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Captain Enema
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Does everyone have some sort of understanding as to what metagaming is?


2 big examples of metagaming I've seen in the last week..


1) Reading a private message between other parties.

Yo, look, you aren't mind readers.. if the message is tagged secured, private, classified or something like that..

It is just that.. private.

You can not use that knowledge to influence your roleplay.

2) Using OOC knowledge to benefit IC actions.

Seriously, I mean good lord... if you just don't know something in-character.. don't try to weasel around it. Just take the hit.

No need to try to get shifty just so you can worm your way out of a situation.

An example, you suddenly prepare your military for war when you get information on IRC about a potential war.

You didn't observe that in roleplay, therefore you shouldn't be using the knowledge from IRC.





Look, I realize new members of the community learn at different rates. But over the years I've seen there are two types of people. There are the types of people who ask questions and tend to stick around and there are those who ask nothing and get blasted off the map.

Ask questions...

Also, why do you feel compelled to respond immediately to a potential crisis? If you are unsure how to proceed wait until you've gotten some advice on it. Chances are most of these problems will resolve themselves without you doing more than a few posts.

Wait for a bit.. ask for advice.. think about what you are going to do and MORE importantly think about how it will affect you.

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[quote name='Tidy Bowl Man' timestamp='1325398941' post='2889916']
2) Using OOC knowledge to benefit IC actions.[/quote]

Pretty hard to draw this particular line in some circumstances. For example, if A is working to do something to B using a entirely separate RP which is not used to give advantage to A's regular nation, and B's ally/friend C suddenly starts spy attacks on A (while having historically good relations with A), is this the use of OOC knowledge or not? Furthermore, if iamthey had sent Isaac MatthewII a PM to elawyer, is this metagaming or not?

Finally, the thinnest line of all: What if A uses a complete throwaway BS RP (like say an obscure terrorist attack, or expelling non-existing people) to declare war on B? OOC or not?



PS: Being a devil's advocate is fun :)

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[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1325399806' post='2889926']
Pretty hard to draw this particular line in some circumstances. For example, if A is working to do something to B using a entirely separate RP which is not used to give advantage to A's regular nation, and B's ally/friend C suddenly starts spy attacks on A (while having historically good relations with A), is this the use of OOC knowledge or not? Furthermore, if iamthey had sent Isaac MatthewII a PM to elawyer, is this metagaming or not?

Finally, the thinnest line of all: What if A uses a complete throwaway BS RP (like say an obscure terrorist attack, or expelling non-existing people) to declare war on B? OOC or not?



PS: Being a devil's advocate is fun :)
[/quote]

Nope. :smug:

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[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1325399806' post='2889926']
Pretty hard to draw this particular line in some circumstances. For example, if A is working to do something to B using a entirely separate RP which is not used to give advantage to A's regular nation, and B's ally/friend C suddenly starts spy attacks on A (while having historically good relations with A), is this the use of OOC knowledge or not? Furthermore, if iamthey had sent Isaac MatthewII a PM to elawyer, is this metagaming or not?

Finally, the thinnest line of all: What if A uses a complete throwaway BS RP (like say an obscure terrorist attack, or expelling non-existing people) to declare war on B? OOC or not?



PS: Being a devil's advocate is fun :)
[/quote]


Only in your world is the line between outright cheating and at least making a good faith attempt at playing the game properly so easily twisted.

You know what metagaming is, more than me, you've done it often enough.

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[quote name='Tidy Bowl Man' timestamp='1325402259' post='2889947']
Only in your world is the line between outright cheating and at least making a good faith attempt at playing the game properly so easily twisted. [/quote]
I'm just showing the new ones that they shouldn't plunge right in without thinking about the issues, espeically with the recent three people (one is a constant eyesore, one changed places because of future RP details passed on through OOC, and one made moved without realizing just how closed certain relations are) It's more of an advice ;)

Besides, the ones who've been around for a while know that line, but I doubt the new ones do.


