple talented leaders, from various power spheres, working towards roughly the same goals. Unlike the Hegemony (and later, ex-Hegemony) propaganda at the time, there was no grand and detailed scheme, laid down months ahead, by those that would eventually comprise Karma (though some of us had hoped and planned for something like it). A great deal of luck was involved in the Karma conflict unravelling the way it did; for quite some time, in the week leading up to the NPO declaration of war, it appeared as if Vanguard, VE and GOD - and thus C&G and Super Friends - would stand alone in the inevitable defence of their treaty partners in Ordo Verde. Support for the war from some parts came hesitantly and reluctantly.

Of course, that's not to say there weren't leaders and alliances that were more proactive than others. Archon, I believe, would be the first to admit that Mushroom Kingdom receives more credit (and blame) for Karma than it warrants or even desired; it was the general public, following Archon's first speech, that gave MK a figurehead position at the front of Karma.

Additionally, I disagree with Rafa's summary of events; Rafa served incredibly well as Shield (MoFA) during that era, but there were many events that remained solely in realm of myself (as Sovereign) and QTUN (as Vizier). I don't necessarily see Vanguard as being more proactive than Mushroom Kingdom in assisting with forming Karma, but I do believe we were more effective (partly because of the after effects of MK being blacklisted) and, contrary to what Rafa said, had been operating with the goal of toppling Pacifica since our very formation. For instance, Vanguard entered the Karma War with a set of treaties that had mostly been finalised by December '08, with the addition of C&G membership in February '09. Our treaty list was designed intentionally, methodically, and with a singular goal - to play a leading role in bringing about what would eventually become Karma.

Vanguard and Mushroom Kingdom complemented one another, however. What most don't know was that the idea of Vanguard's entry in to C&G was floated several months (I'm talking 6 to 9 months) before it occurred, in the old boys club that was #luemobile, once it became apparent just how complementary our foreign affairs paths were. Hell, Vanguard and MK, at the highest levels of leadership, were discussing a bilateral treaty whilst simultaneously maintaining the public appearance of us hating one another; it was safer that way, for reasons that Rafa alluded to. Anyway, I digress - Vanguard had firm treaty links to Super Friends, the 'blue sphere', Stickmen, the VE/OV grouping, and ODN. What Vanguard was unable to do - that is, befriend Citadel, due largely to our rivalries with Old Guard and TOP - Mushroom Kingdom could do, and the puzzle was brought much closer to completion. Mushroom Kingdom's other ties also helped, and both Athens and Greenland Republic played critical roles in further solidifying ties to the blue sphere, Sparta, and so on.

Yet Vanguard, Mushroom Kingdom, and C&G's strategies were collectively just one aspect of what would lead to the manifestation of Karma, and this brings me back to my initial point. No one alliance, or even one grouping of alliances, can legitimately take the label as the prime builders of the Karma coalition. While C&G's alliances were working assiduously, so too were Ragnarok, Viridian Entente, FOK, Umbrella, GOD, and so on. Each of those alliances could easily detail a similar story to what I told above, which is why it's such !@#$%^&* whenever anyone tries to parade around as if they built Karma with their own two hands.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Denial

[Monster]

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1326272074' post='2897329']
Almost everyone likes to take credit for being the mastermind or prime architect of Karma; you appear to have tried it just a few posts back, claiming to hand Mushroom Kingdom a coalition on a silver platter. The truth of that era is that it was an aligning of the stars - multiple talented leaders, from various power spheres, working towards roughly the same goals. Unlike the Hegemony (and later, ex-Hegemony) propaganda at the time, there was no grand and detailed scheme, laid down months ahead, by those that would eventually comprise Karma (though some of us had hoped and planned of something similar eventuating). A great deal of luck was involved in the Karma conflict unravelling the way it did; for quite some time, in the week leading up to the NPO declaration of war, it appeared as if Vanguard, VE and GOD - and thus C&G and Super Friends - would stand alone in the inevitable defence of their treaty partners in Ordo Verde. Support for the war from some parts came hesitantly and reluctantly.

Of course, that's not to say there weren't leaders and alliances that were more proactive than others. Archon, I believe, would be the first to admit that Mushroom Kingdom receives more credit (and blame) for Karma than it warrants or even desired; it was the general public, following Archon's first speech, that gave MK a figurehead position at the front of Karma. I disagree with Rafa's summary of events; Rafa served incredibly well as Shield (MoFA) during that era, but there were many events that remained solely in realm of myself (as Sovereign) and QTUN (as Vizier). I don't necessarily see Vanguard as being more proactive than Mushroom Kingdom in assisting with forming Karma, but I do believe we were more effective (partly because of the after effects of MK being blacklisted) and, contrary to what Rafa said, had been operating with the goal of toppling Pacifica since our very formation. For instance, Vanguard entered the Karma War with a set of treaties that had mostly been finalised by December '08, with the addition of C&G membership in February '09. Our treaty list was designed intentionally, methodically, and with a singular goal - to play a leading role in bringing about what would eventually become Karma.

Vanguard and Mushroom Kingdom complemented one another, however. What most don't know was that the idea of Vanguard's entry in to C&G was floated several months (I'm talking 6 to 9 months) before it occurred, in the old boys club that was #luemobile, once it became apparent just how complementary our foreign affairs paths were. Hell, Vanguard and MK, at the highest levels of leadership, were discussing a bilateral treaty whilst simultaneously maintaining the public appearance of us hating one another; it was safer that way, for reasons that Rafa alluded to. Anyway, I digress - Vanguard had firm treaty links to Super Friends, the 'blue sphere', Stickmen, the VE/OV grouping, and ODN. What Vanguard was unable to do - that is, befriend Citadel, due largely to our rivalries with Old Guard and TOP - Mushroom Kingdom could do, and the puzzle was brought much closer to completion. Mushroom Kingdom's other ties also helped, and both Athens and Greenland Republic played critical roles in further solidifying ties to the blue sphere, Sparta, and so on.

Yet Vanguard, Mushroom Kingdom, and C&G's strategies were collectively just one aspect of what would lead to the manifestation of Karma, and this brings me back to my initial point. No one alliance, or even one grouping of alliances, can legitimately take the label as the prime builders of the Karma coalition. While C&G's alliances were working assiduously, so too were Ragnarok, Viridian Entente, FOK, Umbrella, GOD, and so on. Each of those alliances could easily detail a similar story to what I told above, which is why it's such !@#$%^&* whenever anyone tries to parade around as if they built Karma with their own two hands.
[/quote]

Except, I never said that. Essentially what happened was a lot of people had the idea at the same time. I met Xiph and Delta by mere coincidence of knowing Tulak as well. That's where the bulk of the coalition efforts took place with yours taking place externally, but in alignment with ours since we couldn't really deal with you due to TOP hating you. I didn't know them before that.

edit: since you probably won't take my word for it

We had originally used #collective for the VE-Int crisis with Gre and Umbrella committed. Bob Janova can confirm this. It was a really awkward situation since SF and LEO had signed treaties with Int to help win them over before that. Eventually, Int saw what hardballing could lead to and made a sacrifice for the greater good.

Also one of the selling points along with the long-term relations build up to the Poison Clan treaty was if they gained ties to our side, we'd have a surefire hard counter for TPF.

Also MK-TOP weren't on good terms before Karma and didn't want to treaty Gre for quite a while.

In December, the stance from MK was one of reluctance. That changed later on, but it took time.

Final edit: The issue of MK-TOP was so explicit that I frantically got Umb/NV/MK off the IRON front because I was worried about MK or NV getting hit. Also because those alliances weren't really properly suited to one of the most substantial upper tiers in the game at the time.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Roquentin

[Denial]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326272261' post='2897330']
Except, I never said that. Essentially what happened was a lot of people had the idea at the same time. I met Xiph and Delta by mere coincidence of knowing Tulak as well. [b]That's where the bulk of the coalition efforts took place with yours taking place externally[/b], but in alignment with ours since we couldn't really deal with you due to TOP hating you. I didn't know them before that.

edit: since you probably won't take my word for it

We had originally used #collective for the VE-Int crisis with Gre and Umbrella committed. Bob Janova can confirm this. It was a really awkward situation since SF and LEO had signed treaties with Int to help win them over before that. Eventually, Int saw what hardballing could lead to and made a sacrifice for the greater good.
[/quote]
I do take your word for such groupings existing - I was fully aware of them - but the bold statement is the type of sentiment that my previous post was aimed at (whether it's posted by you, or anyone else). What was your external was our internal, and vice versa. Yes, a sizeable group of alliances came together for that ridiculous ODN/Int spat with VE; Vanguard found itself in the middle of it, being fed information by friends and allies on both sides. Yet that did not form the basis of the "bulk" of the Karma coalition in terms of plotting, planning, or scheming. As I said previously, it was far from guaranteed that anyone besides our respective blocs would assist VE/Vanguard/GOD in defending Ordo Verde - not until NPO declared war in a mediated peace discussion. Further, I can guarantee that half the alliances you'd list from those discussions would have also sat in separate discussion channels with Vanguard - more than half if you include those that would have done the same with MK, or Athens, and so on. I mean, there's a reason we were all allied, right?

Karma was quite a special conflict in this regard. Never before, or since, had there been such a diffuse assembly of alliances, each making substantial plans in their own corners, but uniting relatively effectively towards a common goal when required.

[Monster]

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1326275062' post='2897332']
I do take your word for such groupings existing - I was fully aware of them - but the bold statement is the type of sentiment that my previous post was aimed at (whether it's posted by you, or anyone else). What was your external was our internal, and vice versa. Yes, a sizeable group of alliances came together for that ridiculous ODN/Int spat with VE; Vanguard found itself in the middle of it, being fed information by friends and allies on both sides. Yet that did not form the basis of the "bulk" of the Karma coalition in terms of plotting, planning, or scheming. As I said previously, it was far from guaranteed that anyone besides our respective blocs would assist VE/Vanguard/GOD in defending Ordo Verde - not until NPO declared war in a mediated peace discussion. Further, I can guarantee that half the alliances you'd list from those discussions would have also sat in separate discussion channels with Vanguard - more than half if you include those that would have done the same with MK, or Athens, and so on. I mean, there's a reason we were all allied, right?

Karma was quite a special conflict in this regard. Never before, or since, had there been such a diffuse assembly of alliances, each making substantial plans in their own corners, but uniting relatively effectively towards a common goal when required.
[/quote]

The issue is, the Bastion working group established working relationships that could have not been done without. Honestly, Umbrella was always going to go in given its Triumvirate at the time and the relationships established with Xavii and I in particular. It's why I was the first Citadel to commit, much to the chagrin of others. I merely tried to convince OV to try to appear reasonable because it was going to screw us over in terms of the other Citadel alliances if we didn't. Well, FCC would have gone in for sure as well. As I have said, I affected the outcomes of various fronts simply because we were the glue between Cit and the rest.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Roquentin

[Denial]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326275438' post='2897337']
[b]The issue is, the Bastion working group established working relationships that could have not been done without.[/b] Honestly, Umbrella was always going to go in given its Triumvirate at the time and the relationships established with Xavii and I in particular. It's why I was the first Citadel to commit, much to the chagrin of others. I merely tried to convince OV to try to appear reasonable because it was going to screw us over in terms of the other Citadel alliances if we didn't. Well, FCC would have gone in for sure as well. As I have said, I affected the outcomes of various fronts simply because we were the glue between Cit and the rest.
[/quote]
I don't disagree with the statement in bold. All I am saying is that the process you're referring to was just one piece of the puzzle, and certainly not a larger piece than any of the others.

Many people may have had 'intentions' to support VE/Vanguard/GOD (and thus C&G + SF) with their defence of OV, but it was fairly lonely for quite some time - this is something that all leaders of Vanguard, VE, and GOD have posted about extensively in the past.

As for the rest, I don't really care for engaging with you about what you believe you affected or didn't affect. I really don't know why you have this rather odd compulsion to be recognised. You, and Umbrella more broadly, were important but minor players in the Karma era; a tag that fits everyone involved, really. You have a much greater chance of persuading people of your supposed brilliance by talking up events of the 12 to 18 months, a period during which Umbrella's influence has been pervasive and largely admirable.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Denial

[Monster]

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1326276035' post='2897338']
I don't disagree with the statement in bold. All I am saying is that the process you're referring to was just one piece of the puzzle, and certainly not a larger piece than any of the others.

Many people may have had 'intentions' to support VE/Vanguard/GOD (and thus C&G + SF) with their defence of OV, but it was fairly lonely for quite some time - this is something that all leaders of Vanguard, VE, and GOD have posted about extensively in the past.

As for the rest, I don't really care for engaging with you about what you believe you affected or not. I really don't know why you have this rather odd compulsion to be recognised. You, and Umbrella more broadly, were important but minor players in the Karma era; a tag that fits everyone involved, really. You have a much greater chance of persuading people of your supposed brilliance by talking up events of the 12 to 18 months, a period during which Umbrella's influence has been pervasive and largely admirable.
[/quote]

I doubt GOD or OV had any real doubts as to our intentions.

My desire to be recognised only comes from the efforts to knock me down. That is it. I didn't care to ever bring any of it up to anyone outside of Umbrella until that. When people can actually say that I've done nothing and think they're saying the truth or that I was a great bungler, I'm going to want to dispute it.

Keep in mind the alliance that got the recognition got a solid joining boost as a consequence and I rarely complained. They had struggled with member retention in the past(I knew about the problem all too well) and it had catapulted them to the top of the game.

The rest of 2009 didn't go so well for me for various reasons, but I did keep at it. Hell one of the major ones was that particular alliance was the new happening place to be and a lot of people wanted to go there.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Roquentin

[kriekfreak]

I think Denial is absolutely spot on, there were many groups of people working towards the same goal (the destruction of NPO) and I don't think it's fair to all parties involved to try to take the spotlight on this. The coalition appointed (sort of) Archon and LiquidMercury as figurehead because we knew they were one of the best at what they were send to do. Archon as political leader and LM as military leader. This is why MK as a whole were thought to be the instigators by mostly Ex-Heg (NPO and co) but in reality it was just Archon as our figurehead and an alignment of interests of a large diverse part of planet Bob.

[Monster]

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1326277246' post='2897342']
I think Denial is absolutely spot on, there were many groups of people working towards the same goal (the destruction of NPO) and I don't think it's fair to all parties involved to try to take the spotlight on this. The coalition appointed (sort of) Archon and LiquidMercury as figurehead because we knew they were one of the best at what they were send to do. Archon as political leader and LM as military leader. This is why MK as a whole were thought to be the instigators by mostly Ex-Heg (NPO and co) but in reality it was just Archon as our figurehead and an alignment of interests of a large diverse part of planet Bob.
[/quote]

I'm not trying to overemphasize on an individual level. LM was the best choice since he had said he spent months working out the war in advance and the fact that he was in Gre(he hadn't done it before), when we were iffy about what their gov would do. He wasn't Gov at the time(knocked out of Executor in an election), so it was a tricky situation to begin with. He was not in the Citadel government channels and did not know about anyone's intentions outside of possibly his own alliance. Even then it was pretty iffy as to where they'd actually go in terms of deployment due to the ToAs.

The two main issues at the onset were "How are we going to handle NPO and IRON?" due to Karma's lack of real upper tiers( I recall the biggest Umbrella nation was like #67 when compared to NPO) which resulted in stuff like Kingdom of Dark getting out of PM hitting some VE/RoK nations and going back in.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Roquentin