[quote name='Tidy Bowl Man' timestamp='1325402259' post='2889947']You know what metagaming is, more than me, you've done it often enough.[/quote]
Right on the first count, wrong on the second count. I've never sinned more than been sinned against ;)

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I think you only really cross the line into metagaming when you apply knowledge ICly that you couldn't know except by drawing from an OOC source. This differs in a critical sense from the application of knowledge you know/should know ICly but are prompted to in OOC.

Isaac applied knowledge that his representative should have already been aware of (that there was no expulsion clause or amendment clause), he was only prompted to it by my post. I would say this is fairly different from say peeking in at another player's top secret meeting and deploying troops in response, or making a lucky guess with a cruise missile to target an enemy leader. Maybe it looks bad, but I don't think it is any different than researching someone's fact book to understand their weapons or asking them questions about their use to provide an intelligible response in war. Its just this time instead of asking what a ultrasuperduper max yeild level A-324 output drive is, the implied question would have been 'what does the USAN treaty say'.

As a further illustration of the distinction, a true example of metagaming (in my interpretation anyway) would have been if the USAN members held a secret meeting excluding gallifrey and in response he made an off the cuff statement to each of them pointing out that no expulsion clause exists. As he couldn't know that an expulsion vote was taking place he would have been applying ooc knowledge in making that statement.

Edited by iamthey
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Isaac, in my opinion, was metagaming.Whether he knew or not isn't relevant. He clearly didn't know, which is his own problem, until you pointed it out to him. He immediately posted IC in such a manner that he would not have up to that point. It's just not in a way I'd get all that concerned with. Certainly not enough to stop him, but more than enough to draw his attention to it, sort of seems harmless in my opinion as I don't see it altering the outcome of the rp in his favor anyway.

I'm more concerned with people reading private messages and other forms of metagaming such as the one you suggest.

At this juncture I'd prefer not to debate specific members of the community as there is a tendency to overly focus on them alone. It appears to me as if there numerous people not so caught up on the whole concept of metagaming and even god moding.

Seeing alot of he-man style characters running around as well.

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Hahah, if I play as my soon-to-be characters knowing anything from beyond the ice, that would be metagaming for me. XD

In any case, I agree with the initial statement in principle, but disagree with the assertion that being informed OOC of something you should already know IC-wise is a form of metagaming. It's simply informing the player of something that they should, technically, already be aware of.

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If you want to beat the drum of no metagaming and no mind reading, for CNRP, then there is a laundry list of offenses that even the staunchest of realism Rpers here violate. Even if I hadn't of lurked for as long as I had before joining I'd have noticed many of them already.

Faulting new rpers for taking time to grow into the community is the fastest way to stop that growth. This is the second such thread giving a blanket list of negatives for new roleplay, and it reminds me of bad management. One person makes a mistake so they get everyone together to say the group has a failing so no one person has to rationalize feeling bad.

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[quote name='Sands' timestamp='1325458038' post='2890196']
If you want to beat the drum of no metagaming and no mind reading, for CNRP, then there is a laundry list of offenses that even the staunchest of realism Rpers here violate. Even if I hadn't of lurked for as long as I had before joining I'd have noticed many of them already.

Faulting new rpers for taking time to grow into the community is the fastest way to stop that growth. This is the second such thread giving a blanket list of negatives for new roleplay, and it reminds me of bad management. One person makes a mistake so they get everyone together to say the group has a failing so no one person has to rationalize feeling bad.
[/quote]

People don't rp to be realistic, if I wanted realistic I'd be content with my otherwise dull life and not even bother. Wrap your head around that quickly and you won't end up being laughed at for economic formulas or other such notions. Common sense is about the only guideline and even that's a blurry one at times given the advanced technology people use.

I gave up giving a crap whether the community grows or not a couple weeks ago. The band always marches on despite people wailing, "CNRP ISH DYING OMG!"

I do think it is not too much to ask that people do not read another rper's private mail. I do think it is not too much to ask for people to act on OOC knowledge. If you can't do that, I figure it is pretty easy to discover on your own what you can do by actually rping or seriously.... just asking.

Last, this isn't kindergarten, I don't feel at all obligated to provide a rosy view of the situation by accentuating the positive for those who have grown up the "can do no wrong" formula of child rearing. I'm not managing anything around here. I don't really care if new members stay or go. That from the very beginning of CNRP has been the responsibility of new rpers. I have not, will not, and will never be obligated to make a laundry list of positives and helpful encouragements for anyone.

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False positive reinforcement is the other end of that bad management I mentioned, and I don't support that side either.

If you're going to talk about people not doing something right though, name names. Why should anyone change their ways if all the comments are grumbling at a faceless group's problems that are really theirs.

If I am doing something wrong I expect someone to address me directly about it.


As you said, this isn't kindergarten, so why are there two threads that don't want to just outright say who they are talking about. Don't play high school popularity footsie, and middle management best hits of the 90's.

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[quote name='Sands' timestamp='1325466292' post='2890257']
False positive reinforcement is the other end of that bad management I mentioned, and I don't support that side either.[/quote]

Can't be bothered to care what you support on either end of the spectrum. That would imply I give a damn.

[quote]If you're going to talk about people not doing something right though, name names. Why should anyone change their ways if all the comments are grumbling at a faceless group's problems that are really theirs.[/quote]

That got sorted out elsewhere already, do try to keep up.

[quote]If I am doing something wrong I expect someone to address me directly about it. [/quote]

That's nice and that is what was done in the other events.


[quote]As you said, this isn't kindergarten, so why are there two threads that don't want to just outright say who they are talking about. Don't play high school popularity footsie, and middle management best hits of the 90's.
[/quote]

You seem to be under the impression that CNRP is a 'managed' community. No one works for anyone here. I am not required to 'manage' anyone, nor will I do so. Our GM staff does not 'manage' us at all, nor do experienced rpers 'manage' their fellow players. The problems that prompted this thread were dealt with on another thread. The posting of this thread was intended as a general reminder and discussion, more importantly a discussion.

We all do our own thing and occasionally those things coincide with other people's things on a frequent ongoing basis.

And why would I manage anything? I do that at work enough as it is, CNRP is supposed to be fun. If I wanted to manage in CNRP I'd have given it up months ago.

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[quote name='Subtleknifewielder' timestamp='1325450960' post='2890148']
Hahah, if I play as my soon-to-be characters knowing anything from beyond the ice, that would be metagaming for me. XD

In any case, I agree with the initial statement in principle, but disagree with the assertion that being informed OOC of something you should already know IC-wise is a form of metagaming. It's simply informing the player of something that they should, technically, already be aware of.
[/quote]


True points, but there are different levels of metagaming. Some I'd bother with, some I'd just find more amusing in nature and comment on, and others I just ignore completely.

For example, in IRC you are making plans to attack me with another rper. I suddenly post a massive national preparation thread to make ready for war that by all accounts should be a huge surprise to me.

That's an unacceptable level of ooc to ic.

Isaac and Iamthey.. metagamish, and while worthy of comment, not exactly alarming as it doesn't alter the outcome for Isaac.

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[quote name='Tidy Bowl Man' timestamp='1325468917' post='2890285']
True points, but there are different levels of metagaming. Some I'd bother with, some I'd just find more amusing in nature and comment on, and others I just ignore completely.

For example, in IRC you are making plans to attack me with another rper. I suddenly post a massive national preparation thread to make ready for war that by all accounts should be a huge surprise to me.

That's an unacceptable level of ooc to ic.

Isaac and Iamthey.. metagamish, and while worthy of comment, not exactly alarming as it doesn't alter the outcome for Isaac.
[/quote]
Indeed, there are different levels, from national all the way down to a few minor character details.

The first example you list, is as you say, one of those blatant no-no's, if you'll forgive the childish speak. :P

I wouldn't know about the others... *grins sheepishly*

